Talk:2007 24 Hours of Le Mans

Starting time change
I can't find it now but last year at this time I remember reading here at wikipedia that the traditional start time of 4 pm for the race was changed to 3 pm due to the desire to avoid viewer conflict with the World Cup. The race began at 3 pm again today. Do any of you members of the wiki sports car racing project know why this was? Has this become a permenant change? Do you think that it is worth a mention either here or on the main page for the race? Thanks ahead of time for any info that you can give as it is much appreciated. MarnetteD | Talk 13:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe there is elections in France on Sunday. They want to finish early so people can go vote.  I'm not entirely positive though.  The359 14:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Adrian Newey?
While looking through the drivers I noticed this driver. Is this actually the same person as the one in the article, as I'd expect this Adrian Newey to be at Indianapolis with the Formula One team he works for. - MTC 19:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, same person. He's run the Le Mans Classic events with his Ford GT40 until he wrecked it last year, and this year reached an agreement with JMB Racing to run with Joe Macari and Ben Aucott in a Ferrari F430.  They took over AF Corse's entry.  It is easily recognizable because it is running Red Bull sponsorship.
 * There were no JMB personnel at Le Mans. AF Corse was running the car for Aucott Racing Service, just as JMB does with the Maserati in FIA GT. --Pc13 08:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

GA passed
I've opted to do this review for two reasons: first, and most importantly, this is a worthy GA candidate that has been languishing in the nomination list for too long; second, I've been an occasional fan of sports car racing since I saw my first race at Oulton Park as a kid. Admittedly, they were racing things like TR6's and Jaguar E-types then though. :)

This is quite a long and detailed article, so I hope you'll forgive me if I post my comments somewhat piecemeal, as I consider a particular aspect of the article.

I'll start off with use of images:
 * The Le Mans 2007 logo in the lead has no fair use rationale. That will automatically exclude the article from achieving GA status. I suggest that you consider using the template to make sure that all the required information is given for the fair use rationale for this article.
 * ✅ I've fixed this now. I've had this problem before with uploading logos under what I believe were the proper templates and such.  I've filled out that template and hopefully it is enough.

The prose is where I see the most obvious issue that needs to be addressed; the inconsistent use of tenses. They are just randomly chosen examples, there are many more. I understand from reading the article history that the reason for this is that the article was written before the race, and then updated after the race. But this inconsistency is a serious problem. GA requires that an article is well-written, with correct grammar. Which this one isn't as yet.
 * "Times would be lead by Sébastien Bourdais ..."
 * "The first session on Thursday would begin ..."
 * "The #25 Ray Mallock Ltd. Lola and #81 LNT Panoz would be the only cars not to set a lap time ..."
 * I've gone through the Test summary and Qualifying summary areas, because I mostly neglected them to correct the prose on the Race summary. I think I've fixed most of the prose in this section, but feel free to point out any more.

After I've had an opportunity to look at the article in more detail I'll post up a few more of my comments. My initial feeling is that there's no obvious reason why this shouldn't be listed as a GA – after a little bit of work – so I wish the editors bon chance with the review. I'll help where I can with the nit-picking MOS issues. --Malleus Fatuarum 20:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Further comments:
 * "It was an endurance race organised by the Automobile Club de l'Ouest (ACO) that was run continuously for 24 hours." Why is the lead explaining about the race? Isn't it organised by the ACO every year?
 * I included a bit of background for the intro, so that it wouldn't be very week with just the second paragraph. However I'm more then open to suggestion for a better intro, as mine are usually short so as it is.


 * "The public roads from the Indianapolis corner to the Porsche Curves 'were also been repaved"


 * "Teams earned automatic invitations to the event from the ACO for winning certain races and championships elsewhere in their respective classes .." and so on. Is this specific to the 2007 Le Mans event?
 * It is not specific to the 2007 event, but has also only been done since 1998. 2007 is however unique in that it was the first time the ACO specifically invited the FIA GT Championship top two.

I'm not happy with this article. I'm going to place it on hold for two days. If at the end of that time none of the issues I've raised, or that were raised in its previous pretty comprehensive review, are being addressed, then I will fail this article. If I see some effort being made to address at least some of these issues then I will extend the deadline and continue with the reviewing process. At the moment it looks to me like a candidate for a quick-fail, so let's see what you can do. --Malleus Fatuarum 22:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to say I'm surprised, it's only been two hours between you initial comments and this further review. The first made it seem like there were only some issues that needed to be fixed before it became a sure candidate for GA, now I'm unsure as to how it suddenly is a candiate for a quick failure? The359 04:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

My concern was that what appeared to be long-standing issues from an earlier review still remained to be fixed, and that might mean that the article had become orphaned. Now I see that is not the case, and that you have provided a fair-use rationale for the copyrighted logo, it won't be quick-failed, and we can carry on with the rest of the review. Thanks for the work you've done so far. --Malleus Fatuarum 13:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

You really need to check the whole article for this tense problem with "would":
 * "All other entries would have to apply to the ACO ..."
 * "The ACO would decide the rest of the entry list ..."
 * "The best overall time from all four sessions would determine the starting grid."
 * "The three Audis would eventually take over the lead ..."
 * "... many cars suffered mechanical failures that would put them out of the race."
 * "These would go in effect in 2007 for all four classes:"


 * Can you find a reference for the claim that the race stared at 3:00 pm instead of 4:00 pm because of the French elections? The official web site doesn't seem to give a reason. --Malleus Fatuarum
 * ✅ I had trouble finding this specific reference earlier, although I had heard it refered to multiple times (mostly on the radio).


