Talk:2006 Transnistrian independence referendum/Archive 2

Trolling
Would an independent third party please review the section above and find any evidence of trolling? User:MariusM has stated that he does not want to participate in the discussion, and says that this is because he does not "want to feed troll". As the main participant in a reasonably argued treatise, I take offense at being called a troll. The person yesterday who argued with him was without any grounds threatened with vandalism. Quite frankly, this is disruptive behavior on the part of MariusM, as is his further refusal to engage in discussion and his unwillingness to seek consensus. - Mauco 17:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The person with which I argued yesterday accepted the idea to keep the disputed paragraph in the article.--MariusM 15:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be good to get his views on this Talk page again now, since there has been more discussion. It is always best, when two parties dispute, to get a third party. I don't know if he is neutral, but a third set of eyes can help. (And please don't call him a vandal again, or call me a troll). - Mauco 16:10, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

"Political climate"
I have already suggested to EvilAlex to write an article Internal politics of Transnistria, where you can have a detailed, referenced section about criticism. In this article you cannot collect arbitrary episode of political harassment `'mikka (t) 18:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, the colleague has already added all of that to Politics of Transnistria and most of it he then furthermore added to the main Transnistria article as well. In this page, we have links to both of these, of course. To highlight it even more, I furthermore added a "See Also" section with the link. In my opinion, we are already overdoing it without the need to repeat everything we know about Transnistria in every single article (and especially not such a narrowly focused article as this one, which does not deal with politics or human rights in general, but merely with one single event that took place on a specific date in September 2006). - Mauco 19:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Mauco, in the main Transnistria article you took out the refference at Dignitas members arrest on the ground that we have already a separate article about referendum, now you want to take out this fact even in this article. Is it related with referendum? I believe yes, but I didn't put my belief in the article, just tell the facts and readers will think for themselves. Only a small part of the people who read Wikipedia will make a reasearch trough all Transnistria articles, so, we can repeat some informations.--MariusM 08:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * What you are trying to do here, friend, is obvious to anyone who knows about the subject. You are trying to distort the truth by taking an old and unrelated event and mixing it into a current event, so as to make it seem as though the two are related. By doing so, you want people to believe that the referendum was rigged because no one was allowed to campaign for Moldova and to have the readers think that somehow people got arrested for having an opposing view. But none of this happened or you would be able to present more compelling evidence. So please do not persist in your attempt to smuggle intellectual dishonesty into what is currently a fairly good and relatively objective article which many of us here have worked hard on. - Mauco 13:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Is not an old event,


 * (sorry for interrupting. Just to clarify: I referred to the 2001 ban). - Mauco 15:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * it was less than one month before the referendum. The fact that the political climate in Transnistria don't allow the free expression of the will of the people is not only my opinion, is the opinion of international comunity (see Ukrainian foreign ministry opinion, for example). So, don't try to push your POV that referendum in Transnistria was fair. Intelectual dishonesty is to cover true facts and to dismiss any criticism as biased. I was not even claiming to state in the article that it was a connection between the arrest and the referendum, but the facts should be presented in Wikipedia--MariusM 14:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * We disagree on what you call "true facts". Since you can't even read the language of Transnistria, your view is tainted by Moldovan/Romanian press. I am sorry, but they do not report the full picture, and please don't retort with "Mauco says so". This is not my own opinion, but it is a known and documented fact. I can quote half a dozen reputable sources on this, including the Saferworld survey from the United Kingdom. - Mauco 15:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Mika, I added reference, as you wanted.--MariusM 08:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You can add reference, and the fact may be true, or it may not (as you know, this was hotly contested among the different courts of law at the time)... but that still doesn't make it relevant. It happened in 2001, in a different context. No parties are banned in 2006 and no one was prevented for campaigning for what they wanted in this election. Will you stay on topic, please? - Mauco 13:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * In 2001, as in 2006, still Smirnov is in power. So, is not different context. Don't try to fool Wikipedia readers claiming that anybody in Transnistria can openly ask for unification with Moldova, even smaller requests (like using latin script for Moldovan language) were met with repression.--MariusM 14:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, they can. The situation has changed enormously since 2001. Did you read the latest report from United Nations Development Programme? They laud the openness and transparency, and the co-operation that Transnistria gave to its representatives. They also note that this was not the case before 2001. - Mauco 15:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

