Talk:2007 Tour de France

Stage 2
The suggestion that Stage 2 will have to be short - the stage is starting from nearby the French end of the channel tunnel, the stage before ends near the English end. It takes about 35 minutes to go from one end to the other by Eurostar, so this isn't a particularly long transit. Therefore I'm not convinced this speculation is founded. Average Earthman 13:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Replaced that with a statement of fact (it will follow their crossing of the channel) --Aioth 03:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Cyclists
There must be a date at which it is decided which teams can enter the Tour de France 2007, if it is not already decided. Unfortunately, I searched but I cannot find this date. Similarly, there must be a date at which the list of cyclists entering the Tour is made public. Again, I searched but I could not find the date. Both dates can be mentioned in the article, and would improve the content. Can somebody find these dates?

Secondly, although the list of competitors is yet to be determined, there are already some thoughts about who are important contestants. The 2006 Tour de France also had such a list. If there is some reliable source of information about who are suggested to win the 2007 Tour, it should be included in this article. Of course I can make my own list of favorite competitants, but because I'm not a sports authority, it is not Wikipedia-worthy. --Pie.er 17:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I suspect that this year, we will only be sure of the final entry list on July 6 (i.e. the Unibet situation). Similarly, Operacion Puerto could once again deprive the race of the best riders (or liberate the race of cheaters?) literally as they take to the starting ramp.... The list of riders is not final until the evening before when they sign in and have physical checks. Indeed, I think the Tour allows a rider to be replaced on the day (Matt White or someone a few years back injured himself warming up?). So, in essence, there isn't really a day, and the date lacks importance anyway. :S SeveroTC 17:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that Agritubel is in the race along with 19 ProTour teams (all but Unibet), but I don't know if there is still more teams in the race --BleuDXXIV 08:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not done yet: Tour de France: Barloworld in, Unibet out? SeveroTC 11:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * But it is now :), Tour de France wildcards awarded SeveroTC 17:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The teams (though not the riders) were announced on 30 May (see and the list is now incorporated in the article. Daemonic Kangaroo 17:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Pre-race favourites - original research
I tagged the Pre-race favourites section with an original research tag as, without citations, it is personal opinion. This needs to be cited from a reliable source, or we'll have to remove it. Regards, SeveroTC 20:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There are very few press releases yet about Tour favourites, but I tried to make it less personal by referring to bookmakers. If the bookmakers say Vinokourov has a return rate* of 1:2, this makes him a Tour favourite, doesn't it? If this enough to make it not original research? *: I'm sorry if this is the wrong term, but I'm not really into betting... --Pie.er 08:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't find anything against using betting odds so it seems like a good idea! I've removed the original research tag. SeveroTC 09:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Map
Could whoever made the map or whoever understands it please describe the difference between the red and green lines? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * It's quite simple. The red lines show the route taken by the cyclists when racing; the green lines show the overnight movements from the finish of one day's racing to the start of the next. Hope that's all clear. Daemonic Kangaroo 19:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Stage descriptions
It seems apallingly Anglocentric that the article has fairly detailed stage descriptions for the English stages, and none for the rest of the race. The same accusation could be made against the lead paragraph. It is called the Tour de France! Kevin McE 14:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Pre Race Favourites
Andy Schleck was tipped to be a major contender before the race started as he had a very good Giro, he was at 50-1 with most bookmakers but as he is not riding should he be included in the section under the table which includes Cunego and such? --GOD 09:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Stage Summaries
I've reinstated the links to 2007 Tour de France, Prologue to Stage 10 and 2007 Tour de France, Stage 11 to Stage 20 instead of having a copy both on this page and the linked. This worked well, but if there is a good reason to have all twenty summaries on the main page, I'd be happy to change. --Aioth 13:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Combativity
How to decide the combativity if more than one rider leading the race for most of the time? --Aleen f 1 15:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wiki editors are not deciding this (that would be POV and unverifiable): it is awarded by the race officials. ISTR there is a poll among the journalists, but I am not very confident on that. Kevin McE 23:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There is "most combative" rider of each stage and after the race overall "most combative" rider of the whole race. Has been like that since 2003. The most combative listed in the jersey progress is the one of the each stage, as he has race number on red background. --BleuDXXXIV 07:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Stage profiles
I've made the profiles of the 6 mountainstages (7, 8, 9, 14, 15 & 16). Here you can find them and see here for an example. Afhaalchinees 18:06, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice one! SeveroTC 18:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Danielson pre-race favorite
Apparently the fact that Danielson was a pre-race favorite according to the bookmakers should be referenced. I tried to do it, but I couldn't because the skybet page is not archived. I do have a clue for those who don't believe it: on 13:34, 14 June 2007 I updated this article and added the bookmakers odds for the first time, and there was Tom Danielson. (see here) At that time, skybet and sportingbet gave him the same chance of winning the Tour de France as they did with Rasmussen :) I know this is not convincing enough to put it in the article, but it might be of some value for personal interest. Personally I don't have any idea why Danielson should be considered a favorite for winning the Tour, but apparently the bookmakers did. If it is possible to find the original skybet page (or an alternative betting page), please cite it.--Pie.er 10:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It was me who removed the non-racers from the list of favourites on the morning of the grand départ, but thought it worth mentioning that they had been strongly considered (I apparently managed to miss out on Marchante, though why anyone would have bought him at 24/1 I'm not sure). I hope no offence was caused.  I would suggest that you put as a reference your original link to bookmakers, with the addition "accessed on 14 June" (or whatever the date was).  This is, in principle, verifiable, although only if somebody goes to the bookmaker in question and gets permission to access their web-site archive.  Of course this is difficult, but there again, references to published books, newspapers and radio/TV broadcasts are all over Wiki, and I can't access them quickly and easily whilst sitting at my computer either. Kevin McE 23:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I was the one who added the fact tag to Danielson. I'll admit that it was mostly out of surprise ("who the f is...?"), but I do feel that the odds for all the cyclists should be cited per WP:V and WP:CITE. I did find this Google cache for Danielson, but I can't read the figures, since I never bet. A  ecis Brievenbus 23:23, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

