Talk:2009 Harmony Gold mine deaths

"illegal miners" / "illegal mining"
What is the meaning of "illegal" as used in this article? Is it that the miners entered South Africa illegally, or that they were trespassers and thiefs? If so, what is the background to the story: why would so many people be engaged in this illegal and highly dangerous work? If 300 people were arrested for illegal mining in the area, who was buying the products? There must be more to the story.


 * illegal in this context means miners who are trespassers. Mine Pirates! :-) -- 217.207.205.130 (talk) 11:32, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Then "trespassers" would be correct usage, not "illegal workers" and "illegal miners". But there's more to this story, there always has been...  Hilar leo  Hey, L.E.O. 11:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Recently we had reports of illegal diamond mining elsewhere in Africa, by children who had been recruited to work makeshift, unsafe mines for minimal pay and often lost their lives when the mineshafts collapsed. Apparently, no one would acknowledge responsibility for the damage inflicted by a highly profitable business. No labor standards were in effect. These children, also, were labelled as criminals, but the story didn't wash. Fconaway (talk) 03:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Can people please clarify on the article why the mining is illegal, and all that stuff. its a pretty weak article atm. IAmTheCoinMan (talk) 21:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, see the comments above. Harmony claimed the dead were members of an illegal mining syndicate they termed Zama-Zamas.  The article does not begin to explain why so many people are engaged in this illegal and highly dangerous work, how the syndicates work, or why both Harmony and the government disclaim responsibility.  There's much more to this story. Fconaway (talk) 01:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * More than one person has noticed now that this use of "illegal" is POV and political. The legality of extractive operations is fluid world-wide. Practices are tolerated according to corporate profits or not by the democratic control of toxic techniques. We see this throughout 3rd worlds but life is most notoriously cheap in Africa mining industries. Corporations have historically been shown to label marginal operations as conveniently 'illegal' where they don't want to be entangled with liabilities; yet without regulatory oversight (gradually eroding in corporate USA) these same businesses can retain profit participation in marginal operations- as well as secure a steady labor force thru "market forces" including outright slavery and "syndicates" which explit workers' basic needs. Mining syndicates can use marginal operations as training for inexperienced, under-aged workers, selecting the most productive for official recognition- "hiring" or "becoming legal".


 * A more NPOV terminology is economic not political in its basis. Terms such as 'employed', 'company', 'corporate', or 'Harmony' miners (where 'Harmony' is the name of one mining corporation) are appropriately used, but the economically marginalized 'unemployed' denigrates un-affiliated, 'independent', alternative workers. Plus we already have at least one historical term familiar in the USA- 'wildcatters' or wildcats', a term which even evokes dignity for independent mineral extraction work. WP was built to fight such corporate/political slant in the mass media. Please, for a better Wikipedia - Every Reader/Editor should immediately edit all NPOV "Public relations (PR)" slant wherever found. You have WP's permission. 8-P  Hilar leo  Hey, L.E.O. 13:24, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * These guys aren't employed by Harmony, and Harmony doesn't want them there. They're criminals exploiting the resources someone else owns, who doesn't want them employed. They died doing it though, which is where the story is. But the way the article is written makes Harmony look like the bad guys, which I'm not all that comfortable with - to put Harmony at blame, especially in this kind of article isn't fair - their security staff, earning a normal living wage in SA, were corrupt. We shouldn't let Wikipedia become a preaching ground against business interests, or a 'place to expose' anything - that's not the kind of forum we're part of.

I don't know what we should call them, but I think it should reflect that they are the pirates of the mines. The article's Responsibility section should be more ambiguous and less pointed towards Harmony (perhaps it should also be merged with Govt Response?) and reflect the complexity of the situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.203.150.57 (talk) 18:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Fifth or Sixth?
According to the article on Harmony Gold, it is the sixth largest company in the world. Which is correct? Caeruleancentaur (talk) 12:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Minor Edit
I edited 'fortnight' in the article to '14 days'. Many readers may not know what 'fortnight' means. 216.166.234.203 (talk) 20:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you consult some survey? But you include no links. Are you on a dictionary usage committee?- a dictionary w/o 'fortnight'?? Or is this individual opinion? b/c ...  Hilar leo  Hey, L.E.O. 12:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * who doesn't know what fortnight means? IAmTheCoinMan (talk) 21:37, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

WP knows: Fortnight. See?- It's been a WP word all along. It's not at all uncommon world-wide (which the internet is now). Sure *some* people may not know or understand what the "cricket wicket" is or how to play. So do you end the game? I think maybe some Anglophone countries are better trained to react, censor & obey than to read or think. But do we ban them from dialog? Maybe better to make the link than to Bowdlerize. b/c WP's all about Education now. WP says: Look it up in my Dictionary. Or maybe you prefer to use the Simple English Wikipedia. No need 2worry about what maybe don't know- me know everything; even non-English. I in   *Internets*.  Hilar leo  Hey, L.E.O. 14:44, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

occult phenomena
See past descriptions of 'oracle bead chronicle'. It is entirely possible that some mines are more hazardous than others and will be approached only among illegals 'sent' into the region, one reason being that other-species linkages extend from a tiny mucousal artifact within which can be viewed historical images of the gems/mineral locations dating back centuries. The same type of occult historical image, contained within a North American oracle-bead chronicle, enabled the discovery of ancestral 'Lucy' remains yet intact in continental Africa. The Three Gorges region in China is also shown as a preserved historical image within the tiny oracle-bead artifact, and its alteration has disrupted bead-influenced linkages planetwide. beadtot66.217.68.79 (talk) 01:24, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yow sistah brudder! What you got into?  Hilar leo  Hey, L.E.O. 11:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Title
I don't think this is a good choice of title as mine deaths are not uncommon in South Africa and it is unlikely these were the first of 2009 or will be the last. http://www.icem.org/en/78-ICEM-InBrief/3186-South-Africa-Mine-Deaths-Continue-to-Rise gives a figure of 160 deaths for the year 2007. This article doesn't seem to be a general one about mining deaths in SA in 2009 so a more specific name would be appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Booshank (talk • contribs) 20:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Moved from 2009 South African mine deaths to 2009 Harmony Gold mine deaths. -- can  dle &bull; wicke  23:29, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Good Analysis of Illegal Miners
News24 - Who benefits from illegal mining? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Firefishy (talk • contribs) 16:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

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