Talk:2009 Collier Township shooting/Archive 1

Names
At least one online source has released the name of the murderer. I believe it is better to refrain from including the name until it is confirmed by multiple reliable sources. — Ched : ?  10:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * AP, ABC News, Bloomberg. Seems like it is well confirmed now; I will go ahead and add it. --TeaDrinker (talk) 14:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * yep, agreed — Ched : ?  16:47, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Website
I'm sure you guys know about his website by now, georgesodini.com/20090804.htm But what I found weird is if you goto that page, and click the "me" link at the top, an image of him appears. If you resize that window with the image, this text is below the image: "The south trailhead is located at the end of Lava Avenue, which has ample parking." Does anyone know what that could mean? 216.220.23.21 (talk) 15:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Internet Archive Wayback Machine is your friend. If you look at an earlier iteration of the website, you can see he seemed to be an avid cyclist several years ago.  I assume the caption under his picture was a remnant of a text from his old website.http://web.archive.org/web/20040326132125/http://georgesodini.com/   He also references another pseudonym of crazygeorge and a website www.crazygeorge.com (which is still up but not exciting unless you can figure out the password) he was good at self-diagnosis, apparently.Trailmixjustin (talk) 21:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

In regards to the website, the article currently states: "The gunman was Carnegie, PA. resident George Sodini, who was 48 years old. On a website registered in his name, Sodini described years of rejection by women and his struggles with alcoholism. The site also chronicles, over a nine-month period, his plans to carry out a shooting."

I don't see anywhere on his website where he chronicles his "plans" to carry out a shooting. I need to read it again to come up with something that goes here, but to me the whole thing just read like a sucicide note. The site also doesn't describe "struggles with alcoholism"... he mentions that he has been sober for 20 years and how he bought a bottle of vodka and some Jack Daniels. This hardly constitutes a chronicling of "struggles with alcohol".... Faethon Ghost (talk) 16:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe there aren't explicit plans for how to conduct the shooting, but he constantly refers to it as an "exit plan", so clearly, there's mentions of his contemplating it. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 20:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Seems as if his website is down. Here's the full text. (Lord Gøn (talk) 17:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC))

The web site was taken down at 11:15 am EDT, just after I has saved the "liveordie.htm" page but before I could return to the other pages such as 19600930.htm and save them. It appears that other folks got so obsessed with the "Date of Death" page, they didn't go back and get the other page using the displayed birth date. I didn't get a chance to read the "19600930.htm" page, since that's when I decided to start saving the pages locally, which is how I know exactly when it was taken down. Does anyone have the "Date of Birth" page? I'd be interested in reading it, since most other folks weren't :-) I can be reached at Lnkd.com?24 RobSimpson 23:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

We were looking for the date of birth page early this morning, we couldn't find it, I bet it was a red herring and never existed. We even looked on the internet way back machine :) I might be able to get a scene capture of the main website tho. A Cooke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.14.13 (talk) 00:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd bet the the "Date of Birth" page did previously exist, since the perpetrator would not have known the "20090804" date six months ago. I suspect the page was recently renamed from "19600930.htm" to "20090804.htm", when his decision switched from "live" to "die". And for anyone interested, the password to the other site, CrazyGeorge.com, is "crazyg". RobSimpson (talk) 15:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It was not removed at 11:15 AM. It is actually still available; just refresh the page multiple times and it will appear. Typing his date of birth does not lead to anything. Kaynbred (talk) 01:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the update - the site appears to be back and more reliable now. Too many visitors?! RobSimpson 01:34, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

For those who want to see even more stuff (Lord Gøn (talk) 01:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC))

Not sure if it is notable enough to mention, but in the "basement" video by Sodini, he mentions doing "forgiveness exercises as per [Hay?]. This seems likely to be Louise Hay, author of "You Can Heal Your Life" and "Forgiveness/Loving the Inner Child."  This, in addition to a book on dating younger women, and an article(?) on Office Politics shown in the "upstairs" video, may give insight into his mental state.  BTW, I have no source for the Hay attribution- it's just a guess.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.71.80 (talk) 17:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

