Talk:2009 swine flu pandemic/Archive 3

Smithfield Farms from Virginia
Everything began when Virginia-based Smithfield Farms went to Mexico. In 1985, Smithfield Farms received what was, at the time, the most expensive fine in history – $12.6 million – for violating the US Clean Water Act at its pig facilities near the Pagan River in Smithfield, Virginia, but when NAFTA came into effect 1994, Smithfield Farms moved its harmful practices to Veracruz, Mexico so that it could evade the tougher US regulators. Reporter Jeff Teitz reported in 2006 on the conditions in Smithfield’s US facilities. Pigs are artificially inseminated and fed and delivered of their piglets in cages so small they cannot turn around. Forty fully grown 250-pound male hogs often occupy a pen the size of a tiny apartment. The temperature inside hog houses is often hotter than ninety degrees. There is no sunlight, straw, fresh air or earth. The air, saturated almost to the point of precipitation with gases from shit and chemicals became lethal and pigs start dying.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12840743/porks_dirty_secret_the_nations_top_hog_producer_is_also_one_of_americas_worst_polluters

Consider what happens when such forms of massive pork production move to unregulated territory where Mexican authorities allow wealthy interests to do business without adequate oversight.

timeline?
I think a useful section would be a timeline for the disease. People in the far future who are dealing with another outbreak will want to use this entry as research and being able to see how the disease progressed would be very useful for them when dealing with something similar.

It would also be useful for now because people who want to look to see if something major has happened they can just check the timeline without having to parse through all the entries in the history. --24.87.88.162 (talk) 09:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I have suggested graphing the rate of infection and created a (lame and poorly researched) example above. I may move those comments down here as I just picked a random spot for it, but if you scan for the graphic, you'll find it.  --Replysixty (talk) 10:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Except the data we have is about when reports of infection were published. In many cases, those reports do not mention when the person's symptoms started, or even the date on which the sample was taken.  Case in point is the little boy living near the pig farm:  he got sick and recovered weeks ago and as of last night his sample was reported to be the oldest found so far in Mexico, but from context it appears the sample was obtained some time in April.  The first spikes in influenza-like illness were first detected in Mexico in mid March, so a sample collected in April tells us little about the origin of this outbreak.  --Una Smith (talk) 16:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right that the initial discovery of the virus' existence in Mexico makes the first few weeks of the timeline a mess. But moving forward I think we'll have more reliable data now that there is awareness, the virus can be confirmed in a lab, and there is less need to go back and modify data from weeks prior. --Replysixty (talk) 21:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I looked for time series data from CDC, can only find current data. Google Flu Trends http://www.google.org/flutrends/ might be another way to track this. Nils Peterson (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Animate the map?
Just an idea to animate the File:H1N1 map.svg to show reports of infection. I can't animate, but... thought someone else might be able to. --Moni3 (talk) 13:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say that a static image is preferred in case, per WP:ANIMATIONS. However, if you're suggesting to keep the main map at the top, and just adding another version of a map (an animated one), I'd say that's a wonderful idea.  hmwith  τ   17:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Someone should make a video/slideshow showing the progression day by day, numbers-wise and by country. The BBC has something similar, and it would be very informative.  65.60.200.186 (talk) 22:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice color choice on the map. Is it meant to imply Germany is responsible for the virus? :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.255.43.124 (talk) 01:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Aren't they responsible for everything? Hey, who is hungry for some bacon?  BFritzen (talk) 03:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that animating the map would be great. But if someone animates it can we get a different color scheme?  First it is the colors of the German flag, which is a little bizarre and second it is a little dark.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.69.130.82 (talk) 04:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It would make a good addition to the timeline article. It won't be two hard, but perhaps a bit early to make one... It won't be so much information and having to update it every day with a new one... Perhaps wait a week or two (if we're still alive) chandler ··· 06:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Can we use Google Earth tracker as Animated map. Google Earth has feature that tracks the virus by time, location and the condition of the infection. --Saab 1989 (talk) 17:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Map "H1N1_map.svg" incorrect
The map H1N1_map.svg is not is up-to-date according to the table "Cases by country". There are no confirmed nor suspected cases in Costa Rica as erroneously the map states:

Costa Rica Free Of Swine Flu, But Maintains Alert --Ornitorrinco (talk) 16:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This issue has now been resolved. Thanks for the notice.  CB..  .(ö)  17:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it has not been resolved at all, the map still states that Costa Rica has susspected cases, which is wrong.--Ornitorrinco (talk) 17:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

There is one confirmed case in Costa Rica. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

More recent comment re portugal moved to bottom of page. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

More recent comment re google map links moved to bottom of page. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The map is again incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.105.5 (talk) 20:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

If you're going to state something like that, at least tell us what is wrong. Viet&#124;Pham (talk) 22:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "You're doing it wrong!!!" --PigFlu Oink (talk) 22:42, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

added man made theory
plz improve it.added with a lot of proof. dont del it just cuz it is loony —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manchurian candidate (talk • contribs)
 * Please recheck your article and post non-youtube references.--Ken Durham (talk) 18:31, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why this user failed to sign, but regardless of that, I've deleted the section. It was clearly original research and relied upon self-published sources. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 18:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * He failed to sign so that we could not report his vadilisum.--Ken Durham (talk) 18:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) You can look at the edit history to see who added it. Not sure it should be considered :vadilism." The "man-made" claim was referenced to a Youtube video of a "9/11 Truth Investigator" and journalist named Wayne Madsen. Youtube is not usually permitted as a reference. But the section included other well referenced information CNN about missing virus samples and Times of India about how "Virus mix-up by lab could have resulted in pandemic" from March of this year, thus not directly related to the present. Putting this info out as a possible cause of the present epidemic would be original research and synthesis. We should not get ahead of the scientific and news reporting community in being "disease detectives," but neither should we censor inclusion if any reliable sources examine the genesis of the outbreak and look at accidental or intentional creation and release of the virus. Edison (talk) 18:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:REDFLAG is reason enough; these sources are not exceptional. In fact they are barely tangental. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 18:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I deleted it because it violated our content policies. You're right, it's no way vandalism (spelling notwithstanding!) and I think that Ken went way out of line giving a vand-warning to the user concerned. But there we go... ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 18:51, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I am just a little touchy about people posting things without any kind of proof at all. I do NOT consider youtube to be a reliable reference! How was I out of line?--Ken Durham (talk) 18:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You were out of line because you accused a user of vandalism, when in fact, he just breached WP:NOR. Perhaps you should re-read WP:NOTVAND and WP:AGF before leaving threatening messages. In future,  etc. may be of use to you. ╟─ Treasury  Tag ► contribs ─╢ 18:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Check Google News for reliable sources discussing whether the flu could be man-made: The Indonesian Health Minister, Siti Fadilah Supari, said on April 28 the "deadly swine flu virus could have been man-made." The same statement was reported by Agence France-Presse. Telegraph.co.uk has an article from April 27 "Beware of swine flu conspiracy theories." The responsible route is to have a section stating the conspiracy theory, with countervailing statements to the contrary. We do not have to maintain an artificial implication that opinion of experts is equally divided. There is not a huge amount of material at this point on the question one way or another from reliable sources. Edison (talk) 19:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * how was I threatening? tell me that!--Ken Durham (talk) 19:04, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Your very tone of voice there is threatening. Tell me that! is threatening. What you should be saying is, "I didn't consider what I said to be threatening, what specifically were you referring to?" And what I was specifically referring to is/was this - it says that the section was deleted marked as vandalism (untrue: I deleted it, and said nothing of the sort) and that it was a "false section"... I'm sure that the user thought they were behaving appropriately.
 * All I'm suggesting is that you need to calm down a little, and refresh your memory of what vandalism is. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 19:07, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You know what. I think I am letting the wikistress get to me. I should take a wikibreak, don't you all think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ken Durham (talk • contribs) 19:14, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * New Scientist (April 27) had the article "Is swine flu a bioterrorist virus?" with a discussion of how the odd combination of viruses could have arisen through normal processes.They discuss the conspiracy theories. They say "Yes, it's possible that this virus was created by a mistake at a research laboratory or a vaccine factory." But they say it is more likely a result of how we operate farms. Edison (talk) 20:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree as well that several events gave some power to this hypothesis, specially the cnn article: "Army: 3 vials of virus samples missing from Maryland facility".  Echofloripa (talk) 00:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I have no problem a brief mention of well sourced discussions of conspiracy theories. However any OR like linking this to news stories of missing vials I am strongly opposed to particularly when the virus in the vials isn't even an influenza virus and the viruses most likely went missing a very long time before the outbreak started Nil Einne (talk) 23:17, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

you skeptics want legitimate source hre you go http://www.russiatoday.ru/Top_News/2009-04-28/Swine_flu_is_manmade_virus.html http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/04/is-swine-flu-a-bioterrorist-vi.html

just cuz a RT news was on youtube it was not news worthy.wiki is biased against alternative news. manchurian candidate 07:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manchurian candidate (talk • contribs)


