Talk:2009 Greek legislative election

Turkish minority or Muslim minority
I don't want to make an ideological statement over the denomination, the fact is that they are clearly Turks, and not just Muslims. The intra-Greek-Turkish debate is not relevant here as there are, as far as I know (maybe I'm mistaken), no Pomak or Muslim Roma candidates. But I won't make a fuss over the title of the section, all elements therein are properly sourced anyway. --Pylambert (talk) 23:28, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Just check the article about minorities in Greece. In Greece there is a Muslin minority divided in subgroups which are not officially minorities. -- Magioladitis (talk) 23:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This is just the sort of discussion I wanted to avoid: we don't have here on wikipedia to adopt the official terminology of the Greek and Turkish "minorityphobic" States, "minority" is not just a legal/official term, it is also a sociopolitical reality. But the title "Western Thrace Turks candidates" is OK for me, so I guess the discussion is closed. I couldn't find the PASOK Turkish candidates on their website. --Pylambert (talk) 01:11, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Why do we even need the section? I have never seen such sections in other countries' elections' pages... And, Pylambert, you say you're from Belgium and active in the francophone wikipedia. So, where are the relevant minorities sections for the French and Belgian elections? Or, is it that the francophone and flemish communities are minorities? Why is it every time that we get people noting the minorities in Greece and not in their own countries? Are the minorities' candidates that notable? More notable than the other ones? When Europe and the world watched immigrants from Africa setting the streets of Paris on fire, they were not a minority? Are there no minority candidates in France or Belgium? Are there no people of African origin and French or Belgian nationality running in the respective elections? Shouldn't the world know? Are only the "Turkish candidates in Western Thrace" the only notable minority candidates in Europe? And, since they even run on major party lists, how exactly are they more notable than the other candidates of these parties? And, why exactly is this "minority" the only notable one? Are there no Roma candidates? I'm oddly enough expecting you to tell me how you only wanted to contribute to this article and how i can write about minorities in belgian or french elections myself... But, damn it, the "ethnic Macedonians" don't run in these elections... what a shame, another lost chance to inform the world about minority candidates in Greece... Heracletus (talk) 00:37, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I also added in 2008 a section Ethnic pluralism in the article French municipal elections, 2008 (and in the French wikipedia articles for various elections as I am a searcher on these matters). And I wrote as well several articles related to minority electoral participation in several European countries, including of Jewish parties during the interwar period. Something else: I particularly despise filthy nationalists, be they Greek, Turkish, Belgian or French. So long. --Pylambert (talk) 00:50, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the term "Ethnic Pluralism" is quite different from focusing to a certain unrecognized minority's candidates. You're free to despise anyone you wish, but, you added an ethnic pluralism section in the municipal elections in France and an ethnic "minority" candidates' one in Greece. It's hardly the same thing. In the French article, you discussed incumbent and newly-elected mayors and candidates and here you refer to each party's "minority" candidates and even their place in the party's list. You don't refer to one or two incumbent "minority" candidates or the ones that will be elected tomorrow. You refer to each and every major party candidate. And, you don't refer to something as religious pluralism, but to Western Thrace Turkish minority specifically. You don't even refer to any other minorities, like the Roma, or anyone. Not to mention that these people and their families reside in Greek territory since WW1 and also are Greek citizens (how else could they be candidates in our national elections?). The differences between the two sections are obvious. You may openly call me a nationalist, but I haven't yet accused you of promoting the jewish and muslim parties. I just noted that having a section referring to each and every "minority" candidate and his/her position in the list of the major party that supports him or her is highly biased. What about the other candidates? Why are these candidates so notable and the others are not? Heracletus (talk) 14:30, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Poor Pylambert is so ignorant, s/he is taking care to point out at which position (e.g. "4th out of 5"!) each candidate is! S/he is imagining that this is somehow important. As anyone familiar with Greek law knows, constituency lists are alphabetical, and each voter selects the candidate of their choice. His/her efforts to promote the interests of minorities are otherwise commendable, even if limited to Asian and African minorities, as a mere glance at her/his contributions will reveal. An obsession that obviously cries out for some Freud. ;-)
 * May I say that your comment about a candidate's place in the elections' ballot is exactly true (apart from the statewide list that is not voted upon). And, Pylambert just moved the section somewhere more friendly.... May I suggest those candidates change their surnames to Aaaa-something, to be 1st on the party list in their respective regions next time. Also, the number of candidates in a certain region is regulated by law, relating to how many MPs this region elects. So, I guess, if you are from some unrecognized ethnic minority named Aaaa-something in the second electoral region of Athens and a major party candidate, you must be really special and notable, being 1st out of 46 in your party list in that region. What an achievement! But, if your party leader runs in that region, too, you may be 2nd, but still!!! Heracletus (talk) 03:56, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hahahahaha, imagine if there was some tribe somewhere named "Aaaaaaa". They would automatically place first on the ballots and become Pylambert's pet "oppressed people".  Not to mention that this whole alphabet thing is another piece of evidence for Western cultural imperialism.  And why are alphabets recognized anyway????  Are they somehow superior to other writing systems?  It must be some dastardly "White Man" plot to degrade unwritten oral traditions and languages, and subjugate the peoples who use them.  :-)))

