Talk:2009 MTV Video Music Awards

Links
Links are broken... Plus, the infobox says that the host will be Russell Brand (2008) but below it says that it will be Katy Perry-

Pepsi Rock Band
Since we have the five finalists on the Pepsi Rock Band website, would be alright to add a section to the page about them as well? DJKingpin (talk) 02:01, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Controversy
I'm sure that a controversy section should be added on this. As many people know, TMZ is reporting that Kanye West upstaged Taylor Swift upon her acceptance of her award for Best Female Video. He interrupted her speech, and proclaimed that "...Beyonce had the best video of all time!".

http://www.tmz.com/2009/09/13/ultra-d-bag-kanye-hijacks-taylor-swift/

Immortalized on youtube forever. So sad. Please add. 75.101.115.11 (talk) 02:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)Anonymous
 * IMHO, the antics that occur at that anual Awards show? are all staged. Welcome to the era of Reality Television. GoodDay (talk) 15:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It is clear that this antic was not staged, far from it. Plenty of reality television shows are not either. Flyer22 (talk) 01:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Beyonce looked "shocked" as the article says. To me, she looked flattered, but amazed he was actually doing what he was doing. I think the word shocked should be replaced —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.117.155 (talk) 19:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The article incorrectly states what happened, as witness by all, and is unfortunately locked for editing even though this is the case. Kanye did not state Beyonce should have won; he suggested it- big difference.  Additionally, Lil Mama did not jump on stage 'uninvitedly'- she was 'uninvited.'  Way to go, 'editor'.207.172.166.181 (talk) 00:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Please note that this is not a forum. Falcon8765 (talk) 01:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, which is why Wiki is becoming more of a gossip site than a resource.65.215.94.13 (talk) 20:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I doubt that, seeing as gossip comments on talk pages here are typically removed. The same goes for most gossip in articles, unless the gossip is actually very newsworthy...like this incident.


 * Either way, the issues brought up by IP 207.172.166.181 are no longer the case. Flyer22 (talk) 01:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Kanye West called Taylor Swift after she was on The View and apologized. She accepted his apology. Should we add that? Greenguitar3 (talk) 01:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If there are reliable sources stating this, then yes. Make sure that the references are not bare when added, though. Flyer22 (talk) 01:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have now added this information about The View. Flyer22 (talk) 05:45, 16 September 2009

"In addition to the West controversy, Jay-Z and Alicia Keys were performing "Empire State of Mind", but towards the end of their performance, Lil Mama jumped and danced on the stage uninvited. She soon later issued an apology." This has nothing to do with Kanye West...

As the text now stands: finish her speech." Is this a random quotation mark, or is the initial quotation mark missing?  Kdammers (talk) 17:33, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

(UTC)

