Talk:2008 Brazilian Grand Prix/Archive 1

Importance
I've made the page mid importance (see here), to conform with the Belgian one. Apterygial (talk) 10:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Permutations & Combinations
Is it just me or does anybody else feel that the pre-race section is purely OR, has no long term value, and is leading to addition of more and more speculations? LeaveSleaves talk 13:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's pretty pointless. It'll obviously be deleted after the race anyway. Basically all we need to say is "Hamilton leads the championship by 7 points and there is a maximum of ten points on offer in Brazil." We probably don't need the tables. Apterygial (talk) 23:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've deleted the tables. However, I feel the writing will be very relevant to the topic at hand after the race itself. See 1997 European Grand Prix for an example of what I mean. --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 14:38, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * My objection was towards pure OR in writing and creating such tables. Same is the case 1995 European GP. There is no sourcing present there either. Plus discussing permutations doesn't serve any purpose, especially once the race is over. LeaveSleaves talk 14:59, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps as a section on it's own, I agree. However, if one wishes to take the article further then you can't discuss in the "Pre-race" section without mentioning the championship battle between Hamilton and Massa which in turn means you can't help but mention the title as it stands prior to the race itself, if you follow. Especially when you consider that the article on the final Grand Prix of the season, a championship decider, it is my opinion that the reader will almost certainly wish to know about the situation before the race itself. :-) Also, I'm not exactly sure why you think it's original research when the various scenarios for tomorrows race have been published frequently, but if you so wish - I'll fetch you a reference for it, even though I disagree about the fact that it actually needs one. ;-) --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 19:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess you are right. And perhaps noting that somebody would come with this point, I didn't delete pre-race right away. I still think it should be referenced though. LeaveSleaves talk 19:39, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I would agree with LeaveSleaves about the referencing. You may not feel they are necessary, Phill, but its not a big deal to just reference them there. At this stage the article is really underdeveloped, and it will probably take off after the race. Reviewers seem to see Pre-race or Background as being important, for example here. And of course, being the final race of the season, its important here as it ever is. Apterygial (talk) 04:23, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh I think it is a worthy section, because obviously the teams play the percentages on how many points they need and adjust their strategy accordingly.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to choose Australia's next top model! ) 01:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * LeaveSleaves' banner was valid. The fact remains that even if there is a lot of information out there about it, it is our responsibility to cite it. Reinstating relevant banner. Apterygial (talk) 01:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not OR - that stuff is everywhere. Needs a cite though. Bretonbanquet (talk) 02:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's sourced alright: TheChrisD Rants • Edits 11:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Notes and unverified claims
Like all recent GPs this page clearly needs a bit of work. Personally I wouldn't worry too much about the crappy grammer in the Notes section as it will be deleted within days anyway. Once the Belgian GP page goes through I will divert my attention to this page, as this should be high importance for the F1 project (I will change that) and we should try to get it to FA. We'll come up with references when we get to it, but for now we'll keep LeaveSleaves' banner. Apterygial (talk) 01:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for focusing on this page. It is not only important, but could be a potential target of vandalism for the near future, so requires monitoring. 88.105.79.170 (talk) 07:10, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The note "The first time since 1998 that the title winner wasn't the same as the previous year" would imply that the title has gone to the same driver every year up until this year. As far as my memory goes, this is not the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.120.200.129 (talk) 16:39, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Where did Hamilton overtake Glock?
In the current version of the article, it states "In the last corner, Hamilton overtook Glock", as has been widely reported. Searching through various reports of the race, I have read conflicting reports that it was the last corner, the second last corner, and even three corners from the end. Please can someone make sure that this statement is indeed encyclopaedic fact and not widespread exaggeration? Coyets (talk) 08:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * From what I recall from seeing on TV, Glock was overtaken by Vettel and Hamilton between turns 13 and 14. However I found news sites very varying positions as to where exactly this pass occurred. One thing we can do is wait for couple of days till Formula1.com uploads videos for Sunday's race. They would surely incorporate this event in their clips. LeaveSleaves talk 10:52, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Basically it was the last corner, but if you count the small kinks on the uphill run into the S/F straight, the overtaking took place in T12 out of 15.212.149.175.71 (talk) 13:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not an expert in Formula One, but should the article contain the information that it was either the last corner or not depending on how one looks at it? Coyets (talk) 16:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be a strange thing to put in an article. We'll wait until we get footage, but I think 212.149.175.71 is right, there is no strict definition. We'll probably end up writing 'last corner'. Apterygial (talk) 00:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Vettel and Hamilton overtook Glock after the last corner. – Howard  the   Duck  12:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Both Wikipedia and Formula1.com show the Interlagos circuit as having 15 turns, the 15th turn being the one where the racing line runs across the pitlane entrance. This image shows the location of the overtake. However information from a reliable source trumps fact on Wikipedia, and as this image isn't such a source, we'd need something else to back it up. AlexJ (talk) 18:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've shortcutted this problem in the article by simply referring to the pass as being in "the final corners". Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 09:42, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