I did some research in mass media. None is really discussing the elections in a specific area of Greece. The section is just original research. Thus, I removed it. -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, stay among yourselves, nationalist bastards. --Pylambert (talk) 20:03, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Clearly, the existence of official Minority MPs is of great importance and the exclusion of any discussion is POV. THe section should be reinserted, regardless of Greek nationalist opinion. In particular, the ignorant comments by some Greeks above (comparing this with other European countries' minority groups) is just invalid. The Minority of Greece is established by the Lausanne Treaty and Greece goes on and on about how this is so important. Well, the importance extends to elections too. It is irrelevant whether the Greek nationalist media discuss the matter or not. Xenos2008 (talk) 00:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you have any (non-Greek) media discussing about that? -- Magioladitis (talk)


 * Dear Xene, I don't think that what was included in this article was exactly information put there after a consensus was reached. And, I think discussion belongs here, not in the article itself. I also don't think there were official "minority" candidates. I don't see any ignorant comments, apart from Pylambert's comments on the position of candidates in a party list, which had been included in the article. I'm happy to be Greek, but I reserve the right to call myself nationalist or not, for myself, thanks all the same.The Lausanne treaty, which Turkey has failed for a pretty long period to respect, talks of a religious minority, not an ethnic one, and certainly not of an only Turkish one. Not all the Greek media is what you call "nationalist", and that goes for foreign media, too. You should read these articles: Greek turkish relations, Istanbul Pogrom and Lausanne Treaty, to see why the Greek media refer to the Lausanne treaty so much... :D Also, please, after you read these articles, refrain from editing them into a state you think is more NPOV, before discussing your proposed changes. Heracletus (talk) 14:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)Thank you, I know more about these than you do. It doesnt alter what I said: candidates from the official MInority and representing Thraki are an important part of Greek elections. Their non-appearance in media and this article shows how Greeks ignore ethnic minority issues. Xenos2008 (talk) 22:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I fail to see what the Lausanne Treaty has to do with an ethnic minority, Xenos. The lausanne treaty talks about a religious minority, please get your facts straight Xenos2008 and refrain from further unjust characterizations.Moumouza (talk) 15:44, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The religious Minority is also of different ethnicity, as you know perfectly well. We are tired of Greeks and your stupid fucking racist mentality. so get your facts straight too. Arrogant asshole. Xenos2008 (talk) 22:31, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why do you need to use insults? You should know that being insulting shows insecurity and does not help in developing a healthy conversation. Furthermore, me and Heracletus answered to your use of the Lausanne Treaty as an argument for the existence of ethnic minority candidates in the legislative elections of 2009. I mean, you HAVE to have references...Moumouza (talk) 10:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The section was duly referenced:


