Talk:2009 Lakewood shooting

Parkland, Lakewood?
The current text say the shooting took place in Lakewood, WA, but some sources seem to indicate it was in Parkland (a cdp just outside of Lakewood). Any definitive source to clarify? --TeaDrinker (talk) 23:48, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It sounds like the Lakewoood officers were just two blocks outside their jurisdiction (to the East; I guess in Parkland). I'm looking at the sources. Dawnseeker2000   23:54, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This news story says the location sits between the two areas of Lakewood and Parkland. Dawnseeker2000   23:57, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Pierce County Assessor's office map shows FORZA COFFEE parcel in (the Parkland neighborhood) of Pierce County .  (I am from the area also.)  The gray area on the map is McChord Air Force base.  Maybe the best wording would be to say "in Parkland, near the Lakewood border".Blue cannonball splash (talk) 04:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Good find. I cleaned up the information somewhat. I also removed the note saying it was a subburb of Seattle since they are more than forty miles apart.  It could be called a subburb of Tacoma (which is really a city in its own right), but that is less recognizable.  The link to Lakewood should be sufficient geographical information.  --TeaDrinker (talk) 05:17, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I would also say Burb of Tacoma, as residents of that area, have Tacoma as their mailing address Yearsago (talk) 14:47, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The Location is in unincorporated Pierce County, It sits in Parkland, which is right next to Lakewood Yearsago (talk) 19:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Merge
This ought to be merged to 2009 Washington Shootings. The two crimes do have something to do with each other: They're both premeditated murders of police officers in the Seattle Washington area. Having a special separate article for this one makes no sense, especially considering its current length. &lt;&gt;Multi‑Xfer&lt;&gt; (talk) 23:58, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about that. This article will surely develop further. The shooting is merely hours old so we're definitely going to be exposed to new information and further sources. There are items that both shootings have in common, but lets wait on fulfilling any merge plan. Dawnseeker2000   00:16, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

That could be creating your own theories. Maybe later, but not now. But you could create a category, that's permitted.
 * I have gone ahead and reverted Multixfer's page move and removed reference to this event in the Murder of Timothy Brenton. I tend to think the connection constitutes original research at this point.  Perhaps a later investigation will indicate differently.  --TeaDrinker (talk) 02:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Disagree with the idea to merge, as this will have further implications regarding Clemency from Huckabee Yearsago (talk) 19:09, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Not yet. Let the story develop for a while.  Chadlupkes (talk) 19:23, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, let it develop, HOWEVER, I do propose a title change more appropriate to indicate the date, year, or location to differentiate it from (god forbid) future shootings. But let's wait a bit longer.--Hourick (talk) 20:16, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This is completely separate to the Timothy Brenton case - different city, victims and perpetrator. That is why the articles should remain separate. Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 01:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Notable and worldwide coverage
proof Goldamania (talk) 01:41, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Worldwide press has reported this

🇨🇦 Canada http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/four-tacoma-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop/article1381850/

🇬🇧 United Kingdom http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8385421.stm

🇺🇸 United States http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/29/washington.police.shooting/index.html

🇦🇺 Australia http://www.watoday.com.au/world/four-police-officers-shot-dead-in-coffee-shop-ambush-20091130-jzdz.html?autostart=1

🇨🇿 Czech Republic http://www.newstin.com/tag/us/159811532

Ethnicity
Why is the suspect described here as an "African-American", when the source describes him as a "black man"? I changed the text but it's been reverted. There's no indication in the article that he's of African heritage or even an American. 79.72.168.249 (talk) 19:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * He's American, born in Marianna, Arkansas. "Black" and "African American" are generally used interchangeably; the latter is more accurate.Parkwells (talk) 21:24, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Reasons for suspicion?
Are there any reasons why Maurice Clemmons is "the suspect"?

The article needs sources references about *who* suspects him and *why*. I can't find any on google news. Not sure where else to look. RadicalHarmony (talk) 19:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * There is a Murder Warrant that has been issued for Clemmons, but I can't seem to link the article (Its on Seattle Times).