23 years and 301 days
Is here reported that Hamilton winning the world title at 23 years and 301 days, so i going to correct it. It is mention 300 days in article. --Aleen f 1 08:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Aleenf1, I reverted your edit. The cited reference in the article gives 300 days and I would favour the UK Times newspaper over Sporting Life any day. Furthermore, a simple calculation will show that the date of the race (2 November 2008) is 300 days after Lewis' birthday this year (7 January). This is so even accounting for the difference in time zones. Secret Squïrrel , approx 11:25, 3 November 2008 (Earth Standard Time)


 * Are you mean, UK time is take in count? I calculate, it is 301 days Brazil time. --Aleen f 1 10:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Lewis Hamilton would have his birthday on UK time, not Brazilian. That's what should count. Apterygial (talk) 11:22, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * UK and Sao Paulo have 3 hr time difference and there is no change in his age at any place, at least in reference with the race time. LeaveSleaves talk 11:29, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Previous winners/years
In my opinion, the lead should only be about this year's race. The information about previous winners and championship-deciders should be moved to the background section.-- Diniz  (talk)  11:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have rewrote the lead (I hadn't even touched it yet) to remove superfluous information such as that. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 11:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul and PR
In the last few days I have massively overhauled the article, retaining (I think) one previous sentence. I will soon list it for a peer review, with a view to moving on towards GA and FA. If you have any problems with the article as it currently stands, now is the time to rectify those problems. Any major additions to the article must be correctly sourced and referenced, and should ideally be discussed on this page first. Feel free to correct any typos, spelling or grammatical mistakes, and above all do not add a 'notes' section. Cheers, Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 12:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * How bad it would be to add entire final standings in the article? I know this comes under season article, but since this was the final race I thought that might be a good addition. And also, you can modify the article during PR, that's what the whole point behind PR is. LeaveSleaves talk 12:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm not sure why I wrote those comments above. I feel complete standings on the article page would just clog it up too much, the page probably has too many tables as it is without expanding four-fold two that we already have. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 00:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Coulthard's accident
I guess the description was written based on Coulthard's statements. But it seems rather improper to put that Nakajima ran into Coulthard. Coulthard, who was spinning due to a nudge by Rosberg, hit Nakajima; albeit accidentally. A Williams official say so to. LeaveSleaves talk 13:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Another source. LeaveSleaves talk 14:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point, I changed it to "The Red Bull car then collided with Rosberg's Williams team-mate Kazuki Nakajima. This damaged the suspension and forced Coulthard to retire in his final race." and cited the autosport source. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 00:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Some points
There is mention in case of Glock and Vettel that at their certain pit stops they were fueled to the end of the race. Retrospectively, this feels correct. But when reading the race report it seems rather odd, as to how do we know they were fueled to the end. A reference here would be excellent. I feel that removing those statements won't cause any harm either. And, I feel there needs to be some mention of Glock in the post-race section. LeaveSleaves talk 14:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I referenced both. I want to keep it in, as to the F1 inclined reader it represents other things such as weight, whether they need to pit again, things like that. I'll add a bit about Glock into post-race. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 00:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 00:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, we know that they were fueled to the end because they didn't stop again. That's not OR (at least it shouldn't be) that's logic. ;) Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 03:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what I meant when I said 'retrospectively'. Couple of other things. In the earlier discussion, I think it was established that Glock was passed before the last corner. Now I know the actual pass is still unclear (at least in terms of references), but have you found any articles that particularly deal with this issue? Second, have you considered adding this bit to post race? LeaveSleaves talk 05:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion failed to reach consensus. I haven't found any other sources, but it doesn't strike me as being hugely important. Do you think I should change it to "in the last corners"? As for Di Montezemolo, while it is a great story I can't see it adding much to the article, so no I don't think it should go in there ("Ron Dennis was so happy he bought a new TV" wouldn't make it in there, even if it was true). Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 05:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think a lot of people would concentrate on the final passage since that was a crucial turning point in the race (no pun intended). I found Di Montezemolo's reaction quite significant and notable. Plus, now that you mention it, I think a reaction from Dennis is also warranted; particularly after last year's fiasco and the fact that McLaren won championship after many years. If we are mentioning Briatore's statement, I think it is valid to enter reactions from these two who are more directly involved with the result. LeaveSleaves talk 05:31, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Humble pie. I added it (before your reply, sorry). Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 05:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And now Ron Dennis. Thanks for these points, BTW. Apterygial talkstalkinsane idea 06:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Santander Sponsorship?
I don't think Santander was the title sponsor of this event. The podium did not have Santander branding, neither did the name of the race at the podium and press conference. 15:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.84.47 (talk)