Talk:2008 Spanish Grand Prix/Article 1

POV Tag
I'm doing POV tag cleanup. Whenever an POV tag is placed, it is necessary to also post a message in the discussion section stating clearly why it is thought the article does not comply with POV guidelines, and suggestions for how to improve it. This permits discussion and consensus among editors. This is a drive-by tag, which is discouraged in WP, and it shall be removed. Future tags should have discussion posted as to why the tag was placed, and how the topic might be improved. Better yet, edit the topic yourself with the improvements. This statement is not a judgement of content, it is only a cleanup of frivolously and/or arbitrarily placed tags. No discussion, no tag.Jjdon (talk) 21:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Kovalainen / Bourdais
To say in the results table that a tyre deflation caused Kovalainen's retirement is misleading and in fact, wrong. We are concerned with what directly caused the retirement, which in his case was an accident. If he just had a tyre deflation, why did he not cruise round to the pits and change the wheel? Answer: Because he had a huge accident and retired. If we follow the other direction, what caused the tyre deflation? Why don't we put that as a reason for retirement?

Bourdais: To say he retired due to suspension failure is incorrect. His supension was broken by a collision. To merely state "suspension" suggests a mechanical failure. When this article has calmed down, these things will be changed. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, i think you wrong for Kovalainen, he is on the fast area of the track, whatever, Ros Dennis already said that in the post race conference. So, this is not avoidable. And what i see in the video is Kova had a tyre deflation, so no one push him, "accident" is incorrect. That is no why in accident, when it comes, it will. So, if you said he haven't cruise into the pits and change it, i didn't accept. Think rational, if your car suffered puncture at the halfway, you have a think that this will happen? I can say no! --Aleen f 1 16:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * A tyre being completely shredded because of debris or a whell failure is not a 'tire deflation'. He retired from the grand prix because he had a very bad accident (which was caused by the shredded tire) - I would have thought that this was obvious. You don't put 'driver error' as a cause for other accidents, do you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.213.85.172 (talk) 11:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Regardless of what you think, or what you think RD said, the tyre deflation was not the cause of Kovalainen's retirement. "Accident" has nothing to do with whether or not he had contact with anyone else. Throughout all the race reports, this is how this kind of retirement is explained, so this one should be no different. The rest of what you said there makes no sense, so I can't comment. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile, www.f1.com and www.gp.com both say "Accident", which is good enough for me. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * So if my word my no sense, how about the other? It is shown Accident for Barrichello, it shown Accident for Bourdais, if the F1.com official report is good enough for you, why not all those the other? Can you explain? --Aleen f 1 05:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't believe there's even an argument here, surely it makes enough sense, and it's the long-accepted method of dealing with these things. Yes, www.f1.com states "accident" for Bourdais and Barrichello, but we can safely add more detail to differentiate between, for example, Bourdais' retirement and Piquet's. Piquet retired out on the circuit as a direct result of the collision, he could go no further - so "Accident" or "Collision" are the only ways to describe it. Bourdais continued to the pits where he retired from suspension failure caused by his accident. Surely you can see the difference? So we have "Suspension (Collision)" as the reason for retirement. It's so clear.

Barrichello - at the moment we have "damage" because I believe we didn't have any more specific information than that. I will now change that to "Collision damage" because that is why he retired. He hit Fisichella in the pitlane, and eventually had to retire as a result of the subsequent damage. That is clarified in the article.

Kovalainen - He had a mechanical failure which caused an accident. In order to differentiate between mechanical failures that don't cause accidents and those that do, we have to be specific. If a driver retires due to brake problems, we say "Brakes". If he retires because his brakes failed and he smashed into a wall, it is ridiculous to say "Brakes". We can either say "Accident" or "Accident (Brakes)" or something like that. It's about giving full information. When the reason for Kovalainen's car failure is clear, we can add it. To give "tyre deflation" as the full and total reason for his retirement is just plain wrong. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Importance
I've dropped the page to mid importance (see here), to conform with the Belgian one. Apterygial (talk) 10:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments
Good work so far; I have made some very minor changes and additions! I also have some minor points to raise.

