Talk:2007 NLL season

Standings
For anyone who sees the standings, (as of January 22,) the National Lacrosse League website, (the source of these, obviously,) has the .600 winning percentage Rochester ahead of .667 winning percentage Chicago. I'm not sure why this is, (I guess they sort it by wins instead of winning %,) or whether it would be better to change it. Any opinions? Omega Graecisso 23:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say just display the standings as they are displayed on the NLL web site. That's the easiest. --MrBoo (talk, contribs) 01:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Re: Final Standings. The Wings finished in 6th according to the league rules, which I've confirmed with the league office.  Pointstreak has a sorting problem with tiebreakers.  It'll be sorted out soon, so I've corrected it here.  198.177.148.178 20:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The above post was me. Sorry, forgot to login. Mountainhawk 20:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was moved to 2007 NLL season. Aervanath (talk) 16:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

2007 National Lacrosse League season → 2007 NLL season &mdash; Relisting, as discussion is ongoing. Dekimasu よ! 09:34, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

For consistency among other seasons, as well as other professional sport leagues. --Mitico (talk) 19:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Preliminary discussion
(Note: This conversation is pieced together from the various talk pages)

Why did you rename the 2007 NLL season article? There are almost twenty other seasons that would need to be renamed for consistency with that change, and I don't see the point. More importantly, the NHL, NBA, and NFL season articles all follow the same naming pattern that the NLL ones use (eg. 2007–08 NHL season, 2007–08 NBA season, 2007 NFL season). Are you going to rename all of those too? --MrBoo (talk, contribs) 17:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I renamed it because that's the one I noticed. Since the main article is at National Lacrosse League, it made sense to use the same name for this article title.  Powers T 17:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, but given that this change is inconsistent with all the other NLL, MILL, NFL, NBA, and NHL season articles, would you like to change it back, or shall I? --MrBoo (talk, contribs) 18:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the longer names are better; why would I change it back? Powers T 18:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Um... because this change is inconsistent with all the other NLL, MILL, NFL, NBA, and NHL season articles? There are 21 MILL/NLL season pages, 90 NFL season pages, about 100 NHL and NHA season pages, 64 NBA season pages, and 14 MLS season pages, and those are just the ones I actively looked for. Every single one of them is named similarly ( "Season"). Do you really think it's a good idea to have one page out of all of those that's named differently? Unless you plan on changing all of those other ones as well, I will revert this change later today. --MrBoo (talk, contribs) 18:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry I didn't change them all immediately; I saw one and changed it to what I thought the title should be. I don't always have time to go through and change everything all at once.  Powers T 19:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)You seem to have missed my point entirely. Now that you've done all the MILL seasons, I can only assume you're going to do all the rest of the NLL seasons too, and then follow up by renaming all of the NHL, NBA, NFL, etc. seasons as well? You've turned one page rename into a project involving hundreds of pages. Don't you think you should have discussed this project with those of us who regularly update these pages before doing it? You may think it makes more sense to have it this way, but I don't. Seeing as the naming was consistent with other leagues and now isn't, this change doesn't makes sense to me. --MrBoo (talk, contribs) 01:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So now you're saying I shouldn't do all the other pages. You told me before I should, if I was going to do one.  What I've done so far is bring the MILL articles in line with the two Eagle Pro season articles.  I don't think I have to do all the other sports as well.  I'll get to the NLL articles in time.  There's no deadline.  Powers T 01:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, you're missing the point. The NLL season pages have existed for well over two years and were all consistent with the other sports. Is there a compelling reason that the NLL pages should be different from the other leagues? Why is it important that the NLL pages be renamed, but not, say, the NHL pages? Whatever reasoning made you decide to rename the NLL pages should logically apply to the NHL pages as well, but you're not willing to change those. Why not?
 * Note that the Eagle Pro pages didn't use a short form because to my knowledge, the Eagle Pro league was never referred to with an abbreviation (EPBLL or whatever).
 * I probably wasn't clear enough -- when I said "if you change one, you should change them all", what I meant and should have said was "if you change one, you should change them all, and changing them all is obviously an unnecessary waste of time, so just revert the one change you've made and we're done." Instead, you've gone ahead and made more changes. So now, either all of those changes need to be reverted, or the NLL / MILL pages will forever be inconsistent with the other sports, and for no good reason. --MrBoo (talk, contribs) 02:14, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see much reason why all the sports have to be consistent. Powers T 03:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * LTPowers, after reading Naming conventions you may have a point regarding these moves, specifically regarding the Prefer spelled-out phrases to abbreviations section. However, Mr.Boo makes a strong point about the actual practice (and consistency) on wikipedia of naming sport league seasons. Following the "BOLD, revert, discuss cycle ", I believe once he raised a concern about the first move of the 2007 NLL season you should have stopped moving the other seasons and allowed the conversation to progress.  I think the subsequent moves were a poor decision. What is your plan now?  I see that some pages are moved and others not.  I am considering opening an item at Requested moves (to move the 2007 season back) in order to get some attention to the matter. What do you think? -Mitico (talk) 15:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * MrBoo suggested that if I was going to move one season I should move them all. That's why I went ahead and started doing more.  When he suggested I not do that, I stopped.  I do not wish to revert them back, because I feel the longer name is more appropriate.  But I do not wish to do the tedious work of changing all the others, either, especially if someone else is just going to move them back.  So I'm letting it sit for now.  Powers T 15:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

