Talk:2009 24 Hours of Le Mans

Qualifying table
The qualifying table should not be floated to the right (as it is currently). It looks ghastly in all but a couple of screen resolutions. Also, I see no need to try to make it a visual representation of a grid - that's a misuse of a table, frankly. Make it a straight top-to-bottom table, which opens up the possibility of making it sortable. Also, separate out the car numbers and lose the "#" symbols ("#" is not used to represent "number" in most parts of the world). -- Scjessey (talk) 01:00, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd think a table 55 spaces tall and only 4 wide, with a ton of blank space, would be much more ghastly. There will be more text on the left of the qualifying results once there is a proper race report here (the clear option is only temporary).  I fail to see how a grid of the qualifying results is a misuse of a table.  This is pretty standard for most all motorsports articles on Wikipedia.  I also fail to see what use a sortable table would be.  The only options would be to sort by time (which it already is) or by alphabetical order of entrants.  IIIVIX  ( Talk ) 01:14, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There are more than 4 fields available from the qualifying data. I recommend these:
 * Rank
 * Car number
 * Class
 * Team
 * Fastest lap
 * Gap
 * Other available data includes the lap on which the fastest time was achieved, the drivers, the vehicle, the tire/tyre manufacturer, the fuel and the speed if you wanted to be really thorough; however, I believe the fields I list above are the most appropriate. With respect to misuse of table, I was referring to the attempt to reconstruct a visual representation of a grid with table markup. Also, I dispute your assertion that this is "pretty standard". The most recent F1 Grand Prix, the most recent ALMS race, the most recent FIA GT race, and the last 24 Hours of Le Mans are all examples where this grid concept has not been used. You need to consider that multiple devices are used to access Wikipedia pages, including small-screen browsers. As far as "sortable" is concerned, this was only a possibility that I floated (no pun intended). Being able to sort by car number and class would be potentially useful. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:48, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The initial chart posted yesterday was this, with again my concern being that it's way long and has lots of empty space. The information is also nearly identical to your recommendation (minus the gap field), yet still would be quite empty to the right.  The other data you mention could be added, but I believe it's either redundant (tire manufacturers, car) or unable to be found (driver which set the lap, lap on which the time was set).


 * Yes, some other series list a single long listing (although they aren't 55 entries long), but other examples such as 2009 Indianapolis 500 and 1950 British Grand Prix show the grid layout. I myself added the qualifying chart for the 2008 24 Hours of Le Mans, but I was simply looking for something this year in order to avoid having several long charts filling the page, especially when the race results are posted.


 * I understand that multiple devices are used, but as far as I remember the standard has been to at least make it readable on a computer screen with a resolution of at minimum 1024x768. IIIVIX  ( Talk ) 02:08, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * All of the information needed can be found in the PDF files here, including gaps, lap of the fastest lap time, speeds, etc. I don't believe redundancy is an issue, since it is interesting to compare the performance of cars based on vehicles types, tires, fuel, etc. Another issue that is worth mentioning is that there is a lot of overlinking going on. -- Scjessey (talk) 04:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's laps completed throughout the session, not the lap it was set on. I think the most useful piece of information which cannot be found is the driver who set each fast lap.  IIIVIX  ( Talk ) 04:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Winners
So... according to SPEED, this is the 60th anniversary of Ferrari's win at Le Mans, and they've won the GT2 class. And Peugeot's last win was 16 years ago, with a Brabham on the winning car, and they've won again, with a Brabham on the winning car... 70.29.212.226 (talk) 13:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