Racism issue
I think a paragraph could be included in the "Background" section about the potential threat of the race being cancelled, or the organisers facing sanctions, due to the racial abuse directed at Hamilton during winter testing at the same circuit. The editor's comment for this race report in Autocourse is entirely on the issue of racism in Formula One, so I'd be happy to knock up a paragraph for the article.
 * Thanks. I think that would be a great addition. Aptery  gial  03:58, 13 A pril 2009 (UTC)
 * Done.-- Diniz  (talk)  22:37, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Kovalainen's impact speed
I think the 140 mph figure refers to the apex speed of Campsa, not the impact speed itself. Autocourse says that McLaren estimated the impact speed to be between 125 and 135 mph (p. 126).
 * I've fixed it up using the Autoscourse ref. Aptery  gial  03:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Quotations
The Autocourse annual has several additional quotations, which may be of some use: -- Diniz  (talk)  17:04, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "I don't think I lost consciousness at any point. The first people who arrived reported that I was awake and trying to help them, but I don't remember that.  After such a hit on the head, I think the body shuts things down automatically to protect your brain.  It would be good one day of the whole image came back to me, but at the moment all I can talk about is what I saw on the video." - Heikki Kovalainen (p. 126)
 * "Heikki's misfortune overshadowed the event, but people shouldn't overlook the quality of his performance. He had still to pit for fuel at the time of the accident and wasn't due to come in for a few more laps.  That gives you some idea of the load he was carrying during qualifying, when he did an absolutely stonking lap." - Martin Whitmarsh (p. 126)
 * "We could have gone much faster, for sure, but there's no point risking anything or using the engine more than you need. Perhaps the others were a little closer than we expected, but without the safety cars, I think things might have looked different." - Kimi Räikkönen (p. 126)
 * "I know from past experience that Robert is one of the hardest guys to pass, but I got good traction off the line and immediately moved to his right. I don't think he was expecting that.  From there on, it was fairly plain sailing, and after two bad races it feels good to be back on the podium." - Lewis Hamilton (pp. 126-127)
 * "The car was absolutely flawless. I obviously knew the grip would drop off when we switched to harder tyres for the final stint, but the difference was probably a bit bigger than we'd anticipated.  Other than that, I concentrated on looking after the car.  Once Fernando had blown up, I knew fifth was in the bag, so I was short-shifting and turned the engine down by about 250 rpm towards the end.  I was pretty comfortable." - Mark Webber (p. 127)
 * "These things happen, but it has cost us a couple of precious points." - Jarno Trulli on being called into the pits by mistake (p. 127)
 * "The car's rear end was a bit twitchy at first, but the balance was very good during the middle stint, once the track rubbered in. This isn't one of our better circuits, though.  It's quite bumpy and I don't think our ride quality is great compared with some of the other teams, so I expect we'll get a better idea about the benefit of our recent updates when we get to Turkey." - Jenson Button (pp. 127-128)
 * "I'd taken a defensive line, but Timo still tried to pass me and we both suffered. I was running behind Jenson at the time and he finished, what, sixth?  It's a disaster really, but given recent events, I don't suppose anyone is going to listen to me complaining about one driver hitting another." - David Coulthard (p. 128)
 * Thanks. I do want to be careful overloading with information, for example, I don't really want to discuss Heikki's injuries any more than I have, because as he was essentially OK I think his comments about safety are more pertinent to this article. More detailed coverage should be given at his bio page, though. I've already used Kimi's quote (from the press conference) in the second quote box (both quote boxes, Kimi, nice work!) I generally don't discuss positions lower than the podium anyway, probably better on the bio or car pages. Aptery  gial  03:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Promoted as a Good Article
This is a well written and informative article with no serious issues. Good quality cites. Discussion: Talk:2008 Spanish Grand Prix/GA1. Those involved in making this a Good Article are encouraged to help out by reviewing another article: Good article nominations.  SilkTork  *YES! 12:35, 16 May 2009 (UTC)