You can put a link to this report if you have. But I wonder if their work is about the rights to ask for reunification.--MariusM 15:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I see you have a new approach: whatever facts shows that political freedom is missing in Transnistria, those are old facts (even if are from this year, like "Dignitas" case). What political change can be if same people are in power? Only after Brejnev/Andropov/Chernenko died a political change occur in Soviet Union. Political change with same persons in power is nonsense.--MariusM 15:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Would you please assume good faith'? The Dignitas much-ado-about-nothing is unrelated to the referendum. Period. The ban is old and also unrelated. See above. Stay on topic. - Mauco 15:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If Transnistria would be a normal democratic country the arrest of Dignitas members will be discussed by Transnistrian media, not only by Chişinău's media. Even if the arrest is related only with the bus explosion (don't you think the bus explosion is an interesting case for media?). Why is not discussed in Transnistrian media (except media targeted on foreigners, to deny any wrongdoing of authorities)? Because is not allowed.--MariusM 15:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * And why do you assume that it wasn't discussed by the local media? You do not live in Transnistria, so you have no access to the papers that are sold in the street. Nor do you speak or read Russian, so even if you got the press you wouldn't be able to read it. Remember that there are six opposition newspapers which are not banned and not controlled in any way. They write what they want (including about the bombings and the arrests). Until this issue is settled, please refrain from changing the article again. It is not considered good Wiki Etiquette to do so until other editors get a chance to weigh in. - Mauco 15:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

You should give an example of Dignitas NGO being able to express its position in Transnistrian media (not the position of authorities which justify Dignitas members arrest).--MariusM 09:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Dignitas NGO does not seem to an active organization. Taran is active in the Social Democratic party in Moldova and his Dignitas is just a piece of paper in a desk drawer in his bedroom. In fact, I was even surprised that they could find 4 members to bring in for questioning. Before that happened, I didn't think that they had that large a membership. Have they ever made a press release? Or organized an event? They seem to exist merely so that they can obtain funding and they don't rank among leading opposition NGOs in the survey of Transnistrian civil society which was published earlier this year (an independent survey made with Western funds). If Dignitas does an event or puts out a press release, it is very likely that state media will ignore it, but I can guarantee you that the opposition media will pick it up and print it. Like any valid news source, however, they will give it coverage proportional to the notability. This principle means that if the president of Romania says that Moldova and Romania should be united, then it is front page news and gets a lot of coverage, whereas if an unknown 4-member organizations says the same thing, then it gets a one paragraph mention on page 5. All newspapers operate this way. Supporters of the organization in question will of course not like it (because they think that their opinion matters as much as that of the president of Romania), but it is the principle of notability and it drives all professional news coverage. It is not an indication of bias but merely the application of common sense. Anyone who reads this Talk page can see that this is what drives most of my editing, too. - Mauco 13:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * How do you know that Dignitas has only 4 members? You assume Smirnov's KGB is so efficient that will not let a single pro-moldovan activist unarested? Dignitas made press release and Chişinău media mentioned, Transnistria's media didn't (not even pre-approved opposition, which should be a Russian-only opposition). Why? Because is not allowed. But I don't understand why is not allowed to mention Dignitas on Wikipedia.--MariusM 17:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * In answer to your questions: 1. I follow Transnistria closely. 2. Newspapers everywhere in the world, and not just in Transnistria, assign column space based on notability. An almost-nonexisting astroturf group with no traction is not notable to readers, so they still get mentioned, just not on the front page. It is not censorship. A similar group in England or USA would find the same problem in getting free press. 3. You are allowed to mention Dignitas in Wikipedia where it is appropriate and relevant, and in most articles (except possibly human rights) Dignitas would fail WP:NN blatantly. - Mauco 20:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * PS: The term "Smirnov's KGB" is a term used by Romanian/Moldovan yellow press. There is no KGB in Transnistria. There is State Security, just like in Romania and Moldova. It is called MGB (sure, a bad choice of acronym but only lazy thinkers would equate this with KGB without checking the facts first). It is not "Smirnov's", but Transnistria's. It is under parliamentary oversight. In fact, the local mass media covered the parliamentary oversight committee quite a bit last week. Why? Because unlike your nonchalant characterization of MGB as "so efficient", it is actually quite the opposite. Parliament was concerned about this and complaining about the way that organization uses its budget and its manpower. I realize that Transnistria must be hard for you to get a grip on since you don't know the main language of the local press, but before you make sweeping characterizations of something which you apparently know too little about, feel free to ask from those of us who are actually up to speed on the subject. I am sure that I am not the only one here who has shown a willingness to help out and share my knowledge of the situation on the ground. - Mauco 20:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

