Talk:2007 Zimbabwean alleged coup attempt

Dead link
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://allafrica.com/stories/200706141067.html
 * In Elson Moyo on 2011-03-18 04:04:56, 403 Forbidden
 * In 2007 Zimbabwean coup d'état attempt on 2011-05-26 03:10:02, 403 Forbidden
 * In 2007 Zimbabwean coup d'état attempt on 2011-05-27 15:26:15, 403 Forbidden
 * In 2007 Zimbabwean coup d'état attempt on 2011-06-15 20:15:58, 403 Forbidden

--JeffGBot (talk) 20:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 2
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://allafrica.com/stories/200706150552.html
 * In 2007 Zimbabwean coup d'état attempt on 2011-05-26 03:10:10, 403 Forbidden
 * In 2007 Zimbabwean coup d'état attempt on 2011-05-27 15:26:37, 403 Forbidden
 * In 2007 Zimbabwean coup d'état attempt on 2011-06-15 20:16:32, 403 Forbidden

--JeffGBot (talk) 20:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 3
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://allafrica.com/stories/200706160052.html
 * In 2007 Zimbabwean coup d'état attempt on 2011-05-26 03:10:13, 403 Forbidden
 * In 2007 Zimbabwean coup d'état attempt on 2011-05-27 15:26:32, 403 Forbidden
 * In 2007 Zimbabwean coup d'état attempt on 2011-06-15 20:16:46, 403 Forbidden

--JeffGBot (talk) 20:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

How to insert 'alleged' into article name?
The lead correctly calls it an alleged coup d'etat attempt - the lack of treason trials, the fact that senior alleged plotters remained in the army, and much else, strongly suggest there was no planned coup. But the article name implies there was a planned coup (and indeed more, since an attempt normally implies that the plan was partly carried out). So I think the word "alleged" should be added to the article name, but I don't know how to go about this, either technically or procedurally. Can anybody help? Tlhslobus (talk) 06:31, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * This seems reasonable, I moved the page. You can rename ("move") a page by clicking on the move tab at the top of the screen (alongside "edit", "view history", etc.) Nicolas Perrault (talk) 08:11, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Nicolas.Tlhslobus (talk) 17:41, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * My pleasure. Nicolas Perrault (talk) 08:08, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Who got arrested and charged?
Our lead says all the alleged leaders were arrested and charged with treason, backed by 3 citations. But one of these links is dead and the other two require payment to access and check. Clearly Matapo was arrested and later charged with treason (but never tried for it). But I see no clear evidence (apart from those inaccessable citations) that the other 3 were even arrested, let alone charged with treason, and their bio articles don't seem to say this clearly either (as distinct from saying various inconsistent things like that they came under suspicion, or were "supposedly arrested" with no mention of charges, etc, or were arrested but with no explanation as to how they nevertheless stayed in the army, etc). For 10 years this article was seemingly basically a fairy tale, and I am concerned that these claims may be remnants of that apparent fairy tale, but I'm not quite sure how to check and if necessary fix this. Can anybody else help or offer useful suggestions, please? Tlhslobus (talk) 13:59, 17 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The only free and accessible article that I've found so far is the ocnus.net one from our bio articles of Rugeje and Moyo (here), a reprint of a story from Zimbabwe journalist Moses Moyo (presumably no relation of Air Vice Marshal Moyo) writing for The First Post, which says Rugeje, Ncube and Moyo are under house arrest but says nothing of treason charges (possibly because it's earlier than the unfree 'Officers charged with treason' article). It's unclear how reliable it is, as much of its language suggests it's reporting facts, but it admits details are sketchy, that the defense minister refuses to discuss military matters with journalists, and that the government is desperate to keep news of the coup from reaching the public. It also claims that in 1999 the editor of The Standard and one of its writers were arrested and tortured after revealing details of a 1998 alleged coup attempt - that might make journalists and editors scared of reporting anything except what the govenment wanted reported (and may well be a way of telling readers to take the article with a pinch of salt). This may or may not be why our bio of Rugeje uses it (along with 2 other now dead links) but still says 'supposedly arrested'.Tlhslobus (talk) 14:50, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

What needs to stay in the lead

 * 1) I have now twice had to revert edits (one of them anonymous, the other by LoneWolf1992) taking important info out of the lead and transferring it to dubiously titled paragraphs ('Events' and 'About').
 * 1b) If somebody wants to discuss changes to the lead please do so in this section.