Biggest Winners
Please Add!!! Beyonce = 3 Lady Gaga = 3 Green Day = 3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.26.170 (talk) 04:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Why? Can't readers do the math themselves that they would need someone else to do simple counting for them?  Leave it out.  Wiki articles don't need to cover EVERYTHING about a topic.65.215.94.13 (talk) 20:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Beyonce nomination
Some people have suggested that Beyonce wasn't nominated for the best female video anyway. This appears to be supported by the MTV video site. I did some snooping and while the MTV site suggests Beyonce wasn't nominated, many sources suggest she was. At first I wondered if they were mistaken but in fact if you look at the comments here it appears it's definite she was nominated and this is clear if you watch the award show. I presume the MTV site is mistaken or perhaps Beyonce was removed for some reason relating to this controversy. Regardless while we probably can't source things to the comment section even of a newspaper blog and by the blog owner, we can source, as we should, to all the secondary sources which do say she was nominated Nil Einne (talk) 14:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I just checked the MTV site and Beyonce is there: . I presume that she was removed due to some sort of glitch, though it wouldn't be uncommon to see MTV forgetting to list some nominees in their archives (they may still not have the All-American Rejects in Best New Artist from 2003 and I'm sure over half the 1992 Cinematography nominees are also missing there) or listing the wrong video (like Julian Lennon in 1985).  If we can find a credible source that lists the correct information, though, then there should not be a reason to nor include that piece of information. --Andresg770 (talk) 19:03, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah she's there now so no more confusion Nil Einne (talk) 14:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Barack Obama speaking out against Kanye West's outburst
Should we include this information or not? As seen in this link by The Politico, he did indeed comment on it. Or should we simply leave it out because it was off the record and because it will just keep getting removed from this article by some people? After all, two IPs removed it, with one even stating that the information is false simply because it was taken down from the site it was first originally at. Flyer22 (talk) 20:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Editor Shadow Ultra added this Obama information back, with additional information of an audio version of it; I tweaked it. I suppose we will just see how this information is received this time around. Flyer22 (talk) 20:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There is absolutely no reason this should be removed; Obama made the comment, we have the audio, and it's newsworthy because the president is commenting on a matter many people probably wouldn't expect (a random celebrity feud), which is rather unprecedented. If we can include the comments made by every Joe Celebrity on the matter, I'm pretty sure Obama himself flies past any notability requirements for comment. Whether or not it was made "off the record" is irrelevent, because it's on the record now. ShadowUltra (talk) 21:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with ShadowUltra. Flyer22 (talk) 21:43, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Why are we saying he commented and not what he said? He called Kanye a "jackass". I'd usually leave that out, but we're talking about the President of the United States sayng it. That's fairly significant don't you think? Niteshift36 (talk) 05:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As I stated on Greenguitar3's talk page, I decided to leave it out because, "...I don't see why it's so important to state exactly what Obama said. All that is going to do is further incite removal of the mention altogether." Basically, I felt/feel that it is too provocative, in that it will be the target of higher removal and vandalism simply because this is the President who said it. People can always find out exactly what he said through the references; if they are not familiar with how the References section works, then they can simply Google it. But if WP:Consensus is for the re-inclusion of "jackass," I will add back the version of it I had in when I tweaked Greenguitar3's re-add of it. Flyer22 (talk) 05:45, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I added the "jackass" comment back but within its full quote and with additional reliable references and information; that should increase its chances of being left alone. Flyer22 (talk) 12:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Like I said, normally, that is something I'd tend to leave out. But it seemed significant, not just because of who said it, but because it became a mini-story itself because of the circumstances (a reporter from another network overheard it when Obama was talking to a reporter from another network). Niteshift36 (talk) 13:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand what you mean. Flyer22 (talk) 13:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Meme
His outburst at the MTV awards has become somewhat of a meme. Should this be mentioned in the article? Sources: Ctrl-Alt-Del comic using the meme, Know Your Meme entry, Urban Dictionary entry, Article on 1UP.com about the meme, Article on Movieline. There's about another 80k hits for "imma let you finish" on Google too, so it's not exactly something that's small. — Burningmace 22:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


 * An editor recently added information about this to the article. But, per Wikipedia, this information should be backed up by reliable sources. Out of the sources you have displayed above, I see that Movieline counts as a reliable source. Flyer22 (talk) 23:18, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Awards not on the winners’ page
I notice that the winners’ page does not mention the “Best Performance in a Pepsi Rock Band Video” or “Best Breakout New York City Artist Award.” This creates doubt in my mind whether these should be regarded “real” VMAs.

According to the Google preview for this Advertising Age subscription article, “Pepsi bought the rights to one of the awards that will now be known as the Best Performance in a Pepsi Rock Band Video Award”. If that is really what happened, in my book that makes this “award” little more than an elaborate advertisement. (Also aren’t all [other] VMAs decided by a panel of judges? This one was decided by mass popular vote on a website.) If the article retains this award, at least its questionable status should be noted.