More on Vino
Should we mention the fact that the outcome of stage 13 is contested at the moment, pending the outcome of Vinokourov's B-sample? And does anyone know what will happen with Vino's victory in stage 15, if the B-sample of stage 13 comes back positive as well? Will he be disqualified retroactively, with the victory in stage 15 going to Kirchen? Or will the outcome of that stage depend solely on the outcome of Vino's doping test for that stage? Btw, I noticed that Vino's positive test hasn't been mentioned in 2007 Tour de France, Stage 11 to Stage 20 yet. A ecis Brievenbus 23:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC) PS. And could someone update 2007 Tour de France?
 * As I understand it, from my reading on the Landis issue last year, the TdF organisers defer the decision on annuling results to the UCI, who in turn defer to the national association of the rider in question. Hence it is in the hands of the US cycling federation as to how long Landis retains the title of 2006 Tour winner.  Assuming I have understood this correctly, it may take some time for any official change in the results to be promulgated, and an encyclopedia should not anticipate official decisions.  Maybe we can mark it with an asterisk to indicate that it is under review. Kevin McE 11:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Positions graph
I have tried to make a graph of the positions of the main contenders in the 2007 Tour de France. The result is shown in the right. I am currently not so happy about it, as it does not help much to make the progress clear. Any advice on what to do with this? I already know I should add explanations to the axes, label the stages better ('P' in stead of '0' for the Prologue), change the order such that the number one position is on top of the list. But I'm afraid that will not be enough. Am I on a dead end, or can this graph still be made clear?

What I think would be more illustrative (but would take me far too much time) is to make a graph with the time gap with the yellow jersey. If someone else wants to try that ;) --Pie.er 08:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd invert the Y-axis to place the leader (Yelow Jersey) at the top. Following on from the above comment, perhaps use the markers as the jersey indicator, and the lines as the rider.

Jersey indicator colours - yellow and green are obvious (but green won't be an issue, unless you follow everyone who had a jersey, which isn't a good idea). White (for Contador) should be within a border of some sort (or change the backing colour to gray?). Polka Dot (for Soler, who probably has earnt a place on the graph at some stage should be a red/white split marker. How do you put combativity in there? You don't, because it's not a jersey. You could use a star marker for it instead of the normal one, if that's at all possible, for that result.

As for time - you'd need a list of gaps after each stage. It'd be a lot better, but subject to finding that information. If you can invert the axis, all you need to do is put time from leader for each stage. Early on, that still won't be massive amounts (unless you keep Vino. And Rasmussen causes issues as well. I guess his line just disappears.)