 * No, we are biased against teh crazy. 65.60.200.186 (talk) 22:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The term "alternative news" and us being "biased against it" sets off WP:REDFLAG, if you ask me. 66.91.63.125 (talk) 08:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Swine Flu Container Explodes on Train
IMHO it should be at least mentioned in this article: --romanm (talk) 19:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not think so. As the article says in its introduction, "the virus was not the mutated swine flu that has killed around 150 people in Mexico and that has already spread to parts of Europe."  As a result, I believe the incident is not notable enough for inclusion into the article.  Thank you in any case, though.  Cordovao (talk) 19:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The article also says "the dry ice melted" which I sincerely doubt, and which makes me question the reliability on scientific matters of the writer. Edison (talk) 19:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The article said that the government claims it was not the same one. However, a few paragraphs later it says there were five cases of H1N1. The virus in mexico. I think their governement is telling people its not the same to avoid panic. Also, if dry ice isn't handled correctly it can melt causing sever gas buildup. Check out any of the millions of "Dry-ice bombs" on youtube and you can see just how easily this can happen.Drew R. Smith (talk) 23:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There are many different strains of H1N1, one of which is the subject of this Wikipedia article, another different one that was involved in the train accident. The viruses on the train and in Mexico are not the same.  Cordovao (talk) 01:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * H5N1 != H5N1, human. 65.60.200.186 (talk) 22:24, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Mexico case count?
Times isn't a more reliable source than SSA or WHO. Please stop using any newspaper or magazine as a reliable source of information for confirmed cases. Regarding Mexico take the information either from SSA or WHO , just as you are taking information for confirmed cases from CDC for USA [User:Konegistiger|Konegistiger] 17:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Konegistiger (talk • contribs)

1st edit in discussion, so I apologize if I'm doing it wrong. The Washington Post has 336 confirmed cases in Mexico on their front page this morning. That count is also reflected in their interactive web map. Raydawn (talk) 13:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Somebody vandalized the mexican case count. It has been lowered to 49 to reflect this source, when a much more reliable publication (The Times) has stated it to be at 159. Click for article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.46.253 (talk) 20:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Any sources on these counts? It's been at 1995 for some time--has there been no new news out of Mexico? rootology ( C )( T ) 19:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Mexico is offically a retarded thrid world contery. Their Dept of Health has put a defacto ban on letting health care workers talk with the press and put an end to press confrences. Likewise the Mexican press has the crack investigative journalism skills of Channel One. Don't expect much for the next few days. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 20:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Let me augment my comments. The Dept of Health is still giving press confrences but is (accoring to the transcripts I've found) not mentioning numbers at large, only a few particular cases here or there (~of these 26 cases on this date 5 were postive, ~of the 24 cases on this date 3 were positive). IMHO when you have 1000s hospitalized and probally 1000s more at home trying Tamiflu and Tijauana knockoffs, the response to whitewash numbers is just pathetic. The Mexican style of press conferences isn't the same as in the United States, its more standing up infront of a crowd of photographers letting them snap pictures for 15 mintues, giving a 30 minute speech that contains more praises for goverment workers than useful information, and maybe taking one or two questions from friendly reporters. As far as the ban on letting workers talk to the media, that came from Anderson Cooper 360 on April 27th, I can not find a transcript though. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 20:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Do we have a source that the Mexican government has banned all contact with the news media? That sounds insane. rootology ( C )( T ) 20:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh, so that is the case, then? I saw talk of adding a note in the table that Mexico is known to be underreporting.  If this is an established fact, it should be clearly pointed out.  --π!  20:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * How would you establish it? It would bascially require a reputable source discounting the Mexican goverment. Frankly I don't think Janet Napoletano, who is more interested in keeping guns out of Mexico than stoppig people who have the flu from crossing the border, is going to do that. As far as the American media, they're too busy covering Britians Got Talent. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 20:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * In fact the information of Mexico are quite poor, in comparison to the United States. I miss for example the current number of the laboratory confirmed cases and deaths. We had at first 20 confirmed cases, and then there was from one day to the another 172 confirmed cases. I think in a week more they will suddenly publish 2000+ cases or more. Is it so difficult to publish the current cases? For Mexico, apparently, yes. -- Grochim (talk) 20:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed the CDC has a count tracker right on the frontpage of their site, since it updates based on state Dept of Health statements and CDC testing its not always the first updated but it has a timestamp and is updated consistantly. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 20:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Fatality rate
This article is saying the fatality rate is 7%, 4.5% higher than Swine Flu. It cites "Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society", a quarterly philosophy journal. The actual report is based around Spanish Flu, and has nothing to say about swine flu whatsoever. Where did they get this figure?
 * I'm guessing they got it by dividing the total deaths by the total cases? --π!  20:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * We don't know the total number of cases. We have numbers from various sources we post, but no one really knows. 273 dead out of 2528 gives you a mortality rate, but not the correct rate. What if there are an additional 2500 we don't know about or an additional 25000? Fact is until it burns out in at least one area, having infected as many as it will, we just won't know. I vote we stay away from mortality rates until a very reputable primary source(like WHO or CDC, not like the Daily Mail or CNN) puts a number out there. Nosimplehiway (talk) 20:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has a policy against putting together "information from multiple sources to reach a conclusion that is not explicitly stated by any of the sources." A health official stating a mortality rate would be legitimate for the article. A Wikipedia editor dividing a number of attributed deaths by a number of estimated cases,to arrive at a mortality rate would not be appropriate. Edison (talk) 20:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

An other problem is the number of people died by the swine flu. In Mexico there are only 7 deaths confirmed. It means that the other cases could have been caused by other diseases. It is impossible to calculate the fatality (and even an estimated of it) if only the 5% of the deaths are confirmed.--Fixvon (talk) 19:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this information should be included as well:

However, flu death toll in Mexico could be lower than first thought, said on 04/29/2009 Dr. Gregory Evans, head of the Association of Medical Microbiology and Infectious Disease Canada and a member of a federal pandemic-planning committee(http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1547114):

There was a lot of speculation and what seemed to be evidence there were dozens and dozens of deaths. Careful analysis showed these people likely died of something else, and not flu. That's really good news, and that would fit with what we've seen outside of Mexico. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.96.104 (talk) 01:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

WP:MEDICAL applies here?
Is there a template we can use to advise of this disclaimer? Seems appropriate here. GARDEN 20:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I did but someone removed it. I'm not going to fight over it even though it should be there. User F203 (talk) 21:04, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, No disclaimers in articles. Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Use one at the top of the talk page if you want, but not in the article per WP:NOT and WP:NDA. Cenarium (talk) 21:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright then, thanks for the info. GARDEN  21:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The no disclaimer is not policy, just a guideline. I don't favor huge banners that say "this article may be full of lies and may be wrong" but I've seen warnings in articles of active hurricanes before. User F203 (talk) 21:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Quoted from the policy guideline No disclaimers in articles:

There are a few exceptions to this: ...   * temporal templates such as  or. These alert the reader that the article content may be subject to significant changes in the near future for reasons beyond the control of Wikipedia ...

Seems quite applicable in this case. Readers should be advised that available info is in flux. Plvekamp (talk) 00:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Does anyone else think it may be an idea to suggest contacting local officials in the banner as suggested above? If you Google 'Swine Flu' (as I'm sure millions are), two clicks on the first result takes you to this page and, baring in mind that there are a lot of stupid people out there, it may be helpful. Don't come back at me with some stupid policy/guideline that says no banners, because IAR should be invoked when we're talking about people's well being. RaseaC (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, there are some people who want to hide the fact that WP is not perfect so they hate banners. Some other people wikilawyer and say it's policy when it's not.  I take the moderate approach that people will do dumb things and we have to caution people in major issues, like health and hurricanes.  However, we don't put cautions in every article like "kids, don't copy this for your schoolwork". User F203 (talk) 15:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Time Data Needed

 * The layout of the article and chart deliver a 'snapshot' perspective on the outbreak. It is very difficult to see how things have evolved over the past several days, which in turn makes it difficult to estimate where they might end up.
 * The page needs to offer a better "outbreak-over-time" experience. Right now the only way to get a feel for where things are headed is to look at previous revisions.
 * As officials have stated infection is 'unlikely to be contained', this outbreak could last a while, and therefore additional incentive exists to add time data to this article.

US Attributed Deaths
I noticed that the attributed deaths column has "Two" listed under the US. I feel this is very misleading considering the original source states that these two deaths were likely NOT attributed to the new swine flu strain.