According to this OurStage page the NYC contest is only one of eight MTV Local Music Contests. If the article retains this contest, shouldn’t the other seven be listed as well? —teb728 t c 05:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Interesting. Any other thoughts on this? Flyer22 (talk) 09:04, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Last year they also did "Best Breakout _____ Artist" contests but no one knew about them so no one added them (and the info is kinda lost by now). I was actually very surprised that someone actually even bothered adding that category since it was a local contest, but whoever it was even tried to create an article for it (which has now been deleted).  If it was up to me, it should be deleted, since there really was little to no link to the VMAs for those contests:  I watched the telecast and there were no announcements (even local) about who the winners were.  I could be wrong, though.
 * As far as the "Pepsi Rock Band Video" award, however, that one has more of a shot to stay in my opinion. It was at one point actually linked from the VMA website (i.e., you clicked in "Categories Main" and the icon for it was there while voting was open).  Also, the winners WERE announced during a commercial break of the live VMA telecast, so MTV seems to have supported it.  And if I'm not mistaken (I'll check into this) the winners actually got a Moonman.  As far as the winner being decided by voting, that shouldn't make any difference:  All of the categories this year except for the six technical awards (direction, choreography, special effects, art direction, editing, cinematography) were decided through public voting (or at least with some public vote component), so that shouldn't be a reason to eliminate a category from the article.  Neither of the two would be great losses, though. --Andresg770 (talk) 13:13, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for weighing in on this, Andresg770. Flyer22 (talk) 15:58, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No problem, and just to clarify, the Best Perfomance in a Pepsi Rock Band Video did get a moonman according to this Reuters press release:
 * I'm still ambivalent about the Best Breakout Artist Award... --Andresg770 (talk) 21:07, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about the first Pepsi award either way. But the "MTV VMA Best Breakout Band in New York City" is clearly an MTV VMA. The comment above that "there really was little to no link to the VMAs" for it is contrary to the facts.

First, it is part of its official name, as reflected in the sourced references. See, for example, MTV's VMA Best Breakout New York City Artist Award Contest Official Rules.

Second, as you can see here, the MTV VMA logo attaches to official releases regarding this award, clearly calling it the "MTV VMA Best Breakout NYC Artist Award".

Third, other official communications refer to the award as an MTV VMA as well; see "MTV Video Music Awards '09 Best Breakout NYC Artist".