I have made one withe Contador in orange, Evans in green, Leipheimer in Pink, and Sastre in Blue, Horizontal lines are one minute behind leader, vertical are each stage. http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e241/fresz/tourgraph.png?t=1185688857 69.178.52.88 06:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Withdrawals
what's the difference between DNS and DSQ?
 * Did Not Start and Disqualified. --Mais oui! 13:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * DNS=Did Not Start, DSQ=Disqualified. And on that point, Vinokourov definitely has been DSQ'd. He was expelled from the tour as his team was "invited" to withdraw en masse. Nosleep1234 13:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source on that? I do not think that the tour could have disqualified him before the B sample result, and the only press release I have seen from the organisers says that they have "obtained the withdrawal of the Astana team."  Kevin McE 13:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm looking for one. They said it on the TV broadcast, but I'm trying to find an article. Nosleep1234 13:26, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess it depends on how technical you want to be

When Tour de France officials were informed of Alexandre Vinokourov's positive test control for a homologous blood transfusion resulting from a post-stage 13 blood check, they responded by asking the rider and his team Astana to leave the world's biggest bike race. Cyclingnews' Gregor Brown was in Pau to capture the responses from Tour director Christian Prudhomme and ASO President Patrice Clerc.



If you read that as Vinokourov and Astana could have started today if they so chose, then I guess he wasn't disqualified. Nosleep1234 13:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it shows that Vinokourov was no more disqualified than the rest of his team was, although he was the cause of their "retirement". Whether they would have been disqualified had they refused to withdraw is conjecture.  Kevin McE 14:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's clear they withdrew anticipating a positive B-test. IMHO it is not right to say "Team withdrew from race after his positive A-test for blood doping." as a reason for Vinokorov, this may be the right reason for the rest of the team, but not for him. For him it should be "withdrawing anticipating disqualification after a positive test" or something. Greswik 16:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be speculative. Neither you nor I know what Vinokourov was anticipating (though we might both be able to guess!) Kevin McE 16:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Speculation? Never heard of the Duck test? Come on. At some point, things get obvious. I say we are there in this case. Greswik 17:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If this were a journalistic endeavour, you might have a case, but it is an encyclopedia, and we can only state that which is verifiable and beyond doubt. It cannot proved to be a duck, no matter how much like quacking that sound is to you or me.  Kevin McE 23:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, he doesn't sound anything like a duck. Cyclists have beaten drug charges before (Petacci sp? as a recent example). However, if you treat Vino this way, surely the Cofidis rider deserves the same treatment - withdrawal due to positive A-sample test for [was it synthetic testosterone or 'excessive testosterone levels'], and team to follow that. The irony of Cofidis protesting Vino's actions doesn't escape me either... or at least, the guy who already had a positive test in the bank when he did it. 121.208.196.161 00:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The difference is Moreni confessed and did not ask for his B sample to be tested. He's not fighting. Nosleep1234 09:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Doping scandal
I created an article that refers exclusively to the doping issues of present Tour edition, due to the great magnitude they have reached. If anyone is interested on the subject you should check it out and provide information in order to complete it: it's really worth. (Doping at the 2007 Tour De France). Thanks to Hansm77 for the idea.

Mannschaftskapitän 21:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Stage 16-17: Rasmussen or Contador?
Since Michael Rasmussen was removed from the tour today, the question now arises as to who should be considered the GC leader between stages 16 and 17. While I understand the opinion of many people that it should still say Rasmussen as GC leader because he was awarded the yellow jersey at the end of the stage, I believe that the events after the race negate that fact and Contador should be listed as the GC leader for the period between stages 16 and 17. It makes the most sense since Contador will start stage 17 in the yellow jersey IMHO. Also, Versus has posted Contador as the GC leader on their site in the headline "Alberto Contador Discovery Channel Team holds Yellow Jersey." What do you all think? --Barinade2151 02:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * IMO, it depends on whether the ASO has a rule on officially withdrawing other than by simply not starting the next stage. If Contador will indeed start the stage in yellow, I would infer that they do have such a rule, but I don't know for sure. Anyone?Jbening 03:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A quick look at [www.letour.fr] shows that they still list Rasmussen as holding the yellow jersey. Comparing the Vino case: he was listed until the results of the next stage showed up. In both cases the involved cyclists were officially taken out of the tour by their teams, so I guess the same procedure applies, and there will be no yellow jersey today, as it 'officially' is still Rasmussen's. So don't change the list.--Pie.er 06:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You are correct, in my opinion, Pie.er; Contador will not start in the yellow jersey today; therefore, I think all the changes made by an anonymous user have to be reverted. Tubantia 07:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I just heard in Dutch television that the remaining Rabobank riders will probably be starting in the 17th stage, by the way. Mechanicians are preparing their bikes, anyhow. Tubantia 07:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's now official: all remaining Rabobank riders will start, and there will be no yellow jersey in course today. --Pie.er 08:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