All pages are now blank as of August 14, 2009, 03:00 GMT. The last time that I checked for activity was August 9, 2009, at which point the website was still available. Kaynbred (talk) 02:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal
Two articles about the same incident. These need to be merged into one article. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No question these should be merged. I'd recommend just going ahead and doing it. Worst case scenario is we get the title wrong, in which case it can be moved.  --TeaDrinker (talk) 15:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree the two articles should be merged. Per 1.) Naming conventions, 2.) Article history, and 3.) president (see 2009 Pittsburgh police shootings) I would suggest merging this article into 2009 Collier Township PA. Shooting though. — Ched :  ?  16:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Currently, it looks like the merger happened and the name was changed to "Collier Township Shooting of 2009". Shouldn't it be "2009 Collier Township shooting"?  Shooting shouldn't be capitalized, anyway.  Cliff smith  talk  16:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree; but, at the rate this is bouncing around - I'm just going to wait a few days until the fuss dies down. I'll try to clean up things in a few days. — Ched :  ?  17:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Title
The title doesn't really illistrate the incident. People do not know it has the Collier Township shooting they know it as the LA Fitness shooting, thus the name should be changed.--Golfj21 (talk) 02:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Totally agree! If only I knew how to do it Trailmixjustin (talk) 02:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 2009 LA Fitness shooting is the new title. The Homosexualist (talk) 05:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Nope, don't think so. Article title should reflect the location, we're not running an ad service here - it's an encyclopedia. See Naming conventions (events) — Ched :  ?  06:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The location does not reflect the common name used everywhere else for the event. The École Polytechnique massacre and Tacoma Mall shootings were not named for their cities. The Homosexualist (talk) 06:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Please read the guideline. — Ched : ?  06:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The guideline said nothing that would indicate a preference for naming an article after the town in which the shooting occurred over the building. The Homosexualist (talk) 06:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

If you can explain what part of:

 (excerpt from Naming conventions (events))  you don't understand, I'd be happy to attempt an explanation. — Ched : ?  07:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Where the incident happened.
 * What happened.


 * I think I do understand those points, and LA Fitness is where the incident happened, and a shooting is what happened. The Homosexualist (talk) 19:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Ahhh .. OK, now I think I understand the confusion. LA Fitness is actually a business... with over 150 buildings (which would mean over 150 locations in the United States and Canada - I think we can find something just a bit more "descriptive" for this article that would narrow down the location of the shooting.  If it were something unique, such as Mellon Arena, or Shea Stadium, then I might buy into that logic - but not when "LA Fitness" hardly describes any location whatsoever. — Ched :  ?  20:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The title should not include "LA Fitness", but rather the location of the incident. There are LA Fitness branches all over the country--the title should be more specific. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 06:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * However, LA Fitness Shooting already directs here, and most media refers to it as such. How about something like this? "The 2009 Collier Township shooting, also known as the LA Fitness Shooting, ..." I mean, as much as we want it to be specific, we also want to reflect how the public views the event. We're transcribing history here, not writing it. So I think while the title of the article should remain as is, we should include a "also known as" to reflect popular naming convention. --RabidMonkeysEatGrass 01:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Site name in screen capture
It might just be me, but having "A-List Singles" shown on the bookmark toolbar in the screen capture comes across as somewhat inappropriate. Perhaps a screen capture that doesn't show the browser's chrome or at least disables that toolbar would be more appropriate? --99.7.67.220 (talk) 03:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The screenshot is just unnecessary.Trailmixjustin (talk) 04:47, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The browser chrome is copyrighted by Apple, also. The Homosexualist (talk) 04:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know what kind of spam that was supposed to be, but I removed it. I'll upload a pic of the actual location in a day or two. — Ched :  ?  06:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That _was_ the actual location. It's just that everybody else was focusing on the "manifesto" page of the site and missing the "liveordie" part, which is significant in the extent to which this was planned ahead, that he was debating the "live or die" question for at least 6 months (I suspect the blog page was hidden behind the "Date of Birth" up until early August, since even the perpetrator would not have known the "20090804" date until recently) and how much it was intended that his "voice will be heard" in the way the page was hidden. If the only issue was the browser's "chrome", which there only because it happened to be between the address bar and the web page, wouldn't it have been easier to take a photo editor's smudge tool to that? (And if copyright is an issue, permission is hereby granted to edit irrelevant parts of any uploaded images.) RobSimpson (talk) 15:18, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm referring to a picture of the scene of the crime, I'll drive over in a day or two and get a pic. of the mall. (if I can get into the lot). — Ched : ?  20:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, yeah. The _actual_ location :-), sorry. Let me know if I can assist. I'm on the southern side of Bridgeville & have a Nikon 10 meg pixel camera. I still think the way the web site was set up was unique. RobSimpson (talk) 21:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure - anything you have would be great. I shoot with a Nikon D80, and uploaded a couple.  I don't claim to be a great photographer, so if you have work that improves the article - it would be a great addition.  I live in Oakdale, and am a member of the CERT team, if you want to get together - let me know. — Ched :  ?  10:46, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The pics that are in the article now are probably fine. I wouldn't want to replace them.  I work a short way from South Pointe; would have to let you know where offline, but there's probably a 50/50 chance you've heard of it.  I still think the way the web site was set up with the blog under "live", then more recently "die" was a significant part of this, so I put together an article to submit.  Sure, I'd be interested in getting together somewhere - do you ever go to Geek Night Out?  Or contact me if you want - my phone no is at Lnkd.com?24 72.77.92.89 (talk) 23:48, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I found another page
I ran a script that checked all dates from 1900 to 2020, and this page also exists: http://georgesodini.com/20090704.htm