Finally, in New York the competition for the MTV VMA involved 190 bands, the competition between the final three nominee bands was held at a major venue (The Fillmore at Irving Plaza), the panel judging the finalists consisted of an MTV person and two VMA performers (Fefe Dobson and a singer from Cobra Starship), and a moonman was awarded the winner at the official MTV VMA ceremony at Radio City Music Hall in New York City.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm... Fair point, I guess. But why is there such emphasis on the NYC contest.  I think that if we are going to have that one on the page, then we should also add the other SEVEN contests that took place across the nation (especially the one in LA which MTV Tr3s HEAVILY featured on its website).  So if someone wants to get that information and add it to the page, go right ahead.
 * Also, I'm sure these contests also took place last year, so someone should try to dig up that information to have a more complete article. Still, I'm ambivalent to call it an award, since I don't see anywhere that the winners got a moonman (like in the Pepsi Rock Band award).  Maybe we could make a separate section of these contests like it's done with other contests related to the VMAs that are not really awards.  At least that's my opinion. --Andresg770 (talk) 16:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the winner of the MTV VMA Best Breakout Artist in NYC contest was given a moonman at the Radio City official MTV VMA ceremony by Russell Brand. And since MTV itself calls it an MTV VMA, and uses the MTV VMA logo with the award, I think its beyond cavil that that is what it is.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you provide a source that states that the winners received moonmen? Because I checked the Official Rules link you provided and the "Grand Prize" section mentions nothing about a moonman, only promo spots and exposure on MTV2.  The Pepsi Rock Band Video category's official rules, on the other hand, do explicitly mention the moonmen: "GRAND PRIZE: One (1) Grand Prize will be awarded to each registered Band Member (Entrant and up to nine (9) registered Band Members) of the Grand Prize Winning Video consisting of a trip to the 2009 MTV Video Music Awards and receipt of a MTV VMA Moonman statue (the "Grand Prize")." .  A source proving that the winners get a moonman should effectively prove this was a category and not just a contest. --Andresg770 (talk) 03:54, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, can you provide a source where “MTV itself” refers to the Local Music Contests at all? All of your references above are from OurStage, not MTV. —teb728 t c 05:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The question, as I understand it, is whether this award is an MTV VMA. IMHO the above demonstrates that MTV itself refers to the award as an MTV VMA in its Official Rules, in its media, and in its logo advertising. MTV specifically calls it a VMA. I think that MTV is a reliable source, that its statements could not be clearer, and would think that enough; who are we to replace MTV's precise language with characterizations that nullify it? In any event, to further clarify and in addition to the above:
 * 1) The official contest rules are MTV's rules. This is clear from the document.  The rules are self-identified in the document's title as "MTV's ... Official Rules".  And they bear an MTV Networks address in Section 19 for notices re winners' names/rules requests.  Furthermore, MTV's Official Rules make repeated references to the award being an MTV VMA, including: Section 1: "These Official Rules apply to the "MTV VMA Best Breakout NYC Artist Award". Section 2: Refers to it as the "MTV VMA Best Breakout NYC Artist Award". I believe that the award is an MTV VMA because MTV's official rules call it an MTV VMA.
 * 2) Furthermore, MTV's co-sponsor OurStage (identified as such by MTV in Section 4 of "MTV's ... Official Rules") released the following: "The MTV Video Music Awards is the hottest night in music. This year Time Warner Cable and MTV2 recognized local artists with a VMA of their own – The Best Breakout New York City Artist Award! Over 190 artists entered and MTV selected the three nominees ... to battle it out in front of top MTV VMA talent at a Time Warner Cable MTV VMA weekend pre-party! MeTalkPretty was named this year’s Best Breakout NYC Artist and was featured on MTV during the live VMAs"
 * 3) And the following MTV video (self-identified as an MTV video, while hosted on a Time Warner/partnerships/MTV url -- note that this accords with references by MTV in Sections 14(a)&(b) of MTV's Official Rules to a co-branded website with TimeWarner) starts off with the MTV VMA logo (indicating the MTV Video Music Awards ceremony, "hosted by Russell Brand"); And at the end it says "To see who wins the VMA for best breakout artist, tune in to the VMAs on Sept. 13 at 9 PM" The official VMA ceremony was of course hosted by Russell Brand on Sept. 13 at 9 PM.
 * 4) And here is a picture of the grand prize winner with the moonman.
 * 5) Ourstage and at least one other site previously had articles up as I recall mentioning that the award was being presented at Radio City Music Hall at the VMA ceremony by Brand, which is in accordance with the above. Also, there were some videos of it on youtube, but those have been taken down for copyright violations.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I still think it odd that you have produced references from OurStage, TWC, and MySpace but nothing from MTV itself. (Surely you tried to find one?) A reference from MTV itself would be particularly interesting because it would clarify the official name of the award: Was it “…NYC…” or “…New York City…”? OurStage has it both ways; so they are obviously mistaken on at least one of them. Also do the other 7 Local Music Contests have as good credentials? Should the article include them? —teb728 t c 01:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The official contest rules are MTV's rules. This is apparent from the document. The official MTV document reflects the name of the award as the "MTV VMA NYC Best Breakout Artist Award" in Sections 1 and 2. MTV may well spell it out alternatively (as MLB uses both the abbreviation "MLB" and alternatively spells it out as "Major League Baseball"; and the NFL uses the abbreviation "NFL" but also spells it out as "National Football League"; and as (of course) MTV uses both "VMA" and "Video Music Award" interchangeably), but you can't go wrong using the construct of "MTV VMA NYC Best Breakout Artist Award" as it appears in MTV's VMA Best Breakout New York City Artist Award Contest Official Rules.  As to the other awards, if there is also an MTV document indicating that they are MTV VMAs, I would think so, but I've not explored that so I could not tell you.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:13, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If that's official name, perhaps the article should be changed to agree with it. But are you sure you copied it right? That's a third version of the award name in this section. Before it was always "Best Breakout NYC Artist Award" or "Best Breakout New York City Artist Award". It would be nice to have confirmation from www.mtv.com, but I can't find any mention of the award there; can you? —teb728 t c 20:31, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The official MTV VMA Best Breakout New York City Artist Award Contest Official Rules are set forth above in a format that allows you to click through to see how MTV itself referred to the award. The official MTV logo also is set forth, both in the video and separately, and as any use or creation of the MTV logo by one other than MTV would be a copyright violation (and as is well known, MTV is very careful about copyright violations), that is reasonable indicia of an alternative use of the name by MTV (as in the "VMA/Video Music Awards" example).  Finally, there is the MTV/Time Warner partnership site, mentioned in the MTV rules -- any use of that name would also be an MTV-approved use.  We have official MTV documents (including a legal document, full of disclaimers of liability and all sorts of legal language) with usages of the name; that is more than sufficient.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

