Talk:2008 attacks on Christians in southern Karnataka

Name change
I would suggest that the name of the article be changed. The attacks were not only confined to Mangalore. It occurred in other parts of the Dakshina Kannada district, Udupi district and Chikkamagaluru district. Perhaps, September 2008 attacks on Christians in Southern Karnataka. Joyson Noel Holla at me!  14:07, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion
A map showing the districts affected by the attacks would be great! Joyson Noel Holla at me!  14:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Good idea, I will look at making one.♦ Dr. Blofeld  14:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Can you list for me all of the districts affected by it then?♦ Dr. Blofeld  14:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC) The areas affected by the attacks, to my knowledge:


 * Dakshina Kannada district – Sub-districts are Mangalore, Bantwal, Puttur, Sullia and Belthangady.
 * Udupi district – Sub-districts are Udupi, Karkala and Kundapur
 * Chikkamagaluru district - Sub-districts are Chikmagalur, Kadur, Mudigere, Shringeri, Narasimharajapura
 * Hassan district (not certain) – Sub-districts are Hassan, Holenarsipur, Arkalgud, Channarayanapatana, Sakleshpur, Belur, Alur, Arasikere.
 * I am not sure about how many sub-districts were affected in Chikkamagaluru or if at all in Hassan. You will have to verify that. Joyson Noel  Holla at me!  15:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice work! Would you please mark Mangalore and the districts in the image, and remove the heading on the image? Joyson Noel  Holla at me!  10:35, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Mahendra Kumar image
I have obtained OTRS permission from Mangalorean.com to use the following image, and it has been confirmed that they have sent permission today. An OTRS ticket should be issued soon. This image is of former Bajrang Dal convenor Mahendra Kumar at his arrest on 19 September 2008. He admitted to having ordered attacks on New Life prayer halls. Please feel free to use it in the article.
 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mahendra_Kumar.jpg

Joyson Noel Holla at me!  09:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Daijiworld videos
I have uploaded the Daijiworld videos here:
 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Videos_of_2008_attacks_on_Christians_in_southern_Karnataka

Joyson Noel Holla at me!  19:59, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Tone/ POV Hindu "activists" and Catholic "violence"
I don't quite understand the reason "WP:Lead" for the reverts you made

Is it against WP:Lead to ask for WP:Verification? Special:Diff/1053336119

You have claimed my edits are unsourced Special:Diff/1053486019, but the current revision of the leade has no sources for peaceful Bajrang Dal "activists" and Catholics being violent, except the first few lines.

My contribs Special:Diff/1053336119 brought the article closer to WP:MOS, there was repetitive content in the lead that i had removed. Your reverts have made the lead WP:Verbose. My edits brought the article closer to WP:Lead and MOS as far I can see.

Your revision has also brought the unsourced "Bajarang dal activists" and Catholic violence WP:POV back into the article. The lead gives the false impression that Christian minority are the violent ones, while making ideologues of Hindu fascism look like the victims or "activists". Do activists indulge in violence vandalism arson and threats against freedom of religion/ conversion? It is fascists who do it.

It is interesting to note that you did not revert sockpuppetry Special:Diff/1053396630 for weeks until i made attempts improve the article, probably because the article still had the Bajrang Dal "activists" and "Catholics ever resorted to violence" WP:Tone. Are my contribs so much worse than sockpuppetry?

Only after i made contributions that you found a reason to erase all my contribs on the flimsy grounds of "unsourced" when much of the lead is poorly sourced.

I reiterate, the current revision Special:Diff/1053396630 contains a WP:POV that is sympathetic to and has soft tone to the Hindu "activists" who threatened NLFT with more violence in order to stop conversions/ freedom of religion. Nolicmahr (talk) 12:11, 5 November 2021 (UTC)


 * @Nolicmahr:It is not against WP:LEAD to ask for verification. This is a GA article, the lead should summarize the article and lead does not necessarily need sources and the sources are in the body per WP:LEADCITE. I see no reason to tag the article asking for more sources while the article has 120 sources. You are free to add to the lead if you believe it does not adequately summarize the article but you can't use words like 'fascism', 'Sanghi' etc. if they are not in the article's body and make sure you write it without WP:OR. I never claimed "unsourced" in my revert, please check it again. WP:VERBOSE is an essay about talk pages not articles.


 * The article's body states that Christians pelted stones on the police during their protests and that is violence not civil disobedience. How is


 * The lead does not "... gives the false impression that Christian minority are the violent ones, while making ideologues of Hindu fascism look like the victims or "activists"" in my view. The entire article passed GA criteria and is neutral. If the sources called them "activists" then we are supposed to write the same not "fascists", Wikipedia published what reliable sources say.-  SUN EYE 1  16:41, 5 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I've went ahead and restored the lead from the GA version. I agree the "Catholics ever resorted to violence" sentence is not what the article body says so I added the stone pelting incidents briefly.-  SUN EYE 1  16:41, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

GA review happened in 2012 and we can see that lots of edits have happened since then. That's how the Catholic "violence" and Hindu "activism" narrative has crept in. You yourself didn't see the sockpuppetry for weeks.

It is certainly in the realm of possibility to WP:Cherrypick sources and disguise Hindu fascists/ ultranationalists as the victimised law abiding "activists" who were being "forcibly converted" by catholic "violence", in spite of being in the ruling majority BJP Karnataka at the time.

Activists do not indulge in arson, vandalism& threatening with rape and burning as Bajrang Dal has done, this is 21st century WP:Commonsense for someone who is acquainted with basic human rights.

The stone pelting was in done in self defence against police brutality and supression of civil disobedience/ protests by Catholics. Calling acts of self defence as violence, dressing up fascist violence and rape threats as "activism" is certainly WP:POV stemming Hindu fascist far right politics. Nolicmahr (talk) 03:58, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Nothing much has happened except a few content removals. The article clearly says it was Bajrang Dal who claimed about forcible conversion. If you have sources saying for stone pelting was self-defense or anything you are claiming, you can update it but you cannot add content which is not sourced. -  SUN EYE 1  05:36, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The lead for Holocaust does not include insane claims by Nazis that the Holocaust was caused by the Jews being responsible for the German defeat in WWI, not even with attribution. This article shouldn't summarize the views of Fascists in its lead either, at least not without explicitly refuting them. Brusquedandelion (talk) 16:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay WP:Verbose may not be a Wiki guideline but WP:MOSLEAD certainly is. The lead needs to be trimmed and it certainly does not have to WP:Whitewash fascists who issued rape and burning threats as peaceful law-abiding "activists". Nolicmahr (talk) 04:26, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

"Sanghi" is not "OR" uncited info does not automatically become "OR". If you want citations for it you can make use of the citation tag, there no need to revert everything to "GA Review", that is WP:Disruptive. Nolicmahr (talk) 04:41, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * What? see WP:VERIFYOR. Uncited info can be removed by anyone at sight and you can't write your own personal analysis and use a citation tag. I don't see any reasons for it to be trimmed. The sources say activists and it will be mirrored here, see WP:STICKTOSOURCE. If they issued threats, you are free to add them with WP:RS -  SUN EYE 1  05:24, 16 November 2021 (UTC)