I think that when writing about the first attributable US deaths, wikipedia must be VERY careful in what it writes. The first US deaths is an extremely significant event and needs to be checked and re-checked before that first "1" is put up there. I suggest that the attribtued deaths column entry for the US be reverted to "zero", until there is serious speculation among experts that a death is attributed to the new strain of swine flu. I will not edit myself as I am not that experienced but I suggest that someone change it. Vihsadas (talk) 21:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

This has since been fixed, but I do not know what the proper protocol is in marking this complete, or removing the topic heading altogether... Vihsadas (talk) 21:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The deaths listed for the US lists one, but there should be a (2) for suspected. There is an unconfermed death in CA. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/SwineFlu/Story?id=7456439&page=2 at the bottom of the page. Anon 00:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.117.36 (talk)
 * Given that the US is so much better than Mexico in timely testing (or doing any testing), I'm content with waiting for the results; but then again I can't edit this article anyways. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 00:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

The only US death is incorrect. That was just a Mexican baby that travelled to Mexico to see family and got sick, after he/she got back he/she died from swine 'flu. I too suggest that it goes back to "zero". Yaggayaggayooyoo (talk) 05:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC) Anon 07:37 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Maps need to be updated
The maps need to be updated, i see that not even Costa Rica wich has one confirmed case has painted in red, and Honduras and Venezuela has new cases Honduras.--Vrysxy ¡Californication! 22:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC

I agree.--Parker1297 (talk) 20:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

CDC vs WHO
When there was a SARS outbreak, the WHO issued travel advisories to certain cities (ie Toronto). The CDC issued a similar statement saying that traveling was fine. Respiratory therapists considered the reaction to be overblown. WHO is used in this article, I suggest the use of the (more level headed) CDC. Any comments? BFritzen (talk) 22:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I suggest we tell people what they both say. There is no need to choose one over the other. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:29, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has a policy of maintaining a global perspective on all events, and when we're dealing with an international disease outbreak, this is particularly important. Why use the CDC when we have a perfectly decent, authoritative, official global authority? Turkmenistan, Armenia, Bolivia etc may also have a particularly level headed health department, but using their advice as the benchmark would be absurd. Why should this change for the CDC just because the USA is a larger country? 62.253.240.9 (talk) 22:34, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I must agree with the argument that a global issue such as this requires a response by a global organization not to be secondarily placed in the article to a national organization's response. Cordovao (talk) 22:51, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You realize your arguing a point nobody will ever get?--Ssteiner209 (talk) 22:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol, I was arguing a global organization's responses takes precedence over a national one. Cordovao (talk) 23:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

On a related note, I'm not sure it's worth having a whole independent section for the WHO. Maybe it would be better to integrate that info as appropriate throughout the article. Maybe some sort of omnibus response section that incorporates the WHO info as well as info from the 2009 swine flu outbreak by country article? Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's amazing how often that is not true.--Ssteiner209 (talk) 23:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Considering the WHO can't even manage to pack dry ice around Flu Samples to keep them from exploding... I think I'll take my hand washing and travel advice from someone else... 'Hello Mom?' --PigFlu Oink (talk) 23:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * They did put it in dry ice, some idiot obviously sealed whatever it was travelling in. Viridae Talk 12:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Is there a better global organization than the WHO? CDC is American true, but they are not prone to fearmongering. And fearmongering can lead to real death. Swine flu vaccine has given people Guillain-Barré Syndrome. Which is more dangerous? I just don't think WHO has a good track record and I agree that both should be used. BFritzen (talk) 16:28, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Does the EU have a CDC or WHO equivilant? --PigFlu Oink (talk) 19:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ECDC publish daily reports. --Pontificalibus (talk) 19:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Your suggestion that WHO is fear mongering is point of view. How do you know the CDC isn't just playing it down for national interests, like other countries? It would violate the NPOV policy of Wikipedia to for some reason make the CDC the leading global voice on the outbreak. Lemniwinks (talk) 22:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the talk page so POV isn't really relevant however, for the article yes WHO overblows many things including the "SARS Scare" of (check me) 3-4 years ago. The mayor of Toronto was plenty angry because of the tourism lost to his city.  CDC downplaying?  Probably, but I trust their stance before I would trust the WHO. And the ECDC seems like a likely place to find good info on H1N1, which they consider a "novel" strain of influenza.... BFritzen (talk) 02:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No one knows if the WHO overblew the SARS scare. Perhaps the reason why we aren't all dead now is because of the WHO's response. Without good evidence the the WHO doesn't have a good track record in dealing with health crisises then they remain the best source. It's funny people should bring up GBS since the people responsible for that are the US authorities including the CDC not the WHO. It's also funny that people should bring up travel advisories since regardless of the merits of the short lived travel advisory to Toronto, it's the CDC who are putting out a travel advisory whereas the WHO say it's not going to help. Also the failure of one technician does not reflect much on the organisation they are working for. Remember this was a harmless sample so the person involved probably wasn't very high up. If they were carrying Ebola you might have a point. I also suspect this happens a lot more then you think, normally no one notices. Also let's not forget that the US army lost 3 samples of Venezuelan Equine Encephalitis some time over the past 4 years as they recently discovered and conspiracy theoriest are making big noises over. The point in any case is that the random POV of editors is irrelevant Nil Einne (talk) 04:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Certainly that can be a claim. SARS has been around for years.  The WHO overblew things.  Other organizations (CDC included) did not.  In a city of 5 MILLION, why wasn't there more death?  "ALL DEAD?" From SARS?  Meh.  Mayhaps you should do some research on SARS.  POV in the discussion page? (it is all POV) But in article it allows for balance.BFritzen (talk) 12:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The discussion page is intended for ways to improve the article. Editors opinions/POVs are unwelcome and indeed completely OT. Again, perhaps the reason why there are not more dead is because the WHO handled the situation well. Perhaps not. What we do know is SARS was successfully contained so if the WHO did make mistakes, they're werent catastrophic. And I trust opinions of epidemilogists much more then I trust random wikipedians who can't even understand simple wikipedia policies. Regardless this discussion has long ago gone away from having any relevance to improving the article Nil Einne (talk) 13:10, 30 April 2009 (UTc)
 * And that is your opinion, with a neat little barb in there, nice. :-P. The discussion page is mostly opinion on how an article would be better presented/ written.  BFritzen (talk) 16:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

surely the WHO should take presidence over CDC though it should be mention, just because america is a larger country, the greater good i think therefore the WHO. dowdssss —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.171.37 (talk) 15:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not precedence. This is an encyclopedia so rather side by side comparison as is in the agenda.  And don't call me Shirly. :PBFritzen (talk) 16:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Wearing Masks
Some physicians in the US are recommending the use of masks when in public.[102] The purpose of a face mask is to effectively cover a person's mouth and nose so that if a person is around someone who is infected

Could this be changed to uninfected,
 * No, then it wouldn't make any sense. 65.60.200.186 (talk) 22:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I do not have references of it, but the use of masks has three purposes. The first one is when healthy persons carry them, so they do not breathe the tiny drops of saliva floating in the air, that might contain the virus. The second reason to wear them is because some people have the virus and don't know it yet; the mask stops the saliva drops that might come out from a carrier person (even if he/she fells still healthy). The third reason, and probably the most important, is that common population feels less scared when they think, that they can do something against the virus. It makes then fell safe; this way they do not make lots of silly thinks like self medication.--Fixvon (talk) 22:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The BBC news reported a day or two ago that some doctors believe face masks need to be changed every so many hours to still be effective and that there is nowhere near enough. I cannot remember the exact amounts but i wonder if someone who knows better than me could put this in as it seems to be quite an important factWillski72 (talk) 18:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Table formatting problem
"United States" and "United Kingdom" are breaking over two lines in the table for me, but the counts aren't, causing the counts to not properly line up with the countries they refer to. --π! 00:35, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, that same thing happens to me. It needs to be fixed.  hmwith  τ   00:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I changed it to say US & UK. They're pretty common abbreviations, and they link to the articles.  hmwith  τ   00:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The same thing is happening with New Zealand now, but I'm not sure if there is any come abbreviation that would work.--69.148.8.183 (talk) 00:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * New Zlnd.? Haha, come on. There has to be a better way. Can someone give that column a fixed width? We should take this to the template's talk page, although it only shows up incorrectly when transcluded on this article. r hmwith  τ   01:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * NZ is a common abbreviation. 65.60.200.186 (talk) 22:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Table discussions should be held at Template talk:2009 swine flu outbreak table. (There's a very small "d" link at the bottom of the transcluded table.) -- Zigger &laquo;&ordm;&raquo; 01:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I think it just got started here because the problem only existed on this page, but good idea. Discussion directed in that direction.  hmwith  τ   01:42, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