My problem with this is NOT whether or not the contest was related at all to the VMAs (it obviously was), but rather whether or not it should be considered a category in here (like Video of the Year or Best Cinematography). First off, I still don't think that there is any proof that this was an actual category: How do you prove that you won a VMA? You show that you have a Moonman, right? If the Grand Prize section of the Official Rules doesn't include any mention about the winners receiving a Moonman, can you honestly say that it was a "Video Music Award" and not just a contest? Sure, the contest was linked to the VMAs, but it wasn't a category like Best Pop Video.

Second, unless I have really bad eyesight, the picture you provided does NOT show the winners with their Moonman. This is what a Moonman looks like:. Whatever it is they are holding in that picture doesn't have a black round base, an MTV flag, etc. Even the people in the Pepsi Rock Band Video contest won a Moonman (as explicitly listed in the Official Rules I posted above), which is why I'm less hesitant to add it to the nominations list (even though there are good chances MTV might pretend that award never existed). Heck, the biggest news of that contest was that, for the first time, MTV had sold the rights to one of its Moonmen to a corporation and gave it to non-professionals. (See: )

Third, the use of "MTV VMA" in the name doesn't imply that it is an award. In 2006 MTV had an "MTV VMA Insider" contest (with finalists and a winner), but no one puts that under the "Nominations" tab.

Finally, these were local contests, to which not everyone had access. People with DirecTV or Dish, for instance, most likely had no idea about the local music contests because satellite providers have one national signal for everyone and thus their channels don't really feature local commercials (unlike local cable companies which can feature these promo spots only in their areas).

