Talk:2009 Giro d'Italia, Stage 1 to Stage 11/GA2

GA Review
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 * GA review (see here for criteria)

--maclean (talk) 01:15, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * See notes below.
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * Notes
 * General
 * Why only count the top 10 riders?
 * Consensus. Not only here but in other media. Most media will list either top 10 or absolutely everyone, and clearly that stretches the bounds of what's encyclopedic. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 03:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a lot of informal language and slightly awkward writing. Phrases like "first team to take the course", "donned the jersey", "in the eyes of the riders" should be writing more literally: "complete the course", "wear the jersey", "the opinion of the riders". Awkwardness comes from sentences like "At the end of the race's first week and beginning of its second were three hilly medium-mountain stages that took the Giro into, and then back out of, Austria." - trying to juggle too many parts, just keep it simple and clear.
 * Duly noted. I wrote virtually all of the prose in the Giro articles (which I'm sure is a biiiiiiggg shock), and I really do seem a journalist at heart. It helps to have other eyes on the article to pick things like that out. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 03:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Introduction"
 * "''These were the individual stages of the first half of the 2009 Giro d'Italia, with Stage 1 on 9 May and Stage 11 on 20 May.'" - What does "these" refer to?
 * The sections of the article? I dunno. I just always started stage profile pages that way. Obviously this article and others like it won't have an exact restatement of the article title, so what do you suggest? Just dive in with "The 2009 Giro d'Italia began with a team time trial....." ? Alex finds herself awake at night ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 03:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Lead section has suggestions. Answer "What is the subject?" and "Why is this subject notable?". The subject is Stages 1 to 11, so say that rather than "These". It is important because it is the 'first half of the 2009 Giro d'Italia'. The dates '9 May to 20 May' help define it. --maclean (talk) 06:16, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Stage 1
 * "as is recent tradition" - can this be replaced by a year, like "since 200x"?
 * It's actually really recent, as in 2008. Would be much better explicitly stated as that. This also goes for the ITT in Stage 21, on the other article. I thought when I first wrote this that it went back a little longer, and never, for whatever reason, revised it. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 03:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "The 20.5 km (12.7 mi) ride over a perfectly flat course in Venice awarded the first pink jersey.[1]" - who awarded the pink jersey?
 * Well, I suppose RCS. Maybe decided who would wear the first pink jersey would be better. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 03:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "their TTT victory" - what does TTT mean?
 * Team time trial, as wikilinked at least twice. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 03:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Mark Cavendish donned the first pink jersey; he was also awarded the white jersey." - what does the pink jersey represent? the white jersey?
 * GC, youth classification. Accessibility and such. Will revise.
 * Thanks so much for reviewing. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 03:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Please respond to the above notes. The article is generally good. It could be expanded in areas describing the courses and other more interesting incidents. The writing is generally clear but could be improved. maclean (talk) 06:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Stage 2"
 * "almost perfectly flat, with only a tiny climb near the end to award the first green jersey." - "perfectly" and "tiny" seem like exaggerations. This is the first instance of "green jersey", please say what it represents (why it is important).
 * "Stage 5"
 * "It was considered after the stage that..." - avoid the passive voice: say who considered this.
 * Just name the source in the prose? That seems really awkward. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 00:47, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Naming the source in the prose is something I typically do only if I'm quoting them or attributing a specific opinion they hold. In these instances here naming the source in the prose would probably be the easiest way to deal with it — it is just a guess by one guy with nothing factual backing up. An alternative can be to make it more factual, rather than opinionated — were these the top six riders at this point? was there any criteria this guy used other than gut feeling? Ultimately, I find the passive voice more awkward. The guidelines Words to avoid and Avoid weasel words in part help explain the thrust behind avoiding the passive voice. --maclean (talk) 00:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Tan's reasoning was that these were the top six finishing riders, discounting Astana support rider Chris Horner, on the stage. I just can't get past thinking of explicitly naming one source as the monolithic point of view on anything as basically advertising for them. Part of the solution to that is to incorporate other sources, which I will. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 05:17, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This is one of those "verifiability, not truth" things. You're telling me the truth is that those 6 riders were considered the favorites. What is verifible (in the provided reference) is that Tan, on behalf of that organization, considered them the favourites. Tan cannot speak for the general public or other organizations. That is what is so problematic with the passive voice: it falsley purports to speak for the general community. I'd much rather you made the sentence factual, rather than opinionated. Why not just say "Following Stage 5 xxxx were the top 6 (7?) riders." and leave the 'they were considered favorites' out? maclean (talk) 23:54, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well the interesting thing is they weren't the top six. Michael Rogers was higher than a few of them on GC after the stage. What I'm going to do is pull in several more sources/opinions (it'll take me about a day to do it), and I guess explicitly name them like you say, but I still find that very strange. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 00:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC) I lost all my progress! I'll try again tonight.  Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 02:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Does the current revision work? I don't explicitly name the source in the prose (that just doesn't sit well with me), but I do state that it is just one report's finding, and the citation right afterward links to whose opinion it is. I will do similarly with any other remaining sentences like this. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 07:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that works. --maclean (talk) 01:02, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Stage 6"
 * "perfectly flat" - this is an exaggeration - just say flat.
 * "The day's breakaway numbered five,..." - please clarify what this means.
 * There were five riders in the breakaway. I try to use different words sometimes to say the same thing (almost every stage will have a breakaway that survives for a significant amount of time).
 * "Stage 7"
 * "It was seen..." - avoid the passive voice, use the active voice: "xx saw..."
 * Again...just name the source in the prose?
 * See above --maclean (talk) 00:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Can the Astana jersey part be expanded a bit?
 * Sure. It's explained in other articles, but that doesn't help this one.
 * "Stage 8"
 * Do you know what made Horrillo crash so badly?
 * No. I don't even think Horrillo knows. Sources describing his accident have referred to it as occurring for "unknown reasons," which makes the rider protest the next day all the more interesting.
 * "perfectly flat" - exaggeration
 * "cyclamen jersey" - what is 'cyclamen'? does that mean 'pink'?
 * It's the points jersey. Unlike pink, green, and white, there's no agreed-upon English version of maglia ciclamino, the Italian name for the points jersey. Purple jersey, violet jersey, mauve jersey, cyclamen jersey, they've all been used. Cyclamen is a flower, and it's probably the proximate namesake of the jersey, but obviously "purple" or "violet" would be much clearer.
 * Conclusion
 * Thanks for reviewing. Alex finds herself awake at night  ( Talk ·  What keeps her up ) 00:47, 11 October 2009 (UTC)