You didn't answer to my question: how you know that Dignitas has only 4 members? You made original research or this is what MGB told you? (I recognize, I made a mistake, is not KGB, is MGB, however, I don't believe is a big difference). The problem with Dignitas is that their members were arrested - this should be a reason for local media reports. What I see is that only media from Chisinau made reports about this, Transnistrian media kept silence. This is not normal for a democratic country (but nobody in the world, except Abhazia, Russia, you and few hard-line Russian nationalists in Wikipedia claim Transnistria is democratic). Suppose that is no conection between referendum and the arrests, everything is only about the bus explosion case (which inefficient MGB was not able to solve, as I know). Even in this case, 4 arrests conected with the explosion should attract media interest (isn't the explosion a good story for local press?).--MariusM 07:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Here we go again... So now, it seems, I am an agent of the MGB. These kinds of personal accusations are not productive to a good editing environment, friend. And besides, I did answer your question. - Mauco 12:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Intelectual dishonesty
Mauco, when censored the paragraph he don't like, tell that I was reverted by 4 different editors, suggesting that his position has a large agreement. In fact: one editor is Mauco himself, second Tzekai which agreed that paragraph should stay but wanted a small change in phrasing, third Permabuco who didn't revert me but Tzekai and in fact didn't express any opinion for or against the disputed paragraph and forth Mikkalai who had doubts about a part of the paragraph and asked for a refference, and meantime I added refference. Mauco, please stop with those misleadings comments.--MariusM 09:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I reverted that paragraph at least once as well. -- int19h 09:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sometimes a disinterested editor will also jump in to revert things just because he or she wants to stop an edit war and force the two sides to seek agreement in Talk instead. FrancisTyers (who is not active on this page, but sometimes joins the main Transnistria article) is one of those. The reason they do this is not to take sides but just because they realize that disagreement carried out in main namespace is disproductive and takes time away from productive editing. - Mauco 13:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The charge of censorship is unjustified, as are ad hominen attacks. - Mauco 01:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I find your behavior unjustified, Mauco -- this is a bad article, and you're the reason why this is so. An "innocent" person wandering in (i.e., most readers, for whom this will come up in a search) would get no sense of what this referendum actually was. The opening lines should clearly state that the referendum was illegitimate according to most entities, etc. The rest of the article is heavily slanted. "Both banks of the Dniester" are not equally democratic, and the persistent attempts to exclude information on just how anti-democratic the PMR is are led by you. --Pēteris Cedriņš 21:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Please - this discussion is not about Mauco, but about the article. Let's stick to just that. &mdash; Khoikhoi 22:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The article is awful. It wouldn't appear in any decent encyclopedia. Why is that? --Pēteris Cedriņš 22:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure, but it would help if you gave specific examples on why it's awful, rather than blaming users. If there's a problem, try fixing it. &mdash; Khoikhoi 22:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Can't -- it's locked. --Pēteris Cedriņš 22:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That doesn't stop you from giving suggestions on how to fix it... &mdash; Khoikhoi 22:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have. --Pēteris Cedriņš 22:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

A Request for Mediation was asked in order to fix the article. Khoikhoi, you may join the mediation dispute, and maybe you can convince Mauco to agree to mediation. I asked for mediation also in the Union of Moldavians in Pridnestrovie article, and Mauco didn't sign for agreement in 7 days (this is why that case is actually on arbitration).--MariusM 22:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Why did MariusM not follow the recommended sequence of steps in WP:DR? Mediation is uncalled for when we have not attempted dispute resolution in the proper order first. This was the same modus operandi employed in the "Union"-article, and I pointed out the error of this several times in a polite fashion, just as I am doing now. - Mauco 04:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Mauco, we had very long discussions in this an other Transnistria-related articles. I made attempts to make a compromise with you, but your goal is only to keep in Wikipedia's articles your POV. As the article is blocked in the way you like, it seems you don't want mediation, just to gain time. Please agree to mediation, is not a problem with only us two. We will see if the Mediation comitee will reject the request, I believe it will not be the case. It seems you have plenty of time, but I have other things to do that engaging in very long discussion. Please keep your arguments for the mediation case, not need to add them here.--MariusM 14:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)