Talk:2007–2008 Kenyan crisis

Page name
I notice that 2007-08 riots in Kenya links to this article. Perhaps it is a better page name than this one? Because really, I expect that the violence will quiet down sometime this century, so the title will have to change anyway. &mdash;ScouterSig 17:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I set up the previous page. Well, it is reasonable to assume that it will stop once this year so 2007-08 makes sense to me. But I agree, clashes are more appropriate than riots, it has all got too hot already. --Tone 17:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's standard naming to have "present" in events of which we don't know whether they will terminate soon or not. — Nightstallion 18:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be better to call it Kenya Riots 2008 because the abundant of action happened in 2008. JoshHuzzuh Talk  20:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * let's keep it exact -- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 22:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, 2007 has to be included. But according to the present, we have for example 2007-08 Writers Guild of America strike that is still going on. Shouldn't we have a unified style in either case? --Tone 22:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just fixed that, they were using the wrong dash (- instead of –), too. — Nightstallion 01:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Relating to 2007-08 riots in Kenya and 2007–2008 Kenyan crisis, shouldn't we mege them? They're both related to the same thing. It seems appropriate.Ilikepie2221 (talk) 18:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I noticed that one of the pages is a redirect.Ilikepie2221 (talk) 18:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Article title
I agree that the title should be changed; I'm going to go ahead and change it, since we appear to have a rough consensus here. Please continue the discussion here if you wish. -Juansmith (talk) 23:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * We don't have a rough consensus and your move was done the wrong way so I reverted it. However, we can still discuss the change of the name. --Tone 07:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair point; sorry about that. It's not a situation I'd encountered before. But for the record, I agree that "2007-present" is not as accurate as it could be, and not consistent with the usual style for article titles (see the WGA strike example). If a consensus is reached, I think it should be moved and redirected. -Juansmith (talk) 07:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know who did it, but the new title (Civil unrest in Kenya (2007–2008)) is definitely an improvement. -Juansmith (talk) 03:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Who against whom?
As it is true that the main target are the Kikuyu it is obviously not true that it is Kikuyu vs. Luo. New York Times has it today gain in its editorial but that does not make it more true. The anti-Kibaki anger is strong amongst Luos, Kalenjin and on the coast as far as reports come in. In their traditional areas Kibaki has been voted out. That infamous massacre by burning a church took place in a Kalenjin area. --Kipala (talk) 16:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I took out a commentary saying "this resembles the Ruanda genocide". Resemblance lies very much in the eye of the observer, To me it does not look like Rwanda (premeditated organized killing on purpose) but rather e.g. Nigeria after vote rigging (high tension exploding into senseless violence with killings according to local circumstances along communitarian lines). we should beware of joining in propaganda wars. --Kipala (talk) 09:35, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Image
The image obviously it does not show violent protesters but people jumping from a pick-up car on a street either smoke filled with tear gas or smoke from something burning. Why dont you look for a pic that fits your description or at least has some information? This one is pure guesswork. --Kipala (talk) 12:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Speculation
"The kikuyus are largely outnumbered and if ethnic cleansing occurs,they will most probably bear the most brunt as most of the other tribes seem to have formed a formidable force under the political umbrella ODM.At present,approximately 200,000 Kenyans have been displaced due to the clashes and a majority of these people are mainly kikuyus who resided in the Rift Valley province." This seems to be pure speculation/original research. Is it Wikipedia's place to tell us what will probably happen? 99.240.229.247 (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed, WP is not a place for speculations, the text was already removed. --Tone 16:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Fighting
..seems to be over-- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 11:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Nope. Two people just died this week. Editorofthewiki (talk) 23:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Map
I love the map that shows the ethnic areas. Could it be updated to include major cities and/or provinces etc.? 64.8.90.134 (talk) 17:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That is NOT a map showing ethnic areas. It shows, which candidate had the majority in which province of Kenya. You get some kind of ethnic map at the bottom of this BBC-page --Kipala (talk) 20:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * ha ha, ha :) he meant Odinga and Kibaki are two different ethnicities.. :) -- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 14:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Info Box
This inset infobox is ridiculous! "Belligerents"-listings, "commanders" - what a nonsense. It gives the impression as if Kenya police together with the listed tribes (???) under the command of president Mwai Kibaki are battling ODM with the listed tribes under tzhe command of Raila Odinga. This is not the case. Areas like Kisii are split, in all ethnis groups there are minorities which voted for "the other party", Kibaki and Odinga dont command anything but hide rather helpless from the flames they keep on fanning, though. This situation is not the right one for a nice little "Infobox Military Conflict" table. I take these lines out. I'd prefer to throw the whole box out but don`t have the time for arguing. --Kipala (talk) 23:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Somebody reverted the infobox. I repeat: The information cancelled by me is incorrect and misinformed. This is an infobox designed for a military conflict which is not appropriate for the Kenyan chaos. If at all, it can only be used in an abbreviated form as it stands. There are no "commanders" - this is absolutely incorrect - none of these two people mentioned in here has a clue what is going on in their country and they have not been able to control things. --Kipala (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You're correct about this. It isn't a military conflict and should not be represented as one. Everyking (talk) 00:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Weasel words/POV
I know absolutely nothing about this issue, but this paragraph has problems:

''The anger stems from a belief that the Kikuyu community in Kenya has dominated the country since independence. It has been said that the violence is due to the allegedly stolen election results which is up to now just an allegation. Observations prove that after every elections most areas experiencing violence have always experienced the same only that this time the leaders have actually fueled the violence thus the high rate.''

According to WP:Weasel words, describing a belief without a concrete source is a problem ("anger stems from a belief that..."), "it has been said that", "observations prove that". The uncertainty gives the impression of a POV hostile to those who make "allegations" about the "allegedly stolen" results.

The way this should be written is with a clear source saying that opposition leader so-and-so said such-and-such. 70.15.114.2 (talk) 19:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Keeping balance
I never liked the idea of this article because I don't think that wikipedia should do newspapers' jobs. Now we start getting the partisan views which is nothing to be astonished of. Wakuria added to the already not too elegant opening now it reads that Odinga's supporters kill Kikuyu people. That goes too far. True: the mobs killing Kikuyus probably mostly voted for Odinga in Dec 2007. But then most of the killings so far took place in Rift Valley which saw the same type of violence during election time 1992. Reality unfortunately is more complex. I change that one. --Kipala (talk) 00:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Name
Political crisis is not good. There's an ethnic violence with deeper backgrounds than the elections going on -- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 12:09, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * However, civil unrest is also not good enough, as it ignores the political dimension. Any other ideas? — Nightstallion 20:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What about simple 2007-08 Kenya crisis or something like that? --Tone 21:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that might work. We should use either "2007–present" or "2007–2008", though. — Nightstallion 23:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am surprised why no sources call it a civil war. -- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 14:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur, dubbing it as a civil war seems fitting. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 08:29, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

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