Talk:2008 Copa Libertadores

TOP SCORER
group stage and knockout stage only?

Where does it say that preliminary round goals don't count?

I looked it up at Conmebol's rules and couldn't find anything to support that.

Last edition's top scorer Cabanas-Club America scored three of his ten goals at preliminary rounds.

2006 top scorers Washington and Marcinho each scored two of their five goals at preliminary stage playing for Palmeiras. Montenegro and Farias of River Plate scored one goal each at preliminary stage and also finish the competition with five.

Who are you to impose group stage and knockout stage only as a new rule for top scorer?

--Rednblac (talk) 16:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

group stage and knockout stage only.

--leeeeoo (talk) 14:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Qualification goals should not be counted for several reasons.
 * 1) For consistency with all previous Copa Libertadores tournaments where they have not been counted.
 * 2) For consistency with standard practices for UEFA Champions League and other continental titles.
 * 3) Because it would give an unfair advantage to players in weaker teams (ones that had to qualify due to their weaker league positions) by giving them two extra games in which to accumulate goals.

- English  peasant  19:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

According to Conmebol(2007,) and ALL international media(2008, that I was able to find) goals scored on preliminary rounds do count. So:


 * 1)For consistency, 2007 top scorer Cabanas scored three of his ten goals on preliminary rounds. . He scored six on group stage, one on round of 16, no goals on quaterfinal. This is the primary reason why I questioned the 'group and knockout only' rule on this page. If Conmebol changed its rules for this year I could not find it on paper.


 * 2)Among many huge differences, UEFA Champions League this year had three preliminary rounds. And it is gonna change. So much for consistency. They aren't even apples and oranges, they are more like grapes and watermelons... I won't even bother comparing it to other continental titles... Furthermore, Conmebol is the governing body of Copa Libertadores. For all I know, UEFA doesn't ask Conmebol how to choose their top scorer, neither has it been the other way around.


 * 3)Weaker? Last year, Cabanas' weak America played less games than Boca, Gremio, and also weak Santos. Again, Cabanas scored ten goals, three of those at preliminary rounds against 1997 runner-ups Sporting Cristal, and is, so far, the official top scorer of that edition.

In 2006 Washington's weak Palmeiras got out at round of 16 and Farias' weak River Plate at the quarter finals. Neither Sao Paulo's nor Internacional's strikers were able to score more than 5 goals, dispite playing more games than anyone else.

This year, one of the weak teams is Moreno's and Ramires' Cruzeiro, who beat also weak Cerro Porteno at the preliminary round. The same Cerro Porteno Salcedo played for when he was the top scorer in 2005, even though his team got out at round of 16.

In my opinion 'should not count' is something that has to be disclosed when editing the page, and/or taken to Conmebol. What does and does not count is up to the competition's governing body to determine. In this case, the title of Copa Libertadores' top scorer goes according to Conmebol's rules, not mine or yours. If the 'Top scorer' paragraph here is in reference to how someonelse think it should be, than that should be made clear. Seems to me.

PS. All previous editions did not have a preliminary round. 2005 was the first. And I don't know where it says that preliminary stage goals don't count.

--Rednblac (talk) 22:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

So it's settled, then? We'll include qualification goals as well.

-Montero (talk) 22:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we shouldn't use any own criteria on items like this when the problem is settled by the respective authorities on such problems. In this case, the CSF counts the goals in the preliminary rounds (as seen in the goalscorers list given by the webapge), so we don't need to reach an own criteria here. I think we can like it or not, but we're not the ones to decide it. Otherwise, we wouldn't give verified info, but all the contrary: wrong info on purpose. Ipsumesse (talk) 06:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

TOP GOAL SCORER
We are following the model used in the page of ucl.

--leeeeoo (talk) 22:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Absolutedly not! The Copa Libertadores is NOT the UEFA Champions League, it's NOT overseen by the Union of European Football Asociations, and doesNOT employ the same methods as other continental competitions, past years have included qualification goals, as has already been exposed in earlier responses in this discussion, so this year will follow the same example unless someone can come up with a CONMEBOL document claiming some other system of goalscorer criteria.

-Montero (talk) 17:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

ok...

--leeeeoo (talk) 18:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Qualified Teams
Update only at the end of the group stage.

--leeeeoo (talk) 01:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Bracket
Update 'bracket' only after the games.

--leeeeoo (talk) 02:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Updated bracket: semi-final match-ups depend on quarterfinal results

--Rodri316 (talk) 23:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

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Home and away
Hi, I've noticed the way the knock-out matches appear in the footballbox is quite misleading about home and away matches. The team seeded first is not always the one who played at home first. I think it should be fixed up, but I don't know extacly how. Problem is we can arrange Round of 16, but the team seeded home in first match from quarter-finals on is determined not by the previous round order, but the general positions in first round. Anyway, I posted this question in Copa Libertadores main page algo, because it's a problem in many previous editions also. Any ideas on this issue? Ipsumesse (talk) 06:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)