Pretty useless, but whatever. 69.140.141.187 (talk) 23:26, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * My guess is that was a test to make sure the pages would display OK once the actual date was known. That it's exactly one month earlier just coincidence... 72.77.92.89 (talk) 01:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I wonder if anyone has gotten to the "darker side" page hidden behind http://home.comcast.net/~space777/crazyg/personal/security.htm - you have to know the "crazyg" password to get even that far. Unfortunately, that one's probably not an 8-digit date, more likely another one like "crazyg" or "snippers" (I already tried those two, of course, as well as "19600930"), so your script probably wouldn't find it. RobSimpson (talk) 01:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The password box on that link doesn't work (just look at the source code); however, there still could be a hidden page. --RabidMonkeysEatGrass 01:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The password box works fine - for example, if you put in "security", you get the "security.htm" page right back. You're right, though, there could be another hidden page.  I suspect it's something else prior to Nov 2008, possibly an earlier blog. RobSimpson (talk) 19:17, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/user/MOSB46PGH 69.140.141.187 (talk) 00:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Related events
There have already been a few issues on the related events section (currently called See also). There are two problems. First, See also sections need to be bare links with maybe a little bit more to explain why, but not a paragraph.

Second, as a recent RV said, not ever attack that targets a group needs to be included. In fact, I'd argue not every attack that targets women (1/2 the population) should be included either. In fact, other attacks don't need to be included at all, unless there's some direct or uncanny link between the two.

Two conclusions then: 1) All see also links need to be bare (with only the narrowest of exceptions), and 2) related attacks should not be included in the see also section. Shadowjams (talk) 06:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. WP:SEEALSO is the guideline for this.  I didn't remove entirely, but understand the guideline to be pointing to things like: mass murder, etc.  Perhaps link to the Pgh police shooting as well. — Ched :  ?  10:57, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

RFC - Article Name
OK. This article has been bounced around with different names for a couple days now. I'm going to open an RFC to resolve the issue. Personally, I think the current title: "2009 Collier Township shooting" is acceptable; but, if there is consensus to change it to something reflecting "Pittsburgh", or "PA", or some other title that the community prefers - then that's fine too. Guidelines that should be considered are:
 * Naming conventions
 * Naming conventions (events)

Ched Davis 11:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

How many hurt?
From the article:"The attack resulted in four deaths, including that of the perpetrator. Nine other people were injured."From elsewhere in the article:"Three women died and about 15 other people were wounded before he killed himself."Unless there’s some distinction I’m unaware of between “injured” and “wounded,” these can’t both be true. Capedia (talk) 21:04, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The 15 injured is wrong. This was the number initially reported and it has been corrected to nine in the newer reports. (Lord Gøn (talk) 00:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC))

his funeral?
did he have a funeral? are there living relatives? next of kin? Kingturtle (talk) 14:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

This is wikipedia
"These murders, like many other murders of women, including the individual murders of women in domestic violence cases and rape-murders, has produced little examination of the sexism and misogyny behind these crimes.[citation needed] Instead, there is a rush to assert these killings are the acts of lone crazed individuals[citation needed] rather than a reflection of the sexism[citation needed] that causes women to be paid less, be excluded from the clergy of many major religions, be fearful to be out late at night or walk in certain places, be grossly underrepresented in political life except at the lowest echelons.[citation needed]'"

This is wikipedia and such expressions are just out of place, it does not belong even to discuss page! Please post only dry facts and no opinions or criticisms or speeches! If you are angry or emotional do not, please, express it in wikipedia article!