From what I understand, Contador would only have gotten the lead in the GC and the yellow jersey prior to stage 17 if Rasmussen had been disqualified by the organisation. He has been pulled out by his own team, so counts as a DNS. This means that his lead in the Tour ended the moment Bennati passed the finish line. A ecis Brievenbus 21:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Technically I think his lead ended at the moment the time limit for cyclists to finish in time ended, because that's when the new classification can be made;) But I don't know the detailed Tour rules. --Pie.er 06:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I suspect we are discussing the arrangement of deckchairs on the Titanic here, but Rasmussen would, as I understand it, have become a DNS when he missed the signing-in deadline for the start of stage 17. The text commentary on the Tour's official site refrred to Conador as the virtual leader during yesterday's stage, so they were not waiting for any time limit after Bennati finished.  I believe that it is because of the late stage at which he officially became a non-starter, and the short time that would have left Contador (and presumably Txurruka) to get changed, that the convention of having a day sans maillot jaune emerged.  Kevin McE 09:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Is this the first time in history that a cyclist in the yellow jersey 'withdrew'? I know that it has happened at least once that the cyclist in the yellow jersey did not finish the stage, but has it ever happened before that a cyclist in the yellow jersey 'withdrew' between stages? If so, follow the same procedure. BTW: isn't the fact that the Tour's official site used the words 'virtual leader' instead of 'leader' a clue that they didn't see Contador as official leader yet? --Pie.er 10:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 1991: Sorensen finished a stage in yellow, but had broken a collarbone in a crash in the final km and did not start the next day: no-one wore yellow that day. There was, of course, no wiki-precedent set in 1991. Kevin McE 10:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Check out these sites:
 * All these sites show jersey progression charts with Rasmussen as leader after stage 16. In addition, every site I found (including the official site said that the leader after stage 16 was Rasmussen, (even though he was taken out of the race later). Because WP:NOR, Wikipedia should not be the only site interpreting things in a different way. Nobody was wearing the yellow jersey in the 17th stage, but that's not what the timetable shows. The timetable does not show who's wearing the jersey, but who's leading the classification. And Rasmussen was leading the classification after the 16th stage. If you can find 1 other source that shows a jersey progression chart with no leader after stage 16, we might have something to debate about, but until that moment, wikipedia should follow other sources and show Rasmussen as leader after stage 16.--Pie.er 06:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The title of the section totally vindicates the assumption that it is about who is wearing the jersey. The crux of the matter is whether we wish to show the situation at the end of stage 16, or as stage 17 started: normally there would not be a difference, but this was not a "normal" circumstance..  However, I note that the jerseys have been allocated on this chart (although they were clearly not worn) for the prologue: on the basis of that precedent, I concede that the table's title should not be interpreted literally, and so you have won me over.  Kevin McE 19:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm.. The jerseys are not allocated for the prologue, they were allocated only for after the prologue. (The period in the chart between 0 and 1 indicates the period between the end of the prologue and the end of stage 1.) But anyway, the chart shows Cancellara after the prologue in the yellow and the green sections. Clearly he did not wear both jerseys at the same time, as is indicated in the notes, but it means he was leading both classifications after the prologue. The name "Jersey progress" is misleading, I totally agree. Unfortunately, this seams to be the general name for a "classification leader progress" chart.
 * In the letour.fr history archive, a table named "THE JERSEYS STAGE BY STAGE" is shown. Here, the person physically wearing the jersey is indicated: for stage 1, David Zabriskie is shown wearing the yellow jersey, and Lance Armstrong wearing the green jersey, while Zabriskie was leading both of them. It would be interesting to see how the site will handle the 2007 case. Unfortunately, the 2005 is the latest in the archive. The strange thing is that letour.fr is the only site I've seen that shows the physical jersey wearer (indicating Armstrong in green), while all the other sites show the classification leader (indicating Zabriskie in green). Letour.fr is the official site, so you would have a good argument to change the "classification leader progress" chart to a real jersey progression chart. But then all the other years (there are progression charts from 1995 on) have to be changed as well. --Pie.er 06:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the thing is that the jersey "rightfully" belongs to the person in the lead. Just because Cancellara didn't wear the green jersey in stage one or Rasmussen the polka-dot jersey in 9-16 doesn't mean they didn't belong to those riders. If we're going to change these tables in any wide-scale way, I would greatly favor keeping the classification leaders in rather than the physical wearers. Either way, you'd need a footnote - would it be right to show Soler as holding the polka-dot jersey from 10 on when he didn't hold it outright until 17? Nosleep1234 09:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that I'd rather see a table with classification leaders (or equivalently cyclists awarded a jersey at the end of the (previous) stage) with footnotes indicating the physical wearer, than a table with physical wearers and a footnote indicating the classification leaders. I don't understand why letour.fr chooses to do it differently: seeing this chart, I could easily be confused in believing Peter Luttenberger won that year's youth classification in stead of Jan Ullrich. The silly thing is that Luttenberger was not even physically wearing the white jersey because the white jersey was not given in that year... Strange way of presenting statistics, let's not do that at wikipedia. --Pie.er 10:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The GREATEST SCANDAL of Tour de Farce 2007 was the exclusion of Michael Rasmussen from the race. He was not supposed to win and therefore was not allowed.