CBS has a video interview (Source) that pins him as there prime suspect for now, a statement was made that he is no longer believed to be a person of interest in the case, and is being charged as a suspect of murder. Warrants have been issued for his arrest in the connection of the four murders (still looking for those, but I don't believe they are publicly available yet). Dbrown1986 (talk) 22:57, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Move due to disambiguous place name "Lakewood"
I suggest moving this page to Lakewood, Washington police officer shooting. The dab page Lakewood shows there are several notable places named "Lakewood" in the U.S. alone, including large suburbs of Cleveland and Los Angeles. Thoughts? KuyaBriBri Talk 22:53, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The only justification I can think of for keeping the page here is if the media dubs this the "Lakewood police officer shooting", just like the "Columbine High School massacre" need not specify that it is Columbine High School, Jefferson County, Colorado. 98.24.123.156 (talk) 01:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Lakewood_police_officer_shooting
I'm not sure the tiny bit of text regarding Twitter is good for this article. Dawnseeker2000  02:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, besides offering an insight into what the community is doing, not really pertaining to this event. Leonnatus (talk) 05:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Listing suspect as a death
I followed the example of Newhall massacre, North Hollywood shootout, 2009 shooting of Oakland police officers, and Columbine High School massacre, all of which list the gunman/men with the fatalities. Of these three, the Newhall case was the most similar in that the suspect got away from the scene and was holed up in a house for several hours after the initial shooting before taking his own life. KuyaBriBri Talk 15:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Seconded. I believe that the sidebar is misleading, since the suspect/shooter, unfortunately, was not killed during the incident but rather in a separate incident. Maybe a "Suspect Status" row could be added to the sidebar? - Gwopy 21:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gwopy (talk • contribs)

Names of those who helped Maurice Clemmons
Multiple news articles are starting to come out about the people who helped Maurice Clemmons facing additional charges. Such as Darcus D. Allen, his alleged getaway driver; Eddie Lee Davis and Douglas Edward Davis, two brothers who helped him; Ricky Hinton, Clemmons' half-brother who helped him; and more. A few of those sources are here, here, here and more. I've been doing a lot of work on the Maurice Clemmons article, but I think it's important for that article to focus on Clemmons himself and most of the shooting information to belong here. IMO, that means details like the manhunt and the arrests of those who aided and abetted Clemmons should probably go here instead of the Clemmons side. Anyone agree? Disagree? —  Hunter  Kahn  ( c )  16:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Clemmons article should focus on his story (e.g., his prior history in Arkansas and Washington) and a brief summary of this article should be included as well with a hatnote over that section pointing to this article. This article should fous on the shooting, manhunt, Clemmons' death, any other events directly related to the shooting (e.g., remarks Clemmons made prior) and the prosecution of those who aided and abetted him. A brief summary of the Clemmons article should go on this article with a hatnote pointing to his stand-alone article.
 * I would be careful in using the names of the individuals prosecuted for aiding and abetting, as WP:BLPNAME states that the presumption is against including the names of people not notable enough for their own article because they are merely associated with notable individuals, even if they are named in RS. KuyaBriBri Talk 17:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with what you're saying here. As far as the names are concerned, I think at this point it's certainly fair to name Darcus Allen, at the very least. Allen was Clemmons' alleged getaway driver, was his former prison roommate, and was previously convicted of murdering two people himself. As far as the other individuals, I guess we'll see as this plays out more... —  Hunter  Kahn  ( c )  17:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Political section
I haven't worked on this yet, but Governor Gregoire's statement and ultimatum to Arkansas is becoming another bit of political fallout. It is another facet of this article to expand upon. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Relevant?
Seeking other opinions as to whether this addition is relevant to the article or not? —  Hunter  Kahn  ( c )  16:58, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The shooting of two Pierce county deputies on December 21, 2009, does not seem to fit into the article about the Lakewood police shooting in that context. However, the context of multiple unconnected shootings in a short period of time, also including the Murder of Timothy Brenton, is relevant.  Lets try to work up a section about the local police history occurring around the Lakewood police shooting. - Michael J Swassing (talk) 17:39, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I put it there... it's so just unusual for so many shootings to happen in a certain area that involve police. I think it may need to be reworded but not sure about that... Cyanidethistles (talk) 18:20, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that the rash of shootings are relevant to each other, even though they are unrelated crimes. It is a difficult matter to figure out how to word that within each article, and link the articles together.  Keep at it, you are doing a fine job.  It is more a matter of making sense of the randomness and then organizing it in the articles which is really quite a challenge. - Michael J Swassing (talk) 21:38, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No disrespect intended in raising the question, Cyanidethistles. I think the info could play a part in the article, I just didn't think the original context was necessarily the best way to go about it. I agreed with Michael J Swassing's suggestion to work on a section about local police history occurring around the Lakewood shooting... —  Hunter  Kahn  ( c )  00:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