SARI
PAHO's Influenza cases by a new sub-type: Regional Update (28 April 2009 13:00 WDC) (Epidemiological Alerts Vol. 6, No. 14) describes the early Mexican illnesses as SARI (severe? acute respiratory infection), but also mentions "SARI/ILI" in the surveillance section. SARI is currently absent from the 2009 flu articles. Does anyone have more information on this? -- Zigger &laquo;&ordm;&raquo; 00:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Appears to be severe acute respiratory infection. Calliopejen1 (talk) 02:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Acute respiratory infection now more properly redirects to Influenza-like illness rather than to Common cold. --Una Smith (talk) 16:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Israel
Shouldn't "Mexican flu" be mentioned as an alternate name? According to Israel, it should be called that, therefore it is an alternate name that is used. 76.66.202.139 (talk) 05:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * One Israeli politician suggested it, and the sources say he is being ignored, so no. Resurr Section (talk) 05:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thailand calls it Mexican flu too  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.69.19 (talk) 06:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Terrible! Giving the flu a national name. How racist is that for an idea, whoever suggests it! Wallie (talk) 06:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Mexican is a nationality not a race. Some people live their whole lives in anticipation of being offended; when this fails to happen they resort to being offended on behalf of other people. Then they spring to action with accusations of racism and exclamation points!!! The 'offended cusader' then reflects on his heroism and takes pride in his smugness. He writes on his blog how he made a difference and then listens to his Michael Bolton cds. The rest of us just develop thick skins, know the defintions of words, and learn how to make whitty comebacks. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 07:47, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Other flu epidemics are named after the country of origin or suspected origin, like the Spanish flu (at the time, the only news reports came out of Spain... even though the outbreak of that year started in the low countries, and the related one a year earlier was in the US), the Hong Kong flu, etc. 76.66.202.139 (talk) 09:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Lets not get on to the definition of racism. I think you know that Mexican people can be discriminated against. It is called racism. As for the Spanish flu, the flu certainly did not originate from there. It was just reported there, as they had a free society, unlike some who kept it secret at the time. Associating it with any country hurts that country, and as such could be racist. Thick skins do not help. These ideas need to be killed of quickly. It is not a joking matter. Wallie (talk) 10:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't be ridiculous. Naming a flu after its known country of origin is in no way discriminatory or racist toward the people of that country.62.253.240.9 (talk) 11:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The Spanish Flu did not start in Spain it was only known to have been reported to start there, thus it is named the Spanish Flu. How would this be any different, and how could it be racist? Besides, Mexican isn't a race, or an ethnicity, it is a nationality. There are several ethnicities contained within the Mexican country. 76.66.202.139 (talk) 12:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I never said Mexican was a race. If you say something derogatory about "Mexicans", that is racism. The fact they called it "the Spanish Flu" was certainly racist, especially as it never started there. In today's climate, these slurs are not to be tolerated. Wallie (talk) 12:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, CNN reported that patient zero is a 5 year old Mexican boy from Veracruz, who likely contracted it from a Smithfield Foods Farm there. So that would mean it did originate in Mexico... 76.66.202.139 (talk) 13:29, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * How is this saying something derogatory about Mexicans? If manure from Scotland were used in England and called Scottish manure, would that be "racist"? The first reported cases are from Mexico, or are you arguing that they aren't? (I don't mean the first actual case, I mean the first reported case) 76.66.202.139 (talk) 13:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't you people have anything better to do than to interpet words and sentences in a way that will help you push your agenda? Stop being butthurt over every single thing. Curgny (talk) 13:50, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Possible Deaths
American deaths are expected. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090428/ap_on_he_me/med_swine_flu Sky Attacker (talk) 06:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * um duh, About 30,000 to 40,000 deaths occur due to the flu eachyear in the United States.. Your comment is neither news nor unexpected, there is no need to sensationalize. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 07:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * One american as died of confirmed swine flu. at least, according to MSNBC...Drew R. Smith (talk) 10:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * CDC confirms with this case - a Texas baby - from Reuters. -Xavier Fung (talk) 11:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually a Mexican child who died in a U.S. hospital. There are still no fatal cases that originated in the U.S. Rmhermen (talk) 16:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Archive problem
Last night Mizbot removed four threads, but the deleted threads do not appear to have been added to the archive pages above. 172.129.75.13 (talk) 12:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It moved them to Archive 1. I'll check the parameters on the bot code. -- Ged UK  13:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ It will put them in archive 2 until that's full, then start 3 and so on. -- Ged UK  13:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I've checked both archives 1 and 2 and didn't see the missing threads. Are u sure they were moved? Looking at their brief histories, neither page has been updated by the bot. 172.162.132.23 (talk) 13:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, something weird happened. I've asked the bot owner to have a look at it and see where it went. The content is still in the history, so we can easily recover it. -- Ged UK  14:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I corrected the template problem that was pointed out on the bot page and manually archived the missing threads from the history. 172.133.110.134 (talk) 16:17, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Let's Change the Infection Table Layout Again.
I've seen more than five iterations to the formatting of the table that shows the number of cases. Would it be possible to decide on a column format and simply stick with it? Some of the changes are less than meaningful, like moving the totals from the bottom of the table to the top. Plus we've had data in three to four (and maybe more!) columns. --76.241.85.38 (talk) 10:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Plus, what's the difference between "probable" and "suspected" cases?? Isn't all probable cases suspected ones?? This is wikipedia, if you are editing it you must work with the group. eks (talk) 12:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, people are arguing about the layout of the table. I think the smaller font (how it is now) is easier to read, understand, and looks much nicer. If you'd like to further discuss the table, please see the talk page for the table, linked at the top of this talk page.  hmwith  τ   13:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Patient Zero
Edgar Hernandez, 5yo boy, contracted from Smithfield Farms (Smithfield Foods) pigfarm in Veracruz, Mexico (state), according to CNN, Sanjay Gupta. (aired 9am EDT 29 April 2009 CE) 76.66.202.139 (talk) 13:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This is already in the article. (Not his name, but information about the outbreak in La Gloria, where he is from.) Calliopejen1 (talk) 14:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It is speculation that he "contracted it from Smithfield." Dr. Sanjay Gupta reported on CNN from the scene that Smithfield regularly vaccinated and tested their swine, and none had the flu. Edison (talk) 14:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I already mentioned it in the discussion of the time line: That boy (in other sources said to be 4 years old, probably at the time of the illness) fell ill on 2nd April (check http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-fg-mexico-flu28-2009apr28,0,1701782.story). Therefore, the two confirmed cases in California at the end of March must be presenting the "patient zero" (so far). The other cases in La Gloria were "normal flu" (as it already says in the article). Please point this out.--201.153.40.28 (talk) 15:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * From the article I have seen it is not clear that he fell ill on April 2 or earlier in March. I removed the date from his mention in the article. For instance: "Patient zero in Mexico – the earliest known case of the mutant virus - is a five-year-old boy, Edgar Hernandez, who suffered and survived the flu in early March." which neither claims he is the global Patient Zero or that he fell ill on April 2. It must also be remembered that the locals in La Gloria are in a series of disputes both with the local pig farms and with the Mexican government over land and health issues. Rmhermen (talk) 18:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The first evidence of swine flu transmission was reported in September 2008 in the US state of Texas, involving a young boy who worked with pigs, says Laurie Garrett, Council on Foreign Relations of USA.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/19245/global_health_crisis.html?breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2Frecent http://eyugoslavia.com/general/28/obama-swine-flu-outbreak-cause-for-concern-not-alarm-227029/ http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2009/04/28/index.php?section=mundo&article=029n1mun http://www.elsemanario.com.mx/news/news_display.php?story_id=19308 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lmgg170 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Flying Pig Flu
""Flying pig flu" has been suggested as a more accurate description of the virus' genetic makeup."

Are you serious?? Is this vandalism?? Dvmedis (talk) 13:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's referenced. The reference is claiming that this isn't really swine flu: "the virus contains elements of human, swine and bird flu".  hmwith  τ   13:39, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I edited the article to clarify. Does it make more sense now?  hmwith  τ   13:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I have heard several people calling it Flying Pig Flu. They seemed to find the humor in it comforting. Perhaps this would lessed panic and allow cooler heads to prevail. Calling it swine flu is what made the Egyptians start slaughtering all of their swine. Their job would be a little harder if they were looking for those pesky Flying Pigs... 96.253.121.137 (talk) 15:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Naming, "North American influenza"
I removed "North American influenza" from the lead sentence. The reference for this name was an animal agriculture lobby group encouraging a change in name from "swine flu" due to possible harm to their interests. I have not read the name "North American influenza" used in any media outlets. We should only add a name here if it is commonly used - lobby group encouragement is not a good enough reason (it is not our job to promote the interests of lobby groups). There are good arguments as to why naming influenza outbreaks after countries or regions is as harmful as naming it after an animal. Adding a name to the lead sentence due to lobby group encouragement would mean that we should add "sea kittens" to the lead sentence of fish. If the situation changes and media outlets do begin to use a new name, we should add it to the lead sentence. --Oldak Quill 14:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)     EDIT: current mentions of "North American influenza" in media outlets is in relation to the naming of the flu (see http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&cf=all&ncl=1343364376), so we should only use it in this context. It would be a good idea to mention it in a section called "Name of the outbreak", but not yet in the lead sentence. --Oldak Quill 14:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that it if there is a name change, H1N1 influenza would be the best option. Someone has already tried to rename it, and the edit was discussed and reverted, per WP:COMMONNAME. However, if its "common name" changes, the article can be moved.  hmwith  τ   14:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Although H1N1 is a common influenza A virus type that is responsible for 50% of seasonal flu in humans, so "H1N1" would be misleading. This is a specific type of H1N1. "Swine flu" is, as you say, the common name, and is consistent with scientific naming convention (bird flu). --Oldak Quill 14:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

In the last section of the article, there is a description of the naming of the flu.