 * 1) ^ Chris Loutradis, Turkish candidate stirs debate in Greek polls, Hürriyet Daily News, September 22, 2009, accessed on September 24, 2009
 * 2) ^ Harassment of Aysel Zeybek and The Responses, The Balkan Human Rights Web Pages, accessed on September 24, 2009
 * 3) ^ (Turkish) Hasan Hacı, PASOK, Türk milletvekili adaylarını, Rodop Rüzgârı, September 10, 2009, accessed on September 25, 2009
 * 4) ^ a b Hasan Haci, Turkish minority vote worth its weight in gold in Greek elections, Today's Zaman, October 3, 2009
 * 5) ^ (Turkish) Yunanistan'da Türk oyları için bedava uçak ve otobüs seferleri, Cihan News Agency, September 25, 2009
 * But it doesn't matter as there are no "Turks" in Greece, only "Muslims", and no "Kurds" in Turkey, only "Mountain Turks"... --Pylambert (talk) 19:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say that they are Turks. I said "different ethnicity"; as the Greek Supreme Court also calls them -- "Ellhnes thn ethnikotita". If you don't know Greek citizenship law, you should not comment on these things. Xenos2008 (talk) 20:19, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You all don't seem able to go further than the legal aspect of this matter. Ethnicity is a sociological and political concept, not a legal one. Most "Greek muslim" politicians are Turks, even if a handful consider themselves as Pomaks (e.g. Gulbeyaz Karahasan). Anyway, your ignorance is so deep I won't argue with you (collective "you"). --Pylambert (talk) 20:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Pylambert: I agree completely. But you will get nowhere with the Greeks on that. My starting point is that even by their own Supreme Court judgements, they are talking crap. The issue of ethnicity is caught up in self-identification which the Greeks deny to people. There is extensive discussion from the Council of Europe on this issue; recently the Greek state admitted (for the first time) that there are Slav Greeks in northern Greece. The ethnicity of the Minority in Thraki is complex, largely because Turkey has tried to take over the interests of the whole Minority (of which about one third is Turkish), and have largely succeeded because of extreme mismanagement by the Greek authorities. So, the legal conception is the only clear thing, at this time. Sadly. Xenos2008 (talk) 22:47, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

why this title?
The elections were parliamentary elections. In my whole life I have never heard of legislative elections: is this something WP has dreamed up? And there is no explanation in the whole of the article about what a legislative election is supposed to be! Xenos2008 (talk) 00:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Legislative elections" are elections to elect a legislature. I think wikipedia uses this term for parliamentary elections, too, so as to avoid using more specific terms for elections in countries where there is no parliament or the legislature elected cannot be considered a parliament. Thus, the suggestion for a more specific term belongs to some administrator's or policy committee's page. Heracletus (talk) 14:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * A parliament is a type of legislature. So a parliamentary election is a legislative election. It's just a matter of preference. Moumouza (talk) 17:42, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, the fact that no political science course in any university or any academic text uses this terminology doesn't worry you? You think WP can invent terminology? That's called original research and is banned. Xenos2008 (talk) 22:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, you should get your facts straight before posting. Just try and search google for "Legislative Election, Harvard" to see how many papers have been published by the university of Harvard about this term which you insist it's a WP invention.Moumouza (talk) 10:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Very few, and they are all for US state legislatures, which is the correct terminology for them anyway. For elections to parliaments, they are ALWAYS called parliamentary elections. End of discussion.Xenos2008 (talk) 12:40, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Right, i am so amazed by the abundance of your arguments. "End of discussion"!! And, by the way, didnt know that Russia, Cameroon and Indonesia (just some examples i found) are US states!Moumouza (talk) 15:29, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The fact that you found mention of some malakies on the internet (relating to countries that barely count as democracies) means nothing. The standard literature calls parliamentary elections that, not legislative elections. Apart from anything else, legislative is an adjective referring to legislation and not to the legislature... it is complete bullshit to use the word, other than for US states (which don't seem to have another word). Xenos2008 (talk) 20:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry but you seem too prejudiced on these matters, and you lack the ability to participate in a civilized conversation. You present no proof for your arguments, and you insist on calling names on others and critisizing their arguments (which unfortunately for you, they justify completely by presenting facts). What you do is pretty simple: you present a statement, with no facts supporting it, and insist that it is true just because YOU believe it is. Again i am sorry, but it is not possible to have a conversation with you. Enjoy your ignorance. Moumouza (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I suppose the idea that I actually know what I am talking about doesn't bother you. I don't need to cite evidence when I spent 15 years teaching political science in universities. Since when do Greeks on WP bother with evidence anyway? The Greek nationalism and biases here are appalling, and nothing to do with the published literature.Xenos2008 (talk) 22:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Infobox
Why are only three of the five parliamentary parties included in the infobox? It is possible add two more parties, so why not do it? -Rrius (talk) 01:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. These infoboxes are big, focus only in three parties and in fact in their leaders, not the parties. In Grece we don|t have presidential elections. -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not reviving this conversation; I am informing everyone that I'm just going to do what Rrius said. Lockesdonkey (talk) 15:54, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

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