So what I'm saying is not that these contests don't deserve to be in the page; instead, I'm saying that they shouldn't be considered to be equals to the actual categories like Best Female Video because there is no proof of them being that. If anything, there should be a separate section for ALL local music contests, as there really isn't anything special about the NYC one that makes it immediately deserving of being featured in the article over the other seven. I have no interest on whether or not these contests stay in the page, but we shouldn't mislead people into believing that they are as much categories as the other ones when there is no proof of that. --Andresg770 (talk) 00:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that the picture does not show moonmen: They are clearly tall glasses with something white and pink inside. If someone wants to add the other awards, here are all the announcements (and all the rules):
 * NYC: announcement rules
 * Bay Area: announcement rules
 * Atlanta: announcement rules
 * Chicago: announcement rules
 * Boston: announcement rules
 * Philly: announcement rules
 * DC: announcement rules
 * LA: announcement rules
 * Notice that in each case the announcement says the winner “was featured on MTV during the live VMAs locally”. And in no case do the rules mention a moonman. In other words the winners were shown on local feeds during the VMA, but their performances were not part of the VMA show, and there is no indication that they received moonmen. —teb728 t c 01:25, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * MTV, in an official MTV document, calls the award an MTV VMA. We don't have to look far to see that this is an award.  MTV calls it an "MTV VMA ... Award".  It does not say that it is related to the MTV VMAs; it calls it an MTV VMA Award.  That is all that is needed.  And that is what we have.  Had MTV chosen to call it something other than an MTV VMA, it would not belong here.  The fact that MTV also uses the MTV logo with the award, that a moonman was awarded (I can see it, encased), that it was awarded at the VMA ceremony in New York, etc., are all supportive but quite frankly superfluous.  If there is support for the others that reflects that they are MTV VMAs (I don't know that they were awarded at the VMA ceremony, but that is not necessarily dispositive IMHO), by all means list them.  As far as categories being of a different level of significance, that has always been the case in all VMA (and Oscar and Tony and Grammy) awards ceremonies.  If MTV calls it an MTV VMA Award, though, which it clearly does, it deserves to be listed as such.  Just an Oscar is given for "Best Live Action Short Film", and a Grammy is given for "Best Hawaiian Music Album" and for "Best Boxed Or Special Limited Edition Package".  You may view those as lesser than some other Oscars and Grammys, but they are, respectively, an Oscar and Grammy, because they are identified as such by the entity that gives out the award.  As far as the other awards are concerned, without spending any more time on them I'll simple say that if MTV (or another reliable source) explicitly calls them an "MTV VMA", then I think it would be find to include them (with the source reflected, if you believe that someone may question the characterization).--Epeefleche (talk) 01:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Since you mention “lesser” Oscars, Tonys, and Grammys: If you win one of the less famous Academy Awards, Tony Awards, or Grammy Awards, you get an Oscar statuette, Antoinette Perry Award, or Gramophone statuette, respectively, and you are listed as a recipient by AMPAS, the American Theatre Wing, or the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences, respectively. Apparently MeTalkPretty won some air time on Time Warner Cable and on MTV2 but no Moonman and no recognition whatsoever on mtv.com.
 * Oh, you say you see a Moonman: Where? In the Pilsner glass?! A Moonman is silvery with a black base, not white and pink; no self-respecting winner would dunk their Moonman in a Pilsner glass; and it is too big to fit in one anyway.
 * As for the other seven contests: Look at the links in my 01:25 post above. The other seven are no less impressive than the NYC contest. (But IMHO they are all pretty unimpressive. —teb728 t c 07:49, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that to get an Oscar, you need to have the Academy say you got an Oscar. Period.  Here, MTV itself says explicitly that the award is a MTV VMA Award.  Who are we to tell them it's not?  Wikipedia is charged with reflecting information with reliable sources, and here that is precisely what we have.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * @teb728: For some background on this... the "Best Breakout NYC Artist" whatever award started getting covered on Wikipedia when Epeefleche and his socks were on a campaign to keep the non-notable band The Shells from having their article deleted; since this award was pretty much their only meager claim to notability, Epeefleche went out of his way to "drum up" the award on various Wikipedia articles and create links to it everywhere. That's the reason it's included in this article. As for the award itself, it's a non-notable consolation prize that was not featured on MTV's website and not mentioned on the TV broadcast, it's entirely of local interest (if even that), and it's sponsored by Time Warner, not necessarily by MTV. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 20:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Some more background correcting above innacuracies. 1) Rjanag has been following me seeking to delete pages and information I put up, even when properly sourced. 2) There was a sock investigation, and I was cleared from being a sockpuppeteer (though I did use multiple accounts for maintenance of watch lists, a practice I stopped) -- as a result, the initial ban on me was lifted. Rjanag knows this very well, and is spreading incorrect information. 3) As Rjanag very well knows, in contrast to his above assertions, it is an award that MTV itself refers to as an MTV VMA, in various places, including the shared MTV website that MTV refers to in MTV's Official Rules. 4) As Rjanag very well knows, it is sponsored by MTV.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I hate to say it, Epeefleche, but your Oscar example is kinda flawed: Oscar is the name of the statuette, not the award; the award is an Academy Award.  So in theory, yes, the Academy can say you have an Academy Award without actually giving you an Oscar [statuette]; but if they say that you have an Oscar and you don't have an Oscar statuette, then no matter what that is false.  Plus, give me ONE example of someone who has won an Academy Award and did not get an Oscar statuette for it; or someone who won a Grammy Award and didn't get a gramophone statuette; or someone who has won a Golden Globe Award and didn't get a golden globe statuette.  I find it hard to consider something as a VMA "category" when the winners don't even receive a Moonman.  Maybe if it was an MTV VMA contest, but not an MTV VMA category.  Note how in this press release MTV calls the Pepsi Rock Band Video award a "category" and explicitly mentions the winners receiving their Moonman: .  You don't really see that in the Official Rules of the Breakout Artist pages.  Thus, if anything, they are contests, not "Nominations." --Andresg770 (talk) 04:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You are absolutely correct as to the mistake in my Oscar example. Meant to say Academy Award.  I don't think we have evidence as to what statute each person got for every Academy Award.  If I asked you to give me the pix for each you may not find them.  It wouldn't matter.