Some authorities object to calling the flu outbreak "swine flu". U.S. Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack expressed concerns that this would lead to the misconception that pork is unsafe for consumption.[136] Israeli deputy health minister Yakov Litzman proposed the name "Mexican flu" because Muslims and Jews consider pork to be unclean,[137] but the Israeli government retracted this proposal after Mexican complaints.[138] The World Organization for Animal Health has proposed the name "North American influenza",[139] while the European Commission uses "novel flu virus".[138] Medical terminology refers to the virus as "Influenza A (H1N1) virus, human".[138]

The WHO objected to renaming the disease, as "swine influenza" had been used since the beginning of the outbreak.[140] The Mexican government also objected to renaming the disease to "Mexican influenza".[138] The name "swine influenza" is consistent with scientific naming convention. According to The New York Times, "based on its genetic structure, the new virus is without question a type of swine influenza, derived originally from a strain that lived in pigs". [141]

I did not participate in any way to write the above text. Based on this text, which I assume is accurate, and not a joke, there are objections to swine flu, Mexican flu. North American flu would have the same objections as Mexican flu. Swine influenza would have the same objections as swine flu. Inflenza A (H1N1 virus), human would be a correct name but I suspect there will be objections. Nobody uses the Wikipedia term 2009 swine flu outbreak. Since Wikipedia cannot have original research, I will propose the title to Swine flu outbreak (2009) and others can discuss whether another title should be used. User F203 (talk) 15:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know if it's a formal WP rule, but articles tend to have the year then the event - like 2008 Mumbai attacks and 2003 Bam earthquake, not Mumbai attacks (2008) or Bam earthquake (2003). Equilibrium007 (talk) 15:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * From WP:NCNUM:

"For disasters (see WikiProject Disaster management), the recommended format is ' '. Examples: 2006 New York City plane crash, 1700 Cascadia earthquake. This is only a 'soft' recommendation, if no other more appropriate name is available. Counter-examples include Space Shuttle Challenger disaster, Pan Am Flight 103, Minoan eruption, Krakatoa (no separate article about its best known eruption), Cyclone 05B (1999) and Kyrill (storm)."
 * In other words, nobody knows... Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 10:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we should call it the "Bacon Wrapped Sausage Flu." :DBFritzen (talk) 12:28, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Attributed vs. Confirmed Deaths
Does "1 (1)" indicate one death total or two? This is unclear. --π! 14:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Better is to put a table where all figures appear separately (no number appears included in another one) t clear things up. The most important figures are the confirmed cases and deaths, from my point of view. That should be the ones that should appear very clearly, without causing confusion. --201.153.40.28 (talk) 15:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There's more to it than that, though. Does/should the attributed deaths figure include confirmed deaths? --π!  15:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that it shouldn't. To make it even clearer an * below the table could give the explanation that the figures are not accumulated. Just as an idea. Maybe the head of the table can be renamed to clear things up. For suggesting something, my English isn't that good. Any idea?--201.153.40.28 (talk) 15:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Epidemic Endemic etc.
Sorry if you view this as pendantic but the "demic" root refers only to people. The disease cannot be endemic in pigs. In livestock the term zootic should be used, as in enzootic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.241.102 (talk) 14:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The term "endemic" is used in the technical literature in precisely the way it is used here, and is applied to plants and animals, as well as viruses. --Una Smith (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Reorganization proposal
I think national efforts to prevent the spread of disease (travel restrictions, pork import bans, etc) should be merged into the prevention/treatment section because they are similar to the content that is already there. The cases by country section could be shifted to be a short summary of where and when cases were reported after the initial outbreak to give better chronological coverage. Thoughts? Calliopejen1 (talk) 14:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Source for N99+ respirator recommendation?
This is the first I've seen for a N99/N100 respirator recommendation. Most other sources I've read and seen indicate that an N95 is sufficient. While N95 is NOISH rated for 95% efficiency, that is under specific flow circumstances (85L/m I think, which is supposed to be breathing under heavy work loads), with a specific "external concentration", for all sized particles; the efficiency of an N95 respirator is often much higher than 95%. NeoteriX (talk) 15:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Hong Kong
Is there any really good reason why "Hong Kong" should be listed rather than "China" in the country column of the table of data? Hong Kong is not a country, it's just a specially-administered part of China. 65.213.77.129 (talk) 15:28, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) I think that it should remain Hong Kong.  Hong Kong is very different from China.  You need a separate passport to get in and out.  And although the Chinese government exerts a lot of influence over Hong Kong it still has a lot of autonomy.  And more importantly, an outbreak in Hong Kong means something very different than an outbreak in China.  Hong Kong has more health infrastructure and is much more contained.  China, on the other hand, is very crowded and has a lower overall level of health care.  I think if we put that China has a suspected case it would mean something very different than Hong Kong Hdstubbs (talk) 15:39, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Google map link removal
Where are the maps gone now? The external maps used to be linked underneath the orange/red/dark red map. But now there is only one link in the 'external links' section. The other map link has been removed. Unfortunately, it was the other map that is far superior in its depiction as well as being up to date. - However I do not recall the url for that map any longer, it was the second google map that used pins with numbers of deaths indicated per region. --Lexxus2010 (talk) 03:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed them because they were maintained by random people without credentials. (And are therefore unreliable, even if they've been doing a pretty good job so far.) What do other people think? Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * WE ARE random people without credentials! What makes us any better than them? I do not propose to put the map on the page as that would be a violation of WP:NOR, but a link would not be a problem. I also invoke WP:IAR. I propose a vote.Drew R. Smith (talk) 01:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Are we talking about the link to ?


 * Yes. According to the linked news article | here Dr. Henry Niman is the researcher responsible for the map. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 01:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

In favor of keeping link to google map

 * 1) Drew R. Smith (talk) 01:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) PigFlu Oink (talk) 01:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) invenio t c 01:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) Angel Thane (talk) 02:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) Raysonho (talk) 06:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) magnius (talk) 09:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 7) Seems like the perfect application of WP:IAR. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 10:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 8) chandler ··· 10:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 9) Wine Guy   Talk  16:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC) While the google map obviously should not be used as a reference, or appear in the main article, I see absolutely no problem linking to it.
 * 10) --Saab 1989 (talk) 18:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC) The map help provide accurate locations of recent outbreaks

Opposed
One of the Google Maps is maintained by a guy called Henry Niman who is well known to have done exaggerated and false claims in previous epidemics. Just google it. The fact that has been cited in the last days by thousands of web pages and blogs does not mean that the map is 100% correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.175.8.13 (talk) 09:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Wrong number of infected
Hello I am from Iceland and wiki said that there are 2 people in Iceland infected but it has just been diagnosed as negative. http://visir.is/article/20090429/FRETTIR01/727631714/-1 here is a link about it but of course you cant understand it :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.144.95.113 (talk) 15:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * 2009 swine flu outbreak → Swine flu outbreak (2009) — Looking at many reliable sources, there are none that use the Wikipedia title. Creating a non-standard title violates Wikipedia rules against original research.  There is already a worldwide discussion (non-Wikipedian discussion) about naming which is described at the end of the Wikipedia article. --User F203 (talk) 15:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree, I will remove the template as per WP:NCCN. When it is declared a pandemic we can rename it then. --Pontificalibus (talk) 18:29, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * One problem with that is having a term in brackets is used for dab purposes meaning that there is another article or articles with the same name. In short, the proposed title implies that there is a seperate article about a swine flu outbreak in a previous year which there is not.--76.65.143.98 (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comment. Copying United States Presidential Election, 2008, a more appropriate title that doesn't violate OR would be Swine flu outbreak, 2008 User F203 (talk) 15:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I read recently that both conventions are correct, but that the year-event convention was becoming the de facto standard. Talk:2008_Channel_Tunnel_fire. It's not very recent, so it may have changed. 195.217.138.194 (talk) 16:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Rename to 2009 H1N1 Flu Outbreak
Nintendo 07 (talk) 21:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It is clear that pigs only play one part in this disease, and their place in the transmission chain is no longer a threat. Humans are now primarily transmitting this disease, and thus a normal flu name would benefit Wikipedia's community better. In addition, a governmental agency (USDA) requests that it be referred to this way. Wikipedia should stand for official sources, and not what independent media stations are saying.
 * Is there a name you are suggesting? Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 21:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Most sources call it "swine flu", so we should use that per WP:UCN. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * However, many people are confused as to whether pork spreads this disease. It does not, according to multiple sources. If Wikipedia clears this confusion by changing its article name, then its community will benefit. In addition, swine flu is a misnomer because this strain contains avian, human, and swine components. Nintendo 07 (talk) 21:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * So? It's the name it is commonly known as which is the most important thing here.  What one government agency (that I for one have never even heard of) says is unimportant in this case.  GARDEN  21:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The WHO and the CDC continue to refer to it as Swine Influenza (Flu). Those are the most official sources there are for this. Wine Guy   Talk  21:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * We reflect the sources. . .why would we care about what the USDA wants to call it? It's NPOV that's reflected here, not the view(s) or agenda of a gov't agency.  Move back to original title unless a case can be made that this new name is more common (unlikely in my view).  R. Baley (talk) 21:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * To avoid confusion in this thread, the article is currently at 2009 swine flu outbreak. GARDEN  21:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * according to an AP article, Israel claims the name is offensive to jews and muslims and should be changed to Mexican flu (one can imagine the people of Mexico would be none too pleased with that!) for better or worse, I think it should remain with the name it started with. sherpajohn (talk) 21:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * How silly. Nobody gets the right to objects to the use of a /word/ like swine.  Nobody is making them eat bacon.  65.60.200.186 (talk) 22:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The best common name for this is disease is "Mexican flu". People have named earlier epidemics of the influenza virus as "Spanish flu", "Asian flu" and "Hong Kong flu, based on the area in which they may have (but not necessarily did) first appeared. Wikipedia should therefore use the name "Mexican flu" for the current epidemic.Corker1 (talk) 21:34, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The recent Avien Flu outbreak would be a counterexample to that. aremisasling (talk) 21:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Is anyone actually calling it that? We're not prescriptive here; we should use the name being used. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Every source I've seen so far including several in other languages, calls it swine flu. It's common to the point of regular translation. aremisasling (talk) 21:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "Swine flu" may not be the usual name for the disease much longer. Farmers are complaining that the name may hurt their businesses. Corker1 (talk) 22:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As this situation is rapidly developing, I revise my earlier suggestion. I propose not to immediately change the article's name, but instead to wait 48 hours and see what is happening then. Nintendo 07 (talk) 22:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The Associated Press article that I cited above contains the following information: "We're discussing, is there a better way to describe this that would not lead to inappropriate actions on people's part?" said Dr. Richard Besser, acting director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "In the public, we've been seeing a fair amount of misconception ... and that's not helpful." The European Union's health commissioner has suggested the virus be renamed "novel flu."Corker1 (talk) 22:44, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