Links to other massacres
An anon user inserted a section of text into the lead of this article, mentioning four other massacres where women were solely or predominantly targeted. I've linked three of these to their articles - the Montreal Massacre, the Jonesboro Massacre, and the Amish school shooting - but I'm not sure what the other, the 'Penn State killings', refers to. Could it be the Hetzel Union Building shooting? Only one person was killed there, and it doesn't seem that women were the targets. If someone knows what this refers to, please correct the link. Robofish (talk) 01:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Introduction needs improvement
The introduction contains the following. "This shooting was one of several massacres targeting women. Like the Ecole Polytechnique massacre, the Westside Middle School massacre, the killing of the Amish schoolgirls, and the Winnenden school shooting among others, females were targeted for death." While the contributor might be praised for apparently trying to raise awareness, my criticism is based on the premise that the contribution is not appropriately integrated into an encyclopedia article. Such language is inappropriate for the introduction. It is lengthy, repetitive, and problematic. The first problem is that it says "women were targeted" twice. This only needs to be said once in the introduction, and if mentioned again it should be in a separate section entitled "Motive." The list of crimes committed is also problematic because it suggests a connection that is not specifically strong, and it also suggests that mass shootings are an epidemic. While gun violence may be an epidemic, and while one mass shooting is too many, mass shootings actually are rare; in addition, the perpetrators of the crimes listed committed their crimes individually, not as part of a conspired series of crimes. Finally, what is concerning about the contribution is that it seems to be intended to induce an emotional or political response. What I would suggest is that a separate section be created in the article that has some details about the search for a motive or cause, and make it comprehensive. The contribution makes it seem that the cause of the crime has been definitely ascertained, and by listing crimes with similar victims in connection with the implied ascertation, it lumps all the crimes together as having a common cause. --Tvwatcher (talk) 16:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Racism
Currently there's a mention of Sodini's sexism, but not a mention of his racism which was also a factor in the motive for the shooting. Apparently, he was angry specifically at young white women for being apparently being more interested in black men than in him. Stonemason89 (talk) 03:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * As I recall his website hinted that he thought such interracial dating was a type of poetic justic for the slavery days in America. In my opinion his remark on that particular subject seemed more like innocuous observation than racism. Thinking critically however, I think if you're going to contemplate motive you should take his website statements with a grain of salt. Besides the easy conclusion such as that he was upset he couldn't get a date, who knows if that was his real problem. In addition, I don't think sexist would precisely describe the thrust of his website statemets. ---Tvwatcher (talk) 17:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow and references
So basically this guy went beserk and went on a murder spree because he couldn't get lucky with women? Wow. So sad all around. On the references, I've already been lectured about reliable sources. Is youtube such a source?PumpkinSky (talk) 14:36, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi PumpkinSky. Yea it was a pretty wild time.  I got the call (I volunteer on a local Emergency Response team, and you couldn't get within 5 miles of the place.).  Anyway, Youtube.com is not normally considered an acceptable source for a reference.  That's basically just because anyone can post almost anything they want there.  You can read about it at this page, and if you ever want to ask about a source, you can post a question at Reliable sources/Noticeboard.  Sorry if you've had an unpleasant experience with sources, it's often one of the most difficult things to agree on and understand here.  In newer and lower quality articles, you'll often see less resistance with citing sources, with the one exception being our living person's policy.  As the articles improve in quality, more folks proof-read and scrutinize them.  Cheers. — Ched :  ?  15:21, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That helps a lot. See my talk page too. PumpkinSky (talk) 18:30, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Update?
The article currently states (unsourced):


 * However, the estate may be instead given to Sodini's victims, as courts have ultimate decisions over estates. The university has said it has "no interest" in receiving Sodini's estate.

Anybody know if there's an update on this? —Tom Morris (talk) 13:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

change title to George Sodini?
Nobody knows where the "Collier Township" is. But everyone knows the name George Sodini. Please change the article's title. 93.219.145.176 (talk) 17:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

"An unloaded magazine"?
As opposed to buying a loaded magazine online? Because I hear those are very popular items for criminals to buy online. What difference does it make that three shooters happened to buy spare magazines from this company? A lot of people bought things from them; they were a huge online gun-accessory site. Were they supposed to have done a better job screening their customers before selling them something dangerous like spare magazines or holsters? This is typical of "significant facts" cooked up by clueless media types. "OMG, it turns out that 20% of mass shooters ordered ammunition on CheaperThanDirt.com at some point! A smoking gun!" I suppose the real point of stating these "facts" is so people can be outraged at how easy it is for mass shooters to buy spare magazines online. Nevermind if they were just ordinary civilians at the time, anyone could potentially be a mass shooter, therefore we ought to have full background checks for all magazine and ammunition sales, right? AnnaGoFast (talk) 10:46, 12 January 2018 (UTC)