What happened to all GT2 Porsches? Last year they were generally faster than Ferraris, but plagued by larger fuel consumption, reliability issues and bad luck... i hoped that by this year they will learn... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.159.213.182 (talk) 12:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Karthikeyan
Did Karthikeyan complete a lap in the race? If not, should he be included in the finishing table - or at least italicised with a note at the bottom... --Falcadore (talk) 13:32, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * According to SPEED's coverage, he did not complete any laps, his shoulder wouldn't let him start the race at all. 70.29.212.226 (talk) 13:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm including him at the moment simply because he was part of the driving team, but a note about him will certainly be included after I sleep and have a chance to write a race report. Note that two drivers for JLOC did not actually complete a lap either... ;)  IIIVIX  ( Talk ) 13:40, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Color coding in "Race results"
Does anybody like my modifications? I made them color-coded to identify which class is the car on. Maybe we should do this for future Le Mans-style race results, starting with the 2009 ALMS Northeast Grand Prix and the 2009 LMS 1000km of Algarve and try to re-fit them on the ones past (P900 = P1; P675 = P2; GTS = GT1; GT = GT2)... Big  top  19:46, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's been suggested before but was shot down for various reasons. I think one major one is that the number of classes at Le Mans has sometimes been quite large, sometimes dozens of classes or so.  I also think it could be done in a simpler fashion without the colors yet still understandable to a regular reader.  IIIVIX  ( Talk ) 19:52, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We'll need some kind of serious discussion about this... Big  top  20:44, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There are currently four classes at Le Mans, and I believe there will be only three next year (they are merging GT1 and GT2 because there are too few entrants in GT1 and they're almost all the same car). Furthermore, the ACO already uses color codes for the classes: red for LMP1, blue for LMP2, yellow for GT1 and green for GT2. Instead of coloring the entire row, though, we could create emblems for the four classes similar to those used for tyre manufacturers (e.g. Template:Michelin) DES (talk) 12:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Like this:  P1   P2   GT1   GT2  DES (talk) 13:10, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Except, as stated, those would be useless as soon as you start going only a few years back when it was LMP900, LMP675, LMGTS, and LMGT. The classes are clearly designated here, I don't see how the colors add anything informative that isn't already there.  IIIVIX  ( Talk ) 18:49, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * They're useful now, and for the last handful of years, and for at least a few more to come. DES (talk) 16:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The classes are already listed. Adding color is redundant, people can already figure out what class they are looking at.  IIIVIX  ( Talk ) 16:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I REALLY don't like it. Those colours are frankly overpowering. Colours should be used either in pastel shades, or just colouring the text. Used like that... frankly it's hideous and should be erased right now. Just bolding the text of the class winner is more than distinctive enough to set apart class winners. --Falcadore (talk) 22:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Lead Paragraph
From the lead paragraph it isn't clear what sport this is about. Not sure the best way to fix it, but I recommend someone who has worked on this article do so. meamemg (talk) 21:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikilinking all driver names
I think that all the drivers names in the results table should be wikilinked. De Mattia (talk) 08:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Drivers who we don't have articles for aren't linked. I don't see any reason to think that they all should be red links, especially since some of them might not be notable.  IIIVIX  ( Talk ) 08:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright. But still, I think someone is noteable if they have raced at that level. And also, if we red-link all the drivers, it will encourage people that read the article, to create those pages. De Mattia (talk) 08:12, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

What's the goal of the event?
So, since this isn't a standard sport - with all races the same - what's the goal? Most laps of (something?) in 24 hours? This isn't clear anywhere in the article; the article seems to read like you're already supposed to know this. 17:30, 15 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talldean (talk • contribs)
 * Not much different than other races. Instead of a set distance (500 miles, 76 laps) to be completed as quickly as possible, the limit is time (24 Hours) to complete as much distance as possible.  IIIVIX  ( Talk ) 20:12, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The 2009 NFL season article does not explain the rules of the American Football. It seems to read like you're already supposed to know this...  Seriously, there is a link to Grand Prix of Endurance aka 24 Hours of Le Mans in the very first sentence for those of you who have no clue.  Not sure what you mean by &ldquo;not a standard sport&rdquo; and &ldquo;not all races the same&rdquo;, though.  DES (talk) 12:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

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