It might be worth including a section on the virus's name somewhere in the article. I've seen a number of news stories about proposals to change it. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC) The LA Times is reporting (via Reuters) that Israel is now going to call this the "Mexico Flu". I'm thinking that this what we should be calling it from now on. All previous flu outbreaks have been referred to from where the outbreak began (think Spanish Flu, Hong Kong Flu, etc.) It's only a matter of time (I think) before the major media outlets call it this, and it also falls more in line with how these flu outbreaks have been handled in the past. Pharmaediting11 (talk) 23:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that, as long as the media is still using the name "swine flu", it's what we need to go with. Until sources are more consistently using the term "Mexico flu", it doesn't seem practical to use it in this article. You may very well be right that the name will be changing soon, but we should wait until we cross that bridge. DreamHaze (talk) 00:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I removed "North American influenza" from the lead sentence. The reference for this name was an animal agriculture lobby group encouraging a change in name from "swine flu" due to possible harm to their interests. I have not read the name "North American influenza" used in any media outlets. We should only add a name here if it is commonly used - lobby group encouragement is not a good enough reason (it is not our job to promote the interests of lobby groups). There are good arguments as to why naming influenza outbreaks after countries or regions is as harmful as naming it after an animal. Adding a name to the lead sentence due to lobby group encouragement would mean that we should add "sea kittens" to the lead sentence of fish. If the situation changes and media outlets do begin to use a new name, we should add it to the lead sentence. --Oldak Quill 14:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)     EDIT: current mentions of "North American influenza" in media outlets is in relation to the naming of the flu (see http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&cf=all&ncl=1343364376), so we should only use it in this context. It would be a good idea to mention it in a section called "Name of the outbreak", but not yet in the lead sentence. --Oldak Quill 14:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that it if there is a name change, H1N1 influenza would be the best option. Someone has already tried to rename it, and the edit was discussed and reverted, per WP:COMMONNAME. However, if its "common name" changes, the article can be moved.  hmwith  τ   14:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Although H1N1 is a common influenza A virus type that is responsible for 50% of seasonal flu in humans, so "H1N1" would be misleading. This is a specific type of H1N1. "Swine flu" is, as you say, the common name, and is consistent with scientific naming convention (bird flu). --Oldak Quill 14:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I support a move. "2009 H1N1 flu outbreak" would be correct. --bender235 (talk) 10:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Very much against, would be a clear break of common name. Everyone knows what Swine flu is, but what is H1N1? naa. chandler ··· 10:40, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

"swine flu" is obviously wrong
Is the english wikipedia the last one which changes the lemma? It's not a swine flu, because it has genes from swine, bird and human influenza. It isn't even proven if the virus can infect swines. --Micha L. Rieser (talk) 00:39, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Our naming conventions say to use the "common name" for things. Right now, that is how it is commonly known.  hmwith  τ   00:44, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Common names not necessarily are the most used names in the media. Because the most media simply multiply terms without reflecting. --Micha L. Rieser (talk) 01:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Let us all take the enlightend view then pride ourselves in our enlightenment... --PigFlu Oink (talk) 01:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * CNNm, yahoo, google, every other news, the government, all call it swine flu. I think thats the media adopted common name...--Jakezing (Your King (talk) 02:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "Common names" for breaking news stories often change, especially if the pork industry threatens news media and politicians with withdrawal of advertising dollars ("the other white meat") and "campaign contributions. Israeli government officials have objected to calling it "swine" flu in favor of "Mexican flu" to which Mexico objected. Scientific nomenclature like H1N1 makes more sense, but let's see what the news media and health organizations call it over the next few days. Certainly it is not exclusively swine flu, and there are no reports of infected swine so far. Edison (talk) 03:44, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. The term "swine flu" might be extensively used by the media, but yet it is scientifically wrong. --bender235 (talk) 10:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the failure is on all sides perhaps it would be best to call it something neutral e.g. Human Avian Swine Influenza or H.A.S.I. 80.254.147.36 (talk) 11:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No. Swine Flu is the current media term, so swine flu it is. magnius (talk) 11:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As I gather, the virus contains 4 different strands of influenza, two of which originating in pigs. What's the point in renaming it "XYZ123"? Every time one would read about it, it would say: "The influenza XYZ123 (formerly know as "pig" influenza". This hardly seems worthwhile

--88.147.75.244 (talk) 18:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC) ECDC is calling it: "the Novel Influenza A/H1N1 Strain." This isn't really just Swine Flu, I think we all know that now. But this seems a bit more accurate, plus, in 1337 it would read: "Heinie." (Just some brevity, let it go.) BFritzen (talk) 02:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree calling it swine flu is wrong. The flu virus consists of bird, pig and human properties.  The World Health Organization recently announced it will would stop using the term "swine flu" to avoid confusion over the danger posed by pigs. They will be using the technical scientific name H1N1 influenza A. I think we should just call it 2009 H1N1 outbreak.Roman888 (talk) 01:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Move page?
Should I move the page to "2009 H1N1 outbreak"? According to NBC Nightly News, the government is starting to call it the "H1N1". --Goldblattster (talk) 01:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Better to wait till more sources are calling it H1N1. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 01:19, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This discussion has happend before; though the outcome may change. The government (Janet Napoletano, DHS secretary that has been doing most of the Press Confrenses on the outbreak) also refers to terrorism as 'man caused disasters', and the Global War on Terror as 'Overseas Contingency Operations'. I highly doubt the WP communitiy has the consensus to follow such name changes. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 01:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Someone already moved it (see discussion on WP:AN). Consensus was to move the article back and move protect it.  hmwith  τ   01:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Is there a way to see the Move History of an article? I remember when it was the 2009 North America Swine Flu. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 01:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Logs showing two recent moves:  -- Zigger  &laquo;&ordm;&raquo; 02:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, see 2 sections above this one.   hmwith  τ   01:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. Thank you for the feedback. I will not move it. I realized that so far, the US is litterly the only country that is calling it the H1N1 2009 outbreak. :-) --Goldblattster (talk) 02:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * H1N1 causes about 50% of seasonal flu, so there have been dozens of "H1N1 outbreaks" this year... This outbreak is different because it is a novel form of H1N1 containing genes from pigs, birds and humans. Calling the article "2009 H1N1 outbreak" or any variant thereof would be incorrect and misleading. The EU has been using the term "novel flu virus", but that will get old very quickly. H1N1 would be more misleading than "swine flu", because "swine flu" is a distinct marker and is consistent with previous novel flu virus namings such as "bird flu". I suppose a more accurate name would be something like "H1N1 swine-avian flu outbreak", but this might mistakenly associate this virus with the H5N1 avian flu virus. --Oldak Quill 16:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The World Health Organization recently announced it will would stop using the term "swine flu" to avoid confusion over the danger posed by pigs. They will be using the technical scientific name H1N1 influenza A.  I think we should just call it 2009 H1N1 outbreak.Roman888 Roman888 01:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Requested move
In the last section of the article, there is a description of the naming of the flu.