"The ... sheriff named Clemmons ..."
It's about the sheriff accusing Clemmons, but it sounds more like "Sheriff Clemmons" for a moment. If you replace "named" with "temporarily suspended Officer", this article would be hilarious. Maybe this should be phrased differently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.21.25.147 (talk) 11:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed. In the future why not be bold? &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 14:31, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Potential source article
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2014155225_clemmons08m.html this article in the Seattle Times archive may be useful source material here or in the Maurice Clemmons article. It details the timeline from a few hours before the attack. SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 19:20, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Darcus Allen--Retrial
It should be noted that Darcus Allen's conviction was overturned by the Washington Supreme Court and he's going to be retried... http://www.thenewstribune.com/2015/01/15/3589674/washington-supreme-court-orders.html 173.250.132.231 (talk) 17:36, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Requested move 6 July 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: ✅ moved to the amended proposal (page mover closure)  Dr Strauss   talk   13:25, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

2009 shooting of Lakewood, Washington, police officers → 2009 shooting of Lakewood Washington police officers – While the commas in the title may be grammatically correct they break links to this wikipedia page 24.19.95.215 (talk) 19:10, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:15, 6 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Listed for discussion by &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:15, 6 July 2017 (UTC). This is contested:
 * Just because they break links is not a valid reason to move an article. If links really are breaking, then, well, redirects exist for a reason, you know. Sky Warrior  19:24, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Move to 2009 Lakewood shooting. I agree that the current title is clunky and awkward, but removing the commas doesn't help. Instead I think we should move to this much shorter title, which is WP:CONCISE and also WP:PRECISE, since there are no other Lakewood shootings in that year, and that title is a redirect to the current one. WP:USPLACE requires us to include state names in settlements, but it makes no such requirement for other articles where they are unambiguous, (and it actually explicitly allows state names to be omitted in the case of metropolitan areas). &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:21, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed with comment above, move to 2009 Lakewood shooting. 2601:8C:4001:DCB9:D048:F3B0:22C3:4EEB (talk) 13:52, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Move to 2009 Lakewood shooting. Ticks all the boxes. I note that the article has already been moved several times, but never after discussion and never to this title, despite a redirect from this title having existed since 2009. Andrewa (talk) 01:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Balance
While sources may have devoted much detail to every aspect of the shootings and Clemmons' prior actions, this article as written is out of balance, given the subject of the police officers' murders. I think there is too much space and content devoted to Clemmons. If you look at articles about other mass shootings, there is not so much on the shooter. There has been an expressed editorial desire at Wikipedia not to glorify the criminals in these cases. Stick to a summary of the facts. Parkwells (talk) 21:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Fold Clemmons into this page
Mr. Clemmons is known for this single event, and so is not a PUBLICFIGURE. He should be covered here in the event, and not have his own page. Mcfnord (talk) 07:00, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose to merge Maurice Clemmons into 2009 Lakewood shooting. I think that Maurice Clemmons is not notable without the 2009 Lakewood shooting; and, therefore, the content in his article can be merged into its own section within this article, perhaps either before or after the Victims section. While the Maurice Clemmons article is well-written and even rated GA, much of the content is unrelated to what makes him arguably notable and thus I think can be condensed into a section instead of its own article. Geeky Randy (talk) 15:59, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge – Clemmons is not notable outside of the 2009 Lakewood shooting and therefore the content of his article can be condensed and contained within this one. Geeky Randy (talk) 17:07, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Whitewash incident
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2009_Lakewood_shooting&type=revision&diff=1121551217&oldid=1121549605

Single-edit editor appears to whitewash local political fallout to omit well-established facts. Prior to removal of subject's own page at his request, wave after wave of new-account attackers appeared to whitewash it. Revert this abusive edit if you want some fun in their netherworld of smears and sleaze. Democracy dies in darkness, with sleazy little minions that help. 75.172.108.47 (talk) 04:58, 13 November 2022 (UTC)