The greatest mistake Michael Rasmussen made in the Tour was not to announce his intension of winning the Tour; neither to his team nor to the Tour Management. Obviously the teams have to pay a fee for participation and probably also a “Winners Fee” if they intend to win the Tour. As Michael had not told his team of his plans they had not paid the “Winners Fee” and therefore were not supposed to win. The other big teams having paid the “Winners Fee” obviously protested against such an “upstart guys” attack on their “right” to win the race; and obviously the Tour Management can’t have a winner not supposed to win making such an assassination on their own plans and “rules”.

So, at the time Michael showed he was the greatest rider of the Tour and won the 16th stage and was going to win the race, the Tour Management had no other choice than to order Rabobank to fire Michael. How could they order Rabobank to fire him? Obviously they could make the life of Rabobank in coming Tours very difficult. Especially now, when they have plans of changing the Tour so that only their own candidates have the chance of winning.

In the Tour the code of “let the best man win” has been changed to “let the best paying man win”. So, the next team that hire Michael, please pay the “Winners Fee” to let the best man win.

The GREATEST RIDER and REAL WINNER of Tour De France 2007: MICHAEL RASMUSSEN, Denmark.

You can probably see the degree of truth in the above statements by the speed of which they are removed from this site. 80.63.113.18 20:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As much as i respect your contribution, Wikipedia is not a place for personal opinions. Wikipedia remains an encyclopedic effort and has no place for diatribes for and against subject topics. Thanks for your contribution and hope you will remember this while contributing to wikipedia. --Kalyan 09:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Txurruka
I don't believe his name should be highlighted as wearing the white jersey, even though he of course is. When Gerdemann wore the yellow jersey, Soler was not indicated this way, nor was he when Rasmussen wore the yellow (instead of the polka-dot). While I realize those situations don't as such matter anymore (they only exist as ancient revisions of this article), I find I agree with the logic. If everyone feels differently, then fine, but rather than edit war (it'd be a candidate for WP:LAME, I'm sure), I thought I'd bring it up here. Nosleep1234 09:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

On the section 'Doping Scandals'
Don't you think that the section 'Doping Scandals' should be moved further in to the article Body? I mean, I know that it is a matter of first importance but I think that it is not located in the right place. It would be better if moved before or after the 'Withdrawals' section. Opinions? Mannschaftskapitän 21:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Time Bonuses
According to my calculations, if there weren't any time bonuses the results would be:

1st Contador

2nd Evans +0:03

3rd Leipheimer +0:05

Just thought it was interesting. 69.178.52.88 04:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Might be right. However, Leipheimer got 10-second penalty due to push from his car on stage 8 I think. Probably you didn't count that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BleuDXXXIV (talk • contribs) 11:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Green jersey points
From the letour.fr site: the final points classification, bottom of the table.

How can these cyclists have negative points? --Pie.er 08:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You can have points or time taken off you for various misconducts. Things like drafting behind a car or holding on too long when grabbing a bidon usually result in time penalties, point penalties are usually for infringements in sprints and the like. There should be a page telling you each day when a rider was deducted points or time, but I'm not sure. SeveroTC 11:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If somebody finds such a page, put it in the Maillot vert (or Points classification?) article. It's not that important for the race, but to be complete. --Pie.er 18:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Found a source from a third party explaining very simple about punishments for infringements (http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?id=features/FAQ). I'll see if I can weave it into the Maillot vert page. Regards, SeveroTC 16:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Intro
I've expanded the intro to try to roughly fit the way entries for previous years look. Please take a look and revise as necessary. I'm going to remove the intro template as well. Cogswobble talk 16:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

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