Some authorities object to calling the flu outbreak "swine flu". U.S. Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack expressed concerns that this would lead to the misconception that pork is unsafe for consumption.[136] Israeli deputy health minister Yakov Litzman proposed the name "Mexican flu" because Muslims and Jews consider pork to be unclean,[137] but the Israeli government retracted this proposal after Mexican complaints.[138] The World Organization for Animal Health has proposed the name "North American influenza",[139] while the European Commission uses "novel flu virus".[138] Medical terminology refers to the virus as "Influenza A (H1N1) virus, human".[138]

The WHO objected to renaming the disease, as "swine influenza" had been used since the beginning of the outbreak.[140] The Mexican government also objected to renaming the disease to "Mexican influenza".[138] The name "swine influenza" is consistent with scientific naming convention. According to The New York Times, "based on its genetic structure, the new virus is without question a type of swine influenza, derived originally from a strain that lived in pigs". [141]

I did not participate in any way to write the above text. Based on this text, which I assume is accurate, and not a joke, there are objections to swine flu, Mexican flu. North American flu would have the same objections as Mexican flu. Swine influenza would have the same objections as swine flu. Inflenza A (H1N1 virus), human would be a correct name but I suspect there will be objections. Nobody uses the Wikipedia term 2009 swine flu outbreak. Since Wikipedia cannot have original research, I will change the title to Swine flu outbreak (2009) and others can discuss whether another title should be used. User F203 (talk) 15:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Please do not move the page until you have gained consensus. Oren0 (talk) 17:29, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

POSSIBLE TITLES
 * Swine flu outbreak (2009)
 * 1) Support per above. User F203 (talk) 15:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Mexican flu (2009)


 * Influenza A (H1N1 virus), human, 2009


 * Swine flu emergency (2009)


 * North American flu (2009)


 * Oppose any move at this time
 * 1) "2009 swine flu outbreak" is not a name.  "Swine flu outbreak" is the name, "2009" just describes it.  Using parenthetical disambiguation like "(2009)" is generally reserved for situations where there are more than one. Oren0 (talk) 17:29, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) Leave the name "2009 swine flu outbreak" alone and move on, at least for now. This is the common name. It's our task to report it, not change it.Nosimplehiway (talk) 17:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Adding to my own comment... it seems today that several new, more politically correct names, which do not offend the pork industry, such as "novel influenza", "H1N1", "2009 Pandemic Flu" and others have appeared. For those who want to change the name now, I suggest wait a week or so. Something more precise will catch on in the public consciousness. Nosimplehiway (talk) 21:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Adding again... there definitely seems to be a shift afoot in the name away from swine flu. I am keeping my vote at maintaining the status quo until a new common name emerges fully so that we don't need to go through the renaming thing again, but I expect it will within a few days.Nosimplehiway (talk) 11:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) The common name currently used in the majority of sources is "swine flu." The policy is to use the common name, whether or not it's the best name. The convention on Wikipedia appears to be to put the year before the name, rather than to put it in parentheses after it - for instance, we have 2008 Mumbai attacks and not Mumbai attacks (2008), and 2003 Bam earthquake and not Bam earthquake (2003). So "2009 swine flu outbreak" is the title best conforming to convention. Equilibrium007 (talk) 19:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * My suggestion was just that, a suggestion, and merely a discussion, not a fight. So feel free to discuss it more.  Equilibrium007's common is not the full story.  See United States presidential election, 2008 and UEFA Euro 2008.  So I stand correctly and don't endorse Swine flu outbreak (2008) but think that Swine flu outbreak, 2008 follows the convention of not creating original research and wikipedia created titles but using the title used by reliable sources. User F203 (talk) 15:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) Everyone knows it as "swine flu" - I read an article this morning where the Israeli government requested that it be renamed "Mexican flu" as references to swine upset Jews and Muslims (though I'm sure Mexicans wouldn't be that happy with the new name...), but nonetheless, "swine flu" is the common name. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 10:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) Give it time. World War I took about twenty years to get its name right. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 15:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) This is what everybody calls it at the moment. Spanish flu had very little to do with Spain, but it remains called this way. 195.217.138.194 (talk) 16:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Question about confirmed deaths
What is the criteria being used to determine "confirmed deaths" ? Confirmed by what criteria, and confirmed by what organization(s)? Furthermore if the organization in charge of "confirming" deaths has a hierarchy within it that enables a single person or sub group within the organization to control the release of data then that is not an acceptable criteria in itself. Confirmed deaths should require more than one source. Ideally 3-4 sources. Am I wrong? 99.254.216.48 (talk) 16:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think using WHO published figures is fine. RaseaC (talk) 16:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think alot of things, but that does not make them correct. If we are using WHO as an acceptable source for confirmed deaths than we ought to allow the use of other agencies in confirming deaths. Claiming data of which the sole discretion of death confirmation resides within a single entity is a gross misrepresentation of good science and accurate information. 99.254.216.48 (talk) 16:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't try and be funny, you're not good at it. If we have a reliable source (such as a UN agency) then it's sufficient, especially as the WHO is a global agency and this is a global matter. When information is rapidly changing like this it is inevitable that if you take a hand full of government agencies (all in their own right reliable sources) you may very well get a hand full of different responses, there is no way we can prevent this. Picking one source and sticking to it is the way forward, not listing a bunch of numbers, all of which could be wrong, and all of which are changing rapidly. RaseaC (talk) 16:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I would rather see the article have multiple sources and be somewhat wrong rather than relying on a single organization (which is heavily biased) and have the information be totally wrong. Yogiudo (talk) 16:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Multiple sources is fine, multiple figures is stupid. RaseaC (talk) 16:35, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * "Confirmed" should mean "tested positive for this novel strain of flu", regardless of the source of that bit of information. --Pontificalibus (talk) 16:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

As long as it's a reliable source that's fine. RaseaC (talk) 16:44, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Article Naming Calmness
I would like to suggest that we all take a deep breath and pause. The scientific community, the media and govenrment agencies are hashing out what to call this flu even as it develops. It is a moving target we are not going to hit. We have no idea what the common name will eventually be and it is not our job to decide that name, only report it. The current name "swine flu" is not egregiously wrong, is a commonly recognised name for the disease and commonly searched for on Google (6,550,000 results vs 813,000 for H1N1). Most wikipedia articles use the year at the start of the article name. And this is at least an outbreak, if not worse. So, I would like to move that we temporarily lock the name at it's current status ("2009 swine flu outbreak")and then discuss it again in 1 week. That should hopefully give enough time for a common name to coalesce in the public consciousness. We are spending a lot of time and energy arguing over what the article should be called rather than improving the actual article. Nosimplehiway (talk) 16:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with protecting for a week, but not with another naming thread!! RaseaC (talk) 16:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hopefully it will be declared a pandemic soon so we can rename it 2009 Influenza pandemic or whatever and be done with it :-) --Pontificalibus (talk) 16:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hopefully, yeah, though some diseases take a long time to settle on a name, like "Sweating Sickness"/"þe English Sweate"/"sudor anglicus". That still has multiple names and that was in the 15th century! Nosimplehiway (talk) 17:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Typographical error
On the Prior influenza season, just after source 59 it reads "The improvement was attributed ,in part" not "The improvement was attributed, in part", might want to fix that.--Launchballer (talk) 16:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅RaseaC (talk) 16:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * --Launchballer (talk) 15:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Patient zero
The first evidence of swine flu transmission was reported in September in the US state of Texas, involving a young boy who worked with pigs, said Laurie Garrett at the Council on Foreign Relations.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/19245/global_health_crisis.html?breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2Frecent http://eyugoslavia.com/general/28/obama-swine-flu-outbreak-cause-for-concern-not-alarm-227029/ http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2009/04/28/index.php?section=mundo&article=029n1mun http://www.elsemanario.com.mx/news/news_display.php?story_id=19308 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lmgg170 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Can anyone find a source (eg, CDC, Texas state surveillance program) that documents this September case in Texas? In particular, documentation that this case involved this same strain of swine flu?  --Una Smith (talk) 17:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Beware Red Herrings! Farm workers often catch mild and short term flu from livestock. That is not a widespread or even rare occurance. The effect is often limited to a few persons, most of whom never even notice they're ill or mistake the cause (must have been bad chili?). It is the changing of that flu into "human to human" transmission that is the flashpoint for what we have now. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 18:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The four articles do mention that particular kind of virus, for the human-to-human transmission at least for the two children in California and for the one in Texas in mid-March; that is still earlier than 2nd April for Edgar Hernández Hernández (the linked article I put here says so: "He contracted the disease on April 2"). At least, Edgar is not "patient zero", for sure.--201.153.40.28 (talk) 21:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

U.S. Death is misleading. Was Mexican family visiting U.S.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/health/30flu.html?ref=health. Don't know if we should do anything about it. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 16:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the table should give a half point to the U.S. row and a half point to the Mexican row. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 18:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not að question of which country issued the person's passport, but rather it's their location that matters as far as the spread of the disease is concerned — which is what the table is supposed to be tracking, right? This person undeniably died in the U.S., their nationality is irrelevant. --Cessator (talk) 18:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, they crossed the border to seek medical attention, according to sources. Only deaths have been Mexican nationals. Might be worthy of mention.--173.28.159.111 (talk) 18:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, what the article should say is that the only deaths have (so far anyway) been of those who caught the disease in Mexico — that might matter, but their nationality does not. In any case this death occurred in the U.S. and that should not be removed from the table. --Cessator (talk) 18:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Me like how the NY times refers to 'visting'; apparently we don't have illegal immigrants flooding our schools and hospitals: we're just a very popular toruist destination. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 18:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The NY Times is doing the appropriate thing and not speculating as to why the family was there and whether the family was there legally or not. The presecence of other illegal immigrants doesn't make all Mexicans in the US illegal immigrants Nil Einne (talk) 23:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The NY Times has never done the "appropriate thing". They have ran, almost monthly, and article about lack of jobs, which invariably leads in some way to mexicans taking up the jobs. Usually in a very delicate manner, but they still do it.Drew R. Smith (talk) 01:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Please don't start OT discussions here. The NY Times did the appropriate thing in this case which was describe the family with the best information available rather then make assumptions. Whether or not they are doing the right thing with stories about jobs is irrelevant and completely OT. Your personal feelings about Mexicans and the NYT are unwelcome and uncalled for. (I'm somewhat doubtful that Mexican's job seeking behaviour is influenced by the NYT or heck that most Mexicans even read the NYT. Believe it or not, Mexicans are not as stupid as you seem to think and they don't need the NYT to tell them if there are job available in the US) Nil Einne (talk) 04:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * If someone caught it travelling through Mexico, the U.S. and Canada, then dies in a fourth country, it gets credited to the country where they died. Not through speculation as to where they caught it. Edison (talk) 23:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Regardless, going into someone else's house and dying is a pretty rude thing to do. Any University Economics proferssor will tell you this one death has easily cost the Texas economy alone hundreds of millions of dollars in trade and tourism. That damage extends in every level of the economy from people not going out shopping to children staying home from school: which due to the DOE per-child/per-schoolday funding method is costing school districts money they simply don't have. Everyone agrees that deaths will occur due to this outbreak, but this one family has pushed the window up, making the overall costs significatly higher. Time will only tell by how much. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 04:42, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That is all completely irrelevant. Also I doubt that the people involved went to the United States to die Nil Einne (talk) 06:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem with calling it a US death is what would Mexico think? If one of your countries citizens dies in another country while visiting, then do you want to refer to them as a foreigner? X clamation point  14:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The list is currently defined by geography, not nationality. chandler ··· 14:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Cytokine Storm Speculation
I've removed instances in which this article has grossly exaggerated information from its sources to indicate that the phenomenon known as a cytokine storm may be causing some of the deaths in Mexico. So far, the CDC and WHO have released no information indicating that a cytokine storm may be taking place in A/California/07/2009 (H1N1) patients or patients with related viruses, so there is absolutely no basis for this theory. All sourcing on it was based on speculation from the media or from sources with no experience on this virus. While cytokine storms are theoretically possible, there is no evidence that they do occur in this virus strain, so they are not factual symptoms. OcciMoron (talk) 17:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Since this has been extensively speculated on in the media, we do need to cover this, if only to help provide some real facts on the point. Can you provide some authoritative sources to balance the media speculations? Tim Vickers (talk) 17:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem with providing an authoritative source on this issue is that it is similar to providing an authoritative source to show that sheep do not lay eggs; since they don't, scientific and medical authorities have not recently published a paper debunking this "theory." Similarly since there is no evidence of a cytokine storm phenomenon with this virus, the best support is the lack of support.  I can offer you limited information from the CDC--

"The symptoms of swine flu in people are expected to be similar to the symptoms of regular human seasonal influenza and include fever, lethargy, lack of appetite and coughing. Some people with swine flu also have reported runny nose, sore throat, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea." from As well as-- " Clinical Findings

Patients with uncomplicated disease due to confirmed swine-origin influenza A (H1N1) virus infection have experienced fever, headache, upper respiratory tract symptoms (cough, sore throat, rhinorrhea), myalgia, fatigue, vomiting, or diarrhea. Complications

There is insufficient information to date about clinical complications of this variant of swine-origin influenza A (H1N1) virus infection. Among persons infected with previous variants of swine influenza virus, clinical syndromes have ranged from mild respiratory illness, to lower respiratory tract illness, dehydration, or pneumonia. Deaths caused by previous variants of swine influenza have occasionally occurred. Although data on the spectrum of illness is not yet available for this new variant of swine-origin influenza A(H1N1), clinicians should expect complications to be similar to seasonal influenza: exacerbation of underlying chronic medical conditions, upper respiratory tract disease (sinusitis, otitis media, croup) lower respiratory tract disease (pneumonia, bronchiolitis, status asthmaticus), cardiac (myocarditis, pericarditis), musculoskeletal (myositis, rhabdomyolysis), neurologic (acute and post-infectious encephalopathy, encephalitis, febrile seizures, status epilepticus), toxic shock syndrome, and secondary bacterial pneumonia with or without sepsis." from

As you can see, the CDC expects symptoms to be no different from normal seasonal influenza, and hence, no cytokine storm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OcciMoron (talk • contribs) 17:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems reasonable, how about saying something such as "Some media sources have speculated that the swine flu might produce a cytokine storm, and be unusually lethal to healthy adults, however the CDC has stated that the symptoms reported so far from this strain do not appear to differ from normal seasonal influenza." Tim Vickers (talk) 17:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm primarily concerned about providing information that will needlessly worry people that this virus is 1918 Flu returned, because it is distinctly not that. A better phrasing would probably be something like "The CDC has indicated that symptoms reported from this strain so far are similar to those of normal seasonal flu, and so are relatively mild in comparison to historic pandemics.  While some media outlets have speculated that this virus could cause a cytokine storm in patients, there is no medical evidence for this hypothesis."OcciMoron (talk) 17:47, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The evidence for cytokine storm are the reported high proprtion of deaths in the 20-45 age group, which is not found in seasonal flu and is indicative of a cytokine storm effect as seen with other respiratory disease outbreaks such as SRAS and the 1918 pandemic. There are plenty of sources for this e.g. Howard Markel, a physician and director of the Center for the History of Medicine at the University of Michigan: "It's a fairly novel strain, and the deaths could be from healthy people who have a healthy, robust immune system that overreacts. That could result in a 'cytokine storm' in which the body secretes too many chemicals as it tries to kill offending microorganisms."  --Pontificalibus (talk) 17:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's important to recognize that "could result in cytokine storm" does not mean "does result in cytokine storm" and there are many reasons why the data from Mexico may be distorted; high pollution in Mexico City, extremely high population density, inaccurate reporting, etc. Until we know more, speculating about the progression of the virus will just proliferate rumours.  Before you post something, you have to remember that there is a huge difference between the words "could be" and the word "is."  "Could be" is speculation.  "is" is fact.OcciMoron (talk) 18:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added a few sentences discussing this idea to the virulence section. I think we do need to note this, since as you say Pontificalibus, lots of people are discussing it. However, we must be careful to stick to what the most reliable sources say not not generate undue concern. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Your edit is good and well-sourced; nicely done. OcciMoron (talk) 18:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Swine flu in South Africa
2 Confirmed cases of swine flu in South Africa. The infected individuals were given medication and sent home. Should this be allowed in the face of a pandemic on the horizon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjdjeva (talk • contribs) 17:28, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a source that this was confirmed? Hdstubbs (talk) 17:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Not to sound alarmist, but, oh no! With the large number of AIDS victims there.... A confirmation please. BFritzen (talk) 17:39, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * These are not confirmed, and at least one of the two never will be because according to the source "The specimen taken from her was not stored appropriately, which meant a laboratory assessment to confirm the case could not be done." Wine Guy   Talk  18:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Alaska included as confirmed death?
All of the infections in the United States occurred in the continental US.

In the interest of accurately conveying information visually, should we include Alaska as being marked black? It is so geographically separated that in the sense of tracking a flu pandemic, I think it should stand on its own. I know that when I first saw the map, I thought that it meant there WAS a case specifically in Alaska. I pulled up the CDC data and see that there isn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndyHuston (talk • contribs) 17:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Alaska is part of the U.S. If the coloring is by country, it should be colored. Otherwise, there has been no death in Illinois so that shouldn't be colored, etc. Further, there has been no death in Dallas or Amarillo so why should those cities be colored, etc. Rmhermen (talk) 18:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

same for Hawaii. I appreciate this is by "country", but with very large countries this can be rather misleading. Lovingly painting every Arctic island of Canada for "confirmed cases" seems a bit beside the point. Perhaps it would be better to work with circles with sizes proportional to the number of cases. Such an approach would convey an actual idea of the impact of the swine flu, as opposed to the incidential point of "areas of affected countries". --dab (𒁳) 18:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that would be too much trouble to keep updated considering all the new cases constantly being found and how quickly it's spreading not just from country to country, but within each individual country. That might be something to work on after this whole thing is over with when it doesn't have to be updated every hour. The whole idea of these sorts of maps is to show a very general idea of where this thing has spread to with a quick glance, and anyone who does want a detailed account can just look at the table in the article. Sbw01f (talk) 18:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This is an example of how things work in the world sometimes. A Mexican family crosses the border and a child dies, then nations around the world ban all American pork (though some have limited the bans just to confirmed states) it doesn't matter how far you are from Houston or that eating pork doesn't expose you to the disease... Its reflective of a natural human bias to classify, a bias to sensationalise, and an adversion to death. While WP shouldn't necessarily engage in such behaviour, were laregly powerless to stopping it. --PigFlu Oink (talk) 