 * Wikipedia articles should rely primarily on reliable published sources sources Here we have a primary source legal document that clearly refers to it as an MTV VMA Award. That directly supports the information as it is presented in an article, and is appropriate to the claim made.  All else that you are describing is either irrelevant or violates No original research.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:59, 3 October 2009 (UTC) -Epeefleche (talk) 05:50, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Enough already
Now we're up to a list of a dozen people that tweeted or whatever about Kayne acting like a "jackass" (quoting the President, so it's not a personal attack). Come on, do we have to list every celeb, celeb wanna-be and celeb hanger-on that said anything about it? Pick a few big names and be done with it. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:39, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090707032626/http://www.ourstage.com/go/mtv2dc to http://www.ourstage.com/go/mtv2dc
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/music/la-et-kanye-fallout15-2009sep15%2C0%2C4346169.story
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.kanyeuniversecity.com/blog/?em3106=239462_-1__0_~0_-1_9_2009_0_0&em3298=&em3282=&em3281=&em3161=
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091110225626/http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/clips/taylor-swift-monologue/1173589 to http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/clips/taylor-swift-monologue/1173589/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130812201835/http://blog.washingtonpost.com/clicktrack/2010/10/album_review_taylor_swift_spea.html to http://blog.washingtonpost.com/clicktrack/2010/10/album_review_taylor_swift_spea.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 12:27, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

new page for kanye-taylor feud
this feud has been going on for 8 years this deserves its own wikipedia page.


 * Support: that section is longer than the rest of the article. fgnievinski (talk) 06:27, 2 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Regarding this? That Kanye West interrupted Taylor Swift at the 2009 MTV Video Music Awards does not need its own Wikipedia article. See what WP:No page states. It hasn't needed its own article for years. What that section needs is a trim. It keeps being expanded with what is essentially trivia, and an article on it wouldn't be much unless an experienced editor were to do a good job on it. It's understandable that this incident is the biggest section of the article since it was an incident that overshadowed everything else about that awards ceremony and articles like these usually don't have a lot to state. And as for "a feud"? An article about a West and Swift feud, which would mainly be about the 2009 incident? No.
 * I will alert Talk:Kanye West, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography and Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard to this discussion. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:38, 2 October 2020 (UTC) Fixed post. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:43, 2 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose. It belongs in the context of that article, and I agree with Flyer22 Frozen that it needs serious editing. The overly-detailed play-by-play (example: "During the commercial break, singer Pink walked by West and reportedly shook her head in disgust.") is out of place in an encyclopedia article. The section should summarize the key points of the incident as supported by sources, not include who cried and who hugged and who glared at West and who said something else blah blah blah. Too many quotes. Schazjmd   (talk)  00:06, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Schazjmd, I remember adding that all those years ago. Chalk it up to my inexperience as an editor at that time. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 00:57, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , when things first break, I think we all tend to throw in the kitchen sink. Hard to know what exactly will be important years from now (then).  Schazjmd   (talk)  01:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I cut the Pink thing with this edit (followup fix here). Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 06:31, 4 October 2020 (UTC) Tweaked post. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 06:43, 4 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose - absolutely not necessary. Can easy be trimmed to more important points, and kept in the parent article. We’re not a tabloid or a fansite that needs to list off every single insignificant development of a celebrity feud. Sergecross73   msg me  00:11, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose - for all the cogent reasons previous editors have articulated. Well said! ¶ Thank you for the heads up Flyer22 Frozen. You're so good about alerting the appropriate WikiProjects about RfCs. It's very helpful and important gnomish work. And we all know that WikiGnomes ROCK! :0) (Whether one does almost exclusively gnomish work, or one is a major contributing editor who also spirits about doing good gnome things.) Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 03:26, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Not technically an RfC, but pretty much like one. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 06:31, 4 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose Keep in this article and drastically trim for the good reasons given by and . Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:51, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose - waaay too much detail already in this article, no need for a separate one, agree with ruthless edits below as well. Isaidnoway (talk) 07:00, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose I would reduce the section instead. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 18:42, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