 * 2) The removed bits were as follows:
 * According to the government, the soldiers planned on forcibly removing President Robert Mugabe from office and asking Rural Housing Minister Emmerson Mnangagwa to form a government with the heads of the armed forces. The government first heard of the plot when a former army officer who opposed the coup contacted the police in Paris, France, giving them a map and a list of those involved. Mnangagwa and State Security Minister Didymus Mutasa both said they did not know about the plot, Mnangagwa calling it "stupid."[1][4]


 * Some analysts have speculated that rival successors to Mugabe, such as former Zimbabwe African National Liberation Army leader Solomon Mujuru, were possibly trying to discredit Mnangagwa.[1]


 * No treason trial ever took place, for lack of evidence, but seven men (including Matapo, but not Ncube, Rugeje or Moyo), who were allegedly only trying to form a new political party, were held in prison for seven years (and allegedly severely tortured beforehand) before being released in 2014, and subsequently founding their new party.[5]


 * Other senior reportedly arrested officers remained in the army.[6][7][8][9]


 * 3) Of these it seems to me that the following bits almost certainly need to stay in the lead:
 * According to the government, the soldiers planned on forcibly removing President Robert Mugabe from office and asking Rural Housing Minister Emmerson Mnangagwa to form a government with the heads of the armed forces.


 * No treason trial ever took place, for lack of evidence, but seven men (including Matapo, but not Ncube, Rugeje or Moyo), who were allegedly only trying to form a new political party, were held in prison for seven years (and allegedly severely tortured beforehand) before being released in 2014, and subsequently founding their new party.[5]


 * Other senior reportedly arrested officers remained in the army.[6][7][8][9]


 * 4) This sentence may well also belong in the lead:
 * Some analysts have speculated that rival successors to Mugabe, such as former Zimbabwe African National Liberation Army leader Solomon Mujuru, were possibly trying to discredit Mnangagwa.[1]


 * 5) The last two sentences in item 3 (above) are already also expanded in the body of the article (section Charges and aftermath) and do not need to be duplicated again in the body.


 * 6) The sentence in 4 may be copied (if also needed in the lead) or transferred (if not) to some other suitable section of the body (perhaps called Initial Events, or perhaps just our existing May arrests section).
 * 6b) That section should probably also include a copy of the lead's opening paragraph (not shown here, and to be expanded later, and/or perhaps then shortened in the lead, especially given my expressed concerns about its reliability in the previous section of this Talk page)
 * 6c) That section should probably also include the sentences that I have not mentioned as needed in the lead.
 * 6d) We probably also want to add something both in the lead and the Charges and Aftermath section about Mnangagwa also staying in office (though we may or may not want to wait a few days to see if we can also add that he eventually succeeded Mugabe in 2017 - RTE is saying here that he'll be sworn in on Friday).


 * 7) I may or may not eventually do the above myself, but I'd currently prefer to wait a while for possible feedback from other editors (and/or to see if some other editor(s) decide to make these or very similar changes themselves) before thinking seriously about doing so myself.


 * 8) Tlhslobus (talk) 10:06, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Having received no feedback, and with Mnangagwa now sworn in, I think I shall now try to implement most or all of the above.Tlhslobus (talk) 13:58, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

That's now largely done, along with fixing some of the verifiability issues mentioned in the previous section. There's seemingly more tidying up to be done in the detailed sections, and more checking of wording against accessible sources may also be needed, but it probably won't be done by me today.Tlhslobus (talk) 15:47, 24 November 2017 (UTC)