This conversation also effects the other seasons, listed here: Category:National Lacrosse League seasons. -Mitico (talk) 19:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Survey

 * Oppose became it violates naming conventions, and is only meaningful to hockey enthusiasts. I agree that all NLL, MILL, NFL, NBA, and NHL season articles that violate naming conventions should be renamed to meaningful titles. --Bejnar (talk) 22:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. I opposed the original renaming, as seen by the conversation above. It was renamed on a whim, and due to a misunderstanding during the above quoted conversation, several more pages were renamed similarly. These pages are now inconsistent with ten other NLL season pages plus around three hundred other pages from other North American sports leagues. If someone wants to take on the project of mass-renaming all of them so that they all match the naming convention, feel free, but you should probably at least check with the maintainers of those other pages as well before you get edit wars all over the place. Personally, I think that 2007–08 NBA season is a much better name than "2007–08 National Basketball Association season" and certainly no less "meaningful". Until that project is undertaken, this page and the other MILL pages that were renamed should be renamed back to the way it was.
 * In addition, the naming conventions page says "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." It could easily be argued that far more people use the abbreviations for these sports leagues than the full names. --MrBoo (talk, contribs) 00:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If that line of reasoning is valid, then why do the main articles all avoid the abbreviations? Powers T 11:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If the article is about the WNBA, for example, the Women's National Basketball Association, the name is spelled out. If the article is about the 2009 season, the league can be abbreviated WNBA, as in 2009 WNBA season. The question is, is the article about the league, or about the season? 199.125.109.88 (talk) 14:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * MrBoo said "far more people use the abbreviations for these sports leagues than the full names." If the WNBA is usually called "WNBA", then why is the article at Women's National Basketball Association?  Powers T 15:41, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The league page itself uses the full name, the majority of supporting pages (which these are) use the abbreviation. --MrBoo (talk, contribs) 17:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In my mind the reason is that the article about the league should be spelled out what league you are talking about, while for all of the supporting pages, it is the type of page that is more important to spell out, the league can just be abbreviated in each. 199.125.109.88 (talk) 07:24, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. All of the other years are abbreviated, and there is no good reason for this one to be the odd one out. However, it does need to spell out the full name somewhere in the lead, which each does. The reason that this type of article breaks from the standard and uses an abbreviated title is because it is just too long if it is spelled out. 199.125.109.88 (talk) 13:08, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The reason "all of the other years are abbreviated" is because I was asked to stop changing them. And how long is "too long"?  Powers T 13:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It also goes by does the league itself use the abbreviation, which they do. There is no answer to how long is too long, but in general the preference is for shorter titles rather than longer ones. There are some long titles that can not be shortened without losing their meaning or correctness. 199.125.109.88 (talk) 14:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think I've ever seen a tendency to abbreviate, except perhaps among these season articles. Powers T 15:41, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * For the NBA, all of the pages on seasons, awards, drafts, and playoffs use "NBA" in the name. At least one list page uses the full name. Same for the NHL. Same for the NFL, though several list pages use the full name. (Note that we are talking about hundreds of pages for each league.) The NFL has the most inconsistency, but for all of these leagues, the season pages are completely consistent, using the abbreviation. --MrBoo (talk, contribs) 17:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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