A ruthless edit
Here's how I would approach the incident in this article (w'links and refs not included but are in the article; the bold is just to identify the structure of the paragraphs and are not actual headings): That's it, that's all I (personally) would include. (I warned you it was ruthless!) Schazjmd   (talk)  16:35, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The incident
 * While Taylor Swift was giving her acceptance speech for Best Female Video for "You Belong with Me", Kanye West came on stage, took the microphone from her, and said, "Yo, Taylor, I'm really happy for you, I'mma let you finish, but Beyoncé had one of the best videos of all time! One of the best videos of all time!" (West was referring to the music video for "Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)"). As the audience booed, West handed the microphone back to Swift.
 * Immediate repercussions
 * West was subsequently kicked out of the show. Later in the show, when Beyoncé won Video of the Year for "Single Ladies", she acknowledged her experience winning her first VMA with Destiny's Child at the age of 17, then called Swift back to the stage and let her finish her speech.
 * Reactions
 * Various celebrities and industry figures, including Pink, Janet Jackson, Kelly Clarkson, Katy Perry, Joel Madden, Adam Lambert, Kellie Pickler, Ryan Seacrest, Chris Jericho, Jeremy Fall, and Dane Cook, condemned West for the verbal outburst. West's actions were criticized by both U.S. President Barack Obama and former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. West apologized on his blog and during an appearance on The Jay Leno Show.
 * Long-term cultural impacts
 * In 2013, Rolling Stone named the incident the wildest moment in VMA history. West's outburst resulted in an Internet meme which consisted of images of West being superimposed onto other images alongside text in the style of his VMA outburst ("X is one of the greatest Y of all time", or variants thereon, in some cases preceded by "I'm really happy for you" and/or "I'mma let you finish"). The incident has been parodied on multiple occasions, including at the 2009 Country Music Association Awards, by Swift on Saturday Night Live, by Jay-Z at the 2012 BET Awards, and even by West himself at the 57th Annual Grammy Awards in 2015.
 * Not quite ruthless enough,, I think:
 * "West was subsequently kicked out of removed from the show. Later in the show, when Beyoncé won Video of the Year for "Single Ladies" , she acknowledged her experience winning her first VMA with Destiny's Child at the age of 17, then and called Swift back to the stage and to let her finish her speech."
 * "*Various celebrities and industry figures, including Pink, Janet Jackson, Kelly Clarkson, Katy Perry, Joel Madden, Adam Lambert, Kellie Pickler, Ryan Seacrest, Chris Jericho, Jeremy Fall, and Dane Cook, and prominent political figures such as U.S. President Barack Obama and former U.S. President Jimmy Carter condemned West for the verbal outburst. West's actions were criticized by both . West apologized on his blog and during an appearance on The Jay Leno Show."
 * " West's The outburst resulted in an Internet meme which consisted of images of West being superimposed onto other images alongside with text in the style of his VMA outburst interruption ("X is one of the greatest Y of all time", or variants thereon, in some cases preceded by "I'm really happy for you" and/or "I'mma let you finish"). "
 * The Destiny's Child reference, the long list of celebrities, and the repetition of the quote are all unnecessary or already covered elsewhere. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:41, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * More ruthless than mine, I applaud you. I'd think we'd keep the Rolling Stone recognition tho, as it's included in the lead. Schazjmd   (talk)  17:46, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Regarding what to keep, I agree about retaining the Rolling Stone recognition. I also think we should keep a bit of Swift's post-incident commentary and some of the analysis. In particular, I mean the Emil Wilbekin and Ann Powers commentary. Analysis material is the kind of encyclopedic material we look for when relaying how things were received, whether it's television, film, or something else. But I think it should be trimmed. I'm not sure if we should note that the topic has come up on-and-off throughout the years, but I think that mentioning that will help combat "updates" on the matter. Also, the Kanye West, Taylor Swift, and Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It) articles point readers to this article for further detail. It's not really "further detail" if this article only states the same as the others. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 06:31, 4 October 2020 (UTC) Tweaked post. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 06:43, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Since both this discussion and the split above have petered out, I'm going to make the edit, incorporating suggestions from both and  and removing the split tag.  Schazjmd   (talk)  21:32, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Image deletion proposals
There are discussion currently underway at Files for Discussion to purge notable award ceremony images from the project. Specifically: Comments encouraged. Feoffer (talk) 21:39, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Will Smith slaps Chris Rock
 * Janet Jackson and Justing Timberlake's wardrobe malfunction
 * Kanye West grabs the mic at VMA 2009.