 * "Rockenfeller attempted to repair his Audi to no avail, finally forced to retire. This caution would also lead to an early retirement ...". What caution?
 * The caution brought out by Rockenfeller's accident, which is mentioned earlier in saying that the safety car was required once again while repairs were made to the safety barrier.


 * "This also increased safety by allowing cars to slow themselves more efficiently using their brakes and tires on pavement". In British English "pavement" is what American English calls a sidewalk; it doesn't mean a paved area.
 * ✅ I never actually knew Brits used pavement to mean something else, only that they used tarmac.


 * "New drivers were again required to run three laps not only in daylight, but also at night in order to be allowed to race." Again? When was the last time? Is that not a normal rule?
 * ✅ This is mentioned in the Test Session, new drivers were required to set 10 laps. I've modified it to say that drivers were required to run laps again, although the number required is different.


 * "It was an endurance race organised by the Automobile Club de l'Ouest (ACO) that was run continuously for 24 hours". This sentence in the lead seems pretty redundant as it describes every 24 hour Le Mans race, not specifically this 2007 race.
 * ✅ I've removed that sentence and simply kept the class descriptions.


 * "A new tunnel for pedestrian traffic below the Mulsanne Straight immediately after Tertre Rouge was also part of the project." It was part of the project, but was it actually built?
 * ✅ Yes.


 * "The paddock behind the garages has also been re-organized, with more fan-friendly elements added." Fan-friendly doesn't sound very encyclopedic. Can you give some examples?
 * ✅ Expanded and re-written to be more encyclopedic.


 * "In the early hours, fluids were spilled on the track by the leader in GT2 ..." Was that oil? Where on the track was the spill?
 * I have not been able to determine if it was oil or radiator fluid/water that was spilled. However I do know that it was not spilled in a single spot, but instead covered about half the track starting at the Mulsanne.


 * "Both of Oreca's Saleens were the fastest in the GT1 field ..." How could they both be the fastest?
 * Now they're both the fastest. I've fixed it now. --Malleus Fatuarum 02:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Now they're both the fastest. I've fixed it now. --Malleus Fatuarum 02:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

--Malleus Fatuarum 20:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hopefully this covers the bulk of the little issues I (foolishly) missed over the months on this article. However if there's anything else feel free to mention it or edit it yourself. The359 23:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that I think we're getting there now. Here in Europe paving would be concrete slabs; tarmac would be that black stuff that roads are made out of. I'll take another look through the whole article tomorrow, or the next day at the latest, to see if there are any other issues that need to be addressed. Looking good so far though. --Malleus Fatuarum 00:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I am curious as to the reasoning for removing the terms fastest and slowest/top and lower in reference to the class structure. I think it is fairly well established that the LMP classes are faster, and the GT classes slower, with the 1s leading over the 2s. I mean, there are even specific elements of the Le Mans rules which state that the organizers intend for LMP2s to much X amount slower than LMP1s, and GT1s X amount slower than LMP2, etc. The359 04:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If that's what it had said, then I probably wouldn't have removed it. But all it said was that the GT2 cars were the slowest, it said nothing about the other classes. --Malleus Fatuarum 10:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, let's try and finish this off
Just a few things left to do I think:


 * From the Wednesday section:
 * "Marco Apicella was driving but came away uninjured."
 * "Marco Apicella was not allowed to drive due to head injuries sustained in the accident ..."
 * Doesn't seem consistent.


 * From the Finish section:
 * "After over an hour behind the safety car, the field was released to race one last time with only twelve minutes remaining. Without any actual need for racing, the field continued to run a slower than usual pace in preparation for the finish."
 * I think this needs an explanation for why there was no need for racing.


 * From the Finish section:
 * "In an attempt to ensure that the Peugeot finished, Bourdais stopped at the Ford Chicanes on the final lap, restarting once the #1 Audi had gone past to take the checkered flag."
 * Again, I think this needs an explanation. Presumably he did that to stay out of trouble until the race was over. Was there a problem with the car that made the team doubtful that it could finish the race?


 * From the Morning section:
 * "... the race-leading #2 Audi of Rinaldo Capello lost a left rear wheel ..."
 * "... Audi claimed that this was likely not the cause of the tire coming off ..."
 * Which was it, the tire or the wheel?


 * From the Test session section:
 * "The car could not return due to the damage which bent the chassis."
 * The damage was the bent chassis, the damage didn't bend the chassis.


 * From the Start section''
 * "The three Audis would eventually take over the lead during the opening hour before pit stops began."
 * There are still some occasional problems with the tense.


 * From the Morning section:
 * "the GT1-leading Aston Martin had also come off the track, damaging its front splitter."
 * What's a "splitter"?

--Malleus Fatuarum 18:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think all of those have been handled now. The359 23:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I think so too, so I'm going to list this article as a GA. Congratulations and well done. --Malleus Fatuarum 02:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good to hear, thank you much, your work is much appreciated. The359 02:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC)