Talk:2008 Summer Olympics torch relay/Archive 3

Man on the 1st photo
Is he sir Roy Gardner? Six torchbearers in Stratford were named here. One of them, Francesca Martinez refused in protest and was replaced by "a young Londoner". Only sir Roy Gardner suits by the age, but is it him? Av0id3r (talk) 17:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't think so ..' see. I don't see why that particular image is at the top of the article either. --Lucyintheskywithdada (talk) 20:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Error ??
Under the heading of "North Korea", a second paragraph sentence reads: "The United Nations Organization and its children's agency UNICEF withdrew their staff from, saying that it wasn't sure the event[...]". They "withdrew their staff from what? Hoping someone knows. (Nicolaususry (talk) 02:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC))

Merge
Discussion moved from Talk:2008 Summer Olympics torch relay route--Huaiwei (talk) 12:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think this (2008 Summer Olympics torch relay route) should be merged with the 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay article. The torch relay is notable, but there's nothing notable about the route. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The tables were originally moved out of the 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay to this page (2008 Summer Olympics torch relay route). It was well over the space limit of 100kb.  It is still over the limit at 154kb.  Actually more stuff should be moved here.  Also this is not a violation of WP is not a directory. The info is relevant to the event itself. You can put it in a paragraph if you like.  It'll just be much harder to read. Benjwong (talk) 03:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge: the 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay article is already too long. — Chris!  c t 03:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Merge provided we stick to the nested and collapsible tables which originally existed in the main article. In fact, it is even possible to nest detailed lists of torchbearers (plus the detailed route maps) within a compact master table. That article size limitation is no longer a technical requirement, and is there to avoid articles becoming too long. If most of the codes are in collapsible tables however, it is no longeer an issue of article length either.--Huaiwei (talk) 12:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This page is currently ranked #124 as being the longest article on wikipedia. When pages load, it loads all templates and nested tables at once. After 400kb the page may not render properly. Benjwong (talk) 16:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Could you give a real example of how it will not render properly?--Huaiwei (talk) 18:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Preferably you should check with the people who wrote | the section. Benjwong (talk) 21:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * So it is an imagined problem. That section begins with "In the past, because of some now rarely used browsers, technical considerations prompted a strong recommendation that articles be limited to a maximum of precisely 32 KB in size, since editing any article longer than that would cause severe problems.[2] With the advent of the section editing feature and the availability of upgrades for the affected browsers, this once hard and fast rule has been softened and many articles now exist which are over 32 KB of total text size." I think it is about time we get on with the times and update ourselves on certain guidelines.--Huaiwei (talk) 21:45, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you miss this part: "Even so, the total article size should be kept reasonably low, because there are many users that edit from low-speed connections." Besides, I really don't see why the current arrangement is not good. It makes editing easier. — Chris!  c t 00:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose BillyTFried (talk) 22:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Merge and shrink both by about 80%. My understanding is that Wikipedia is not a news site, but an encyclopedia.  The disproportionate coverage given to this topic seems driven primarily by its currency...compare to the article on the 2004 relay. 71.9.8.150 (talk) 13:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment on that last point. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, which aims at giving as complete and relevent a coverage as possible in each of its articles. The fact that the article on the 2004 relay is short does not mean that this article should be purged of almost all its content. Besides, you're missing the rather obvious fact that the 2008 relay had stirred a lot more controversy and generated a lot more interest and comment than the 2004 one. I, for one, feel that we've done a splendid job on making this article comprehensive and highly informative, quite probably the best source of information available for anyone interested in the topic. I'd like to congratulate everyone who's contributed to it. Aridd (talk) 15:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur with User:Aridd. Everyone did a great job. — Chris!  c t 20:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't agree with the premise that "more" = "better." On the contrary, I think over-writing, redundancy, and unnecessary trivia are the real banes of articles like this one, and this site in general.  They obfuscate more often than not.  Noting that the 2008 relay caused some controversy, and that there was media backlash, should take about two paragraphs.  Not the SEVENTY-NINE (I counted) currently devoted to the topic.  Quoting each and every official who had a comment on the issue is not going to inform anyone.  It's going to drown them. 71.9.8.150 (talk) 23:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't understand what you are complaining about? The article provides readers a thorough account about the event, the controversies and other information regarding the torch relay. There are no redundancy or trivia or anything like that, as far as I can see. The article never quotes "each and every official who had a comment on the issue," except from several notable people. The fact that the article has 79 lines doesn't necessarily mean this article is bad or overwritten. If you see a problem, please be specific. Editors here are ready to assist you. — Chris!  c t 00:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Not seventy-nine lines. Seventy-nine PARAGRAPHS, all detailing, ad-nauseum, every single official who chimed in on the controversy.  That's outside the actual supposed topic of the article, which would be the relay itself.  That's not a useful summary of information, but a great, ugly wash of trivia.  It's like someone asking "how was your morning," and you describe the co-efficient of friction of every single brushstroke when you brushed your teeth.  That degree of "thorough" actually inhibits the efficient transfer of information.71.9.8.150 (talk) 06:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Even if there are seventy-nine paragraphs, the article is not too long. It is just very thorough and informative. It seems to me that you misunderstood the concept of an encyclopedia. It is SUPPOSED to be "comprehensive." — Chris!  c t 17:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think I've misunderstood what an encyclopedia is, any more than I've mistaken your condescending attitude. Please modify it.  "Comprehensive" != "exhaustive."  Wikipedia is, by policy, not an "indiscriminate collection of information."  That suggests that one must, therefore, "discriminate" between what information is worthy of inclusion and what is not.  In particular, "Even when an event is notable, individuals involved in it may not be," and several of those quoted in this article aren't.  Moreover, there is a separate project, wikinews, developed specifically because articles on current news events often get stuffed disproportionately with unnecessary and obfuscating dross.  This article is a case in point.  Yes, noting that there were protests, counterprotests, and some sloganeering by both Western media and politicians and authorities in China is noteworthy.  The statements of Thupten Gyatso on the topic, the exact number of personnel deployed in Malaysia, and the ABSCENCE of protests in Oman, are NOT noteworthy.  71.9.8.150 (talk) 21:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry to say, but I still don't think you understand what Wikipedia is. Yes, you are entirely right that Wikipedia is not a new agency and doesn't usually report news. But Wikipedia does have articles about certain news because they are notable and they, as the same policy has pointed out, have historical notability. Now, can you really argue that this torch relay is not notable now or will never be in the future? Not really, because I don't think you can deny that this is a global event that had generated notability and will be remembered for a long time. Since the event itself is notable, Wikipedia documents this event and everything else surrounding it in an article comprehensively. Because of this, all the protests are important, the counter protests are important, what happened in every stops is important and how governments and authorities handle the incident is important. I can't think of a reason why you would think these are not noteworthy and why you would like to delete anything.


 * This article in its current state is also not a collection of indiscriminate or exhaustive information as you have implied. Instead, I think this is a collection of organized and comprehensive information. So nothing is this article has violate any policy. The last point I want to make is that I never speak to you in a condescending tone. If you think I did, then I apologize. — Chris!  c t 00:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * To put it another way, the fact that the article deals with contemporary events does not mean it should therefore be less comprehensive than an article about some event that happened years ago. The article as it is provides readers with thorough coverage of everything that's relevent to the topic. As far as I know, this article is the only existing source of such information brought together. In other words, it provides an in-depth, detailed, encyclopedic coverage of the topic. We've adhered to notability and relevence guidelines in including information. Also, if a topic is worthy of having an article in Wikipedia (as this one unquestionably is), then there's no reason for that article to be a brief, two paragraph synthesis of some newspaper article, rather than be a thorough encyclopedic article. Aridd (talk) 07:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think I suggested it should be LESS comprehensive than an article on an historic event...merely that there was no rationale for making it so very, very, very, VERY much more exhaustive. I'm looking at this from the perspective of a professional instructor of rhetoric at the university level, where I often have to slowly and painfully bring my students around to the realization that providing every single potentially relevant detail often obscures information, rather than enhancing it.  The failure to follow that principle and recognize the distinction between useful and useless information is one of Wikipedia's major failings (c.f. Wikigroaning).  Ah well, I'll keep trying.71.9.8.150 (talk) 13:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

What you say is true in, say, an academic or legal scenario where human beings are forced or expected to follow through arguments. Where a Wiki, and internet as a whole, is different from spoken and paper mediums is the power of their search engine. One does not have to, and I presume most don't, read it "a, b, c" nor, in practice, are topics judged by good academic standards which themselves are also limited by the previous formalities of paper medium. I have seen a few good and some very bad "academics" run on the rocks badly on the Wikipedia by attempting to enforce such standards AND spoil articles. Thankfully, you show none of the latter's arrogance or conceitedness. I am just suggesting to go with the way things are because fighting it will give you grief from both sides. On one hand, readers just jump straight into the middle of an article, so it does not matter too much where the information is. On the on the other, jockeys can and will load in all the details they like.

Having said all that, the current article is too long, says too much of not a lot of importance in place and does need split not merged.

I strongly oppose merging. We can shorten it without losing anyone's pet political slant by breaking it down into linked topics. Have we reached a consensus on this by now? --Lucyintheskywithdada (talk) 20:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment: My merge proposal was not so much driven by the size of the article, but the fact that they were clearly related. The notability of the route taken is of minor significance (in comparison to the entire article) and the list of runners, which is little more than a directory of HK's rich and famous (and there was some criticism of this in the local press). This is wikipedia - as if anyone really cares exactly through which cities and which hands it passed through. For those concerned with article size and the relevance of the table in the main article, I believe that the 'route' article can be simply redirected, and the list excised. It brings nothing to the centre of interest, which is the protests, controversies and reactions thereto. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you are perhaps judging too early. Instead of saying nobody cares, is more like the exact opposite.  People care too much, and wikipedia should match whatever is in real life. Athletes left out of the routes are complaining.  Mainlanders were bidding to get the route to their neighborhood. Even the Paramount leaders want to make sure their birthplace gets on the route. And whose hands it passes through matters.  Some are already in high demand, especially the celebrities ones. If anything this is good for the olympics and worth mentioning. Benjwong (talk) 02:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Notwithstanding, I don't believe the list of 120 names x 2 should stay. It would not stop us from concentrating on the issues such as the disputes you mentioned. Ohconfucius (talk) 07:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The 120 list is every bit relevant to the relay. Is the same reason why the rosters are listed on Manchester united for a soccer team. Look at the Chinese wikipedia page, as they at least have it hidden in a template. There was also no consensus to delete. I am opposing the merge, and restoring the section. Benjwong (talk) 19:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose The article is already too long Tresiden (talk) 08:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose merge The article is too long. And I am restoring the 120 torchbearer list. Benjwong (talk) 19:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Merge-If merged, article could provide much more data for the reader. 138.87.160.121 (talk) 15:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Result = no merge - We have reduced the list of the 120 x 2 list to notable torchbearers only. Please see Talk:2008_Summer_Olympics_torch_relay_route for further info. Benjwong (talk) 04:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Propose split
As the above appears to be opposed, I propose splitting section marked on page "Sequence of events" to a new "mainpage" linked to from the main article. --Lucyintheskywithdada (talk) 01:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - This seems more reasonable. After a split, this is the main page.  The "Sequence of events" can be about all the political events.  The "relay route" page should be just listings of participants and maps of route etc. Benjwong (talk) 18:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - I am slowly moving any list of notable torchbearer participants to the 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay route article. The "sequence of events" should be just "events" like the title say. Opinions anyone? If nobody mind, I'll end up reducing that section. Benjwong (talk) 06:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

they are driving force, not obstacles!
These impediments can only make the Olympics torch relay continue... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rainandsky (talk • contribs) 12:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Should we include a section on the Nazi origins of the torch relay?
Should this article include a section on the Nazi origins of the Olympic torch relay? -- Rising Sun Wiki  15:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that is adequately covered in the main article Olympic flame. I am not sure what purpose would be served by raising that on this page. Whatever the specific origins of the relay may be, it has become a part of the Olympic tradition. - EronTalk 16:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It would surely be comparison between the fact that international relays such as this were concieved politically, and this has been used politically. In additional light of the fact that it could well be the last of the great international torch relays, it would have adequate grounds for being in the article. There's even been comparison in the media about it. A full on section is a definite no, but it's worth a mention. Crimsone (talk) 02:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with both RisingSunWiki and Crimsone. The origins of the flag don't belong here, but its political ratifications do —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kransky (talk • contribs) 04:35, 4 June 2008

What political ramifications? What is the encyclopedic value to be gained in describing the government that was in place in Germany the first time a torch relay was used? Will this information be added to every article about every Olympic torch relay? I really don't see the point of that. Anyone wanting information on the origins of the torch relay can find it easily in the appropriate article. Inserting references to Nazi Germany into this article seem more like unencyclopedic commentary - attempts to draw parallels between the two regimes. - EronTalk 12:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I pray there's no implication to draw any parallel between German Nazi and PRC Communist Party, considering their international political controversies. After all I disagree of the inclusion. As Eron stated, that justifies the inclusion about Nazi origins to ALL other relay articles and indeed sounds ridiculous. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 13:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And Crimsone, pardon for my offense. If someday Ireland, maybe Dublin hosts the Game and I include the Nazi origins in the respective relay article with the same reason you said in here, would you comply? -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 13:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If they use the relay as an international propaganda tool, yes. The WHole Affair may well have put paid to international torch relays though - The IOC has realised that they can be moe trouble than they're worth. As I said, by the way - there is a perfectly valid and citable comparison over the way the torch relay has been used. I draw no comparison between the regimes apart from their respective penchants for propaganda through politicisation of the olympic torch relay... 1936 being the first, and 2008 being the longest, if not the last. great many sources have made the comparison in that sense (and the only sense in which I feel it belongs), because the comparison is a valid one. Crimsone (talk) 15:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, by the way - It's only the north that's been under British control - and even that is under a shared power system since the Good Friday Agreement. If Dublin were to hold the games, they'd have no political point worth making with the torch relay. I rather doubt such would be the case in the incredibly unlikely event of Belfast holding the games either. Crimsone (talk) 15:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

If there are reliable sources that have drawn comparisons between the 1936 relay and the 2008 relay, and if that coverage can be considered notable, then there should be no problem with including information about that coverage in the Reaction or Media coverage portions of the article. Something along the lines of "Several commentators have drawn parallels between this torch relay and the first torch relay, conducted prior to the 1936 Berlin Olympic Games." It would need to be properly referenced, and a quote would probably be suitable as well. This would serve the encyclopedic purpose of noting that such commentary exists without taking a position on one side or the other.

What would not be appropriate would be the insertion of a paragraph describing the origins of the relay, and perhaps drawing parallels, simply as part of the body of the article. This would risk violating NPOV and would make the article into a commentary on the relay rather than a description of the facts about it. - EronTalk 16:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * My thought the same. If there are any powerful source, citing the comparison between the 2 relays is acceptable. But any phrases which lead to suggestive or undesirable (to someone) conclusion such as the terms "Nazi" and "Communist" should be avoided. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 00:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, there is indeed a parallel can be drawn... it could be perhaps described in the imperfect statement that "The extended nature of this relay, making it the longest in Olympic history, with an attempt to scale the highest point in the world (Everest) has drawn commentary comparisons between this relay, and the origins of the relay as a political propaganda tool in the 1936 Berlin Olympics. The relay itself has been seen by commentators as an attempt to assert and reach greater acceptance of China as a significant world power, with the Olympic flame's parallel excursion to Mt. Everest seen in both that light, and as an attempt to obtain absolute recognition of China as dominant over the Autonimous Tibetan Region in which the mountain is based.".
 * It states the sole comparison as being between the two relays (not the two regimes), the comparison being in it's use for propagandist political ends only - which is of note not only because this relay has prompted a greater awareness of the origins of international Olympic relays, but because in being politicised it has reasserted those origins, and is indeed the opposite end of the same scale (again, the relay, not the regimes themselves, as should be evident by now) for the same purpose, and possibly the last. Crimsone (talk) 07:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see a problem with that sort of description as long as it is supported by valid references to reliable sources where such comments have been made. - EronTalk 13:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The sources are out there - I checked :) (mostly blogs and online newspaper articles and editorials) - but I'll leave someone else to decide where such a statement should be in the article (a subsection of the controversies or media coverage secions I would guess) and to add it in... I say a subsection, because it is pretty much a stand-alone issue, and though I haven't seen one, there may well be a counterpoint.
 * However, as I say, I'll leave it to another to make that choice and add it in. Last time I got involved in the actual editing of this article it went awry (if you've seen my talk page you'll understand,and I'm not well enough to chance it) Crimsone (talk) 16:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

This is another example of anti-China 狗屎. What happened during the Berlin Olympics and Beijing Olympics have no parallels in common, and the people throwing accusations and controversies are doing so under blindness and stubbornness. Regardless of what it was during Berlin, or in the past, the Olympic torch is seen today as a symbol of harmony. When it went through the Sydney Olympics and Athens Olympics, I'm pretty sure that was what most of you were thinking too. Also, Nazism is far-right; "communism" is far-left - they barely AGREE with each other, let alone are similar. China is NOT A COMMUNIST STATE it is a SOCIALIST STATE. When I went to the shops in China, I had to PAY for food. Communism is the 5th stage of Marxist theory, where everything is free, due to an overabundance of resources. To this date, there is NO SUCH THING AS A BONA-FIDE COMMUNIST COUNTRY. Tribalism to Feudalism to Capitalism to Socialism to Communism, China is socialist. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs 07:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The example text I gave is not in the slightest bit anti-china, nor did it compare or even mention the political sylings of either country. It is purely a NPOV description of what happened. Additionally, Capitalism and communism (as it is most commonly percieved) can both have something in common - they can both be authoritarian and even fascist (sovietism, for example). The old left/right way of thinking can only ever be a rough guide, as economic and social policies can be and usually are, seperate entities... That is however by the by, and I refer you back to my first senstence. Crimsone (talk) 16:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Beijing news vs. Olympic Torch Relay information.
Certain parts of the page are becoming unreadable, and have little to nothing to do with the actual torch relay. For instance, the anti-CNN page paragraph seems like it might be relevant, except that there is no mention of anything related to the Olympics in the article. While the connection might exist, it seems like a logical jump to include it in an encyclopedic article on the 2008 torch relay. While I'm not suggesting that there are no legitimate controversies regarding the situation, we need to look at paring back the article in some ways. Chazerizer (talk) 21:45, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Protests scrubbed?
I'm a little surprised to see the protests against the relay minimized. In San Francisco's case, the only North American stop, to a single footnote. It was major news leading up to and following the event and there was controversies related just to it. Banj e b oi   06:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

North Korea's regime
I see my constructive edit when I corrected a small mistake about N. Korea was rejected. Please at least read an article about North Korea before rehecting constructive edits. Thank you. -- Wisconsus   TALK | things  15:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I am quoting the sentence from the article about N. Korea: "North Korea is widely considered to be a [totalitarianistic] Stalinist dictatorship." So please do not revert my edit. -- Wisconsus   TALK | things  16:06, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I do not do any edits to this article, because the source this article quoted uses the word "authoritarian". Let it be. The truth is in the article "North Korea". -- Wisconsus   TALK | things  16:09, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The North Korea article doesn't use the word 'totalitarian'. Arguably 'authoritarian' is a broader concept, than the more controversial term 'totalitarianism'. --Soman (talk) 08:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, but is written "North Korea is considered to be Stalinistic dictatorship", and there is no doubt Stalinism is totalitarianism, that fact is written in the beginning of the article. That means N. Korea's regime is totalitarian. The sentence in 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay about N. Korea's regime sounds wrongly, because there are many authoritarian countries in the world, but only N. Korea is considered to be totalitarian. That is because many sources says it is authoritarian. Talking about nowadays world, the word totalitarianism sounds too unusual. However, the fact that N. Korea's regime is totalitarian is easily provable. The criterions on which totalitarian regime is based are suited to N. Korea's regime. -- Wisconsus   TALK | things  12:18, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Canvassing by Benlisquare
Note that Benlisquare is canvassing at Anti-cnn and is asking to manipulate Wikipedia to counter a perceived Anti-Chinese bias, see. This article is mentioned in his forum post. Novidmarana (talk) 18:33, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Human Rights Torch Relay
Please stop removing this reference, the Human Rights Torch Relay started because of the 2008 Summer Olympics, so it has relevance here. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 13:43, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This article is not the place to put every nitty-bitty detail with the slightest relevance. There are things that are specifically relevant and things that are remotely related; I can name a myriad of other things that can be placed in this article, but as per WP:NOT WP:N, this article is only restricted to its immediate events and impacts. There are enough information on criticisms in the actual body during the relay; there is no purpose in briefly mentioning a scarcely-notable copycat relay, other than the purpose of POV-pushing. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 14:08, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Human Rights Torch Relay went to 5 continents, 150 cities, received media attention in every place, and it was done as direct response to the 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay . What do you mean "scarcely-notable copycat relay"? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 14:27, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, ibid WP:NOT WP:N. Sora Aoi attended the "2008 Japan Sex Expo". Does that mean that I can paste the minutest of references to Sora Aoi onto an article on the expo if it existed? See what I mean? Can you see that there is a limit to how much information is necessary? Of all the hundreds of attendees at the Tokyo expo, why her? Why not Maria Ozawa or Tina Yuzuki? Now, of all the events which happened during and after the 2008 Relay, why this? Is this HR Relay as relevant to the 2008 Relay as Sora Aoi is to the Japan Expo? Can you really argue that they are not on the same level? And back to Maria Ozawa and Tina Yuzuki: if I were to include references to every single AV idol that attended the expo, don't you think that would get a bit too redundant and pointless, needlessly stretching the article size to 80,000KB, and if this was done on every single WP article, to stretch the load in which the WP servers take? Do you see why we can't include "everything" in an article? That is why we keep to what is most closely relevant. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 14:46, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I still think that it deserves one line like this to mention it in the Reactions section. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 20:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

RfC: Does the Human Rights Torch Relay merit to be noted in 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay article
Does the Human Rights Torch Relay merits to be noted in the 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay article? Please see pro/cons opinion here. HappyInGeneral (talk) 20:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments - I agree with HappyInGeneral's position that a single line be included in the reactions section. The Human Rights Torch Relay was a major international event that came to be as a reaction to the 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay and it is relevant and notable enough to warrant such a mention.  Nutiketaiel (talk) 16:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... nope If the article you are trying to link to was actually about the topic you're trying to make it appear, then maybe. Right now, you're pushing for the inclusion of a re-direct to Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong. Nice try, though... Seb az86556 (talk) 08:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The Human Rights Torch Relay was recently merged into CIPFG and the link seems totally natural to me. I don't think this argument you're making is valid--you seem to be saying it's inappropriate to have a wiki-link to a topic that redirects to a larger parent topic, if there is only a sourceable connection between the page and the "child" topic and not between the page and that parent topic.  I don't think this argument, in general, is ever valid.  You wikify links as relevant, and then deal with merges.  If you don't like the result of a redirect, maybe you would want to go to the CIPFG page and dispute that merge (it seems they were merged because the page on the Human Rights Torch Relay was rather short).  Cazort (talk) 18:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What part of WP:NOT are you referring to, Benlisquare? Neither 'Immediate', nor 'events', nor 'impacts' are on that page associated with anything like what you are saying. Anarchangel (talk) 10:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * QUOTE: "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information: As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia." Although I do see that stating WP:N would be much more clear than WP:NOT, my bad. Back to the main issue, though, I personally don't see how this event meets notability for the Olympics relay; the event is barely related other than the word "relay" and involving people holding torches running in circles, while also being a rather insignificant event. Place in "Human Rights in China", then yes, maybe, but placing it here is redundant in my view. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 11:16, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: Think of it this way: If I used the word "relay" and started my own event in protest of the price of tofu in Shenzhen, calling it the "Tofu Torch Relay", and hired a few hundred people to run in circles for a PR campaign, should I place it here? It's related to China, since it's about some horrendous issue in Shenzhen, and it involves a "torch relay" (albeit a copycat to the original, as with the HR relay), why shouldn't my Tofu relay be included? Do you now see how WP:N works? Now think about this: to what extent is the HR relay directly related to the Olympics relay itself? And I mean directly, without going three blocks down fifth avenue and up the stairs and implying a redundant correlation (for example, Hitler owned a dog, dogs are carnivores, carnivores are known to eat pidgeons, Pidgin English is spoken in Hong Kong, therefore Hitler should be mentioned in Hong Kong... although this is merely a basic and rather extreme example, but you should all understand what I am implying). Thus, mentioning the HR relay is something that simply does not belong that well in this article. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 11:29, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree. This was a publicity stunt which hot a few column inches, when we can assume wasn't any front pages. I was the one who removed it, just like I would have removed trivia on any other article. Ohconfucius (talk) 14:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: The Human Rights Torch Relay was a significant ramification of the Beijing Olympics torch relay and has more than enough relevance in this article. Cydevil38 (talk) 15:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * A subsection and a paragraph or two is not overdoing it. By the way, I'm embarrassed to even come here saying this, as should be Confucius and Seb. We're going to seem like partisans at this rate. I would love for these kind of things to be decided by people who mostly read books and play the piano and only have a passing interest in the Chinese Communist Party's human rights abuses.--Asdfg12345 18:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I suggest you strike this comment about my being partisan. Seriously. Seb az86556 (talk) 19:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * @Asdfg12345: Overdoing it? It is a redirect to a remotely related "relay" that is basicly a public relations campaign, a publicity stunt for The Epoch Times to run a 5000-word "special issue" about, is that overdoing it? --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 23:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I am only "partisan" insofar as I am not a Falun Gong devotee. I agree the above labelling should be withdrawn, as it sounds like we are being accused of being anti-Falun Gong or pro-CCP, which we are not. Anyway, as my actions may have led to this RfC, I was only explaining why I removed the sentence. I don't see it being more than trivia, but I don't feel very strongly about it either. Ohconfucius (talk) 17:51, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for pointing out that you actually succeeded in merging HRTR into CIPFG. See talk: Talk:Human_Rights_Torch_Relay. When I'll have time I'll get back to that. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 22:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment on notability: Sorry it took so long but here is the section pointing out the notability of the Human Rights Torch Relay event. See: Talk:Human_Rights_Torch_Relay. As you can see sources do refer to it as a competing torch relay   .  --HappyInGeneral (talk) 23:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding your list at Talk:Human_Rights_Torch_Relay, :I personally am not so sure that it is of any aid... WP:BOMBARD? --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 01:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Neutral. The notablily of the HR relay is borderline to be mentioned. If mentioned, it should be kept down to a sentence (definitely not in the lede) in the appropriate section.--Edward130603 (talk) 00:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Must echo the above; if it is placed (and no change of stance intended), it must be done in a way which would be non-controversial, given that it is a controversial issue. Placing it in the LEDE is an overkill. But this is only in regards to placement, and not WP:N, which needs further discussion. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 01:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment on notability: I think the event was "notable" (enough) for print media such as the New Zealand Herald http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10482783 to have reported about it in detail. The event was in direct association to the actual touch relay, so a short mentioning (including link to the article) seems appropriate. Mootros (talk) 13:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment...I agree with Mootro's point that (a) the event was in association with the torch relay, and (b) the coverage itself references this association. Also, a third point, (c) the main article on the torch relay already has detailed discussion of other protests, controversies, reactions. I feel very strongly about this. Currently, it seems however, that the Human Rights Torch Relay is already mentioned in the article. So I would support keeping things more or less as-is. Cazort (talk) 18:20, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Good observation Cazort, to my same, I did not notice this before. Thank You! --HappyInGeneral (talk) 18:32, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There's plenty of it in the Argentina section; we don't need any more. A mention is already in the main body. What more do some people want? --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 09:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Non-notable: Writing like this is a violation of WP:Advocacy and WP:PROMOTION. In addition the website of the relay has expired. This is not place to promote FLG nor air your dirty laundry about human rights in China.--PCPP (talk) 08:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It should be mentioned. But only factual info, please be short and factual and keep NPOV in check.I believe we need more information-not less.Nothing is black and white in the information age. If it is relevant(it is), factual, non emotional it only can give some more depth, perspective and richness to the article.As to "dirty laundry" - wake up, pal you are living in the information age-everybody's dirty laundry is in full view ( look under Batterfly effect) --Rm125 (talk) 07:20, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It is mentioned, see the Argentina section. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 08:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 14:37, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 14 external links on 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080422063102/http://fr.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080418/twl-chine-carrefour-manifestation-bd5ae06.html to http://fr.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080418/twl-chine-carrefour-manifestation-bd5ae06.html
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080412072407/http://torchrelay.beijing2008.cn/en/journey/sanfrancisco/news/n214299177.shtml to http://torchrelay.beijing2008.cn/en/journey/sanfrancisco/news/n214299177.shtml
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 05:38, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140328200415/http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20080402-127972/Paris-to-greet-Olympic-flame-with-protest%E2%80%94mayor to http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20080402-127972/Paris-to-greet-Olympic-flame-with-protest%E2%80%94mayor
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080416055249/http://www.infobae.com/contenidos/373962-100891-0-Antorcha-ol%C3%ADmpica-llega-la-ciudad-Buenos-Aires to http://www.infobae.com/contenidos/373962-100891-0-Antorcha-ol%C3%ADmpica-llega-la-ciudad-Buenos-Aires

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080415061812/http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-7454494,00.html to http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-7454494,00.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080620074542/http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30070948 to http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30070948
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121006102237/http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=%2F2008%2F4%2F22%2Fapworld%2F20080422101055&sec=apworld to http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=%2F2008%2F4%2F22%2Fapworld%2F20080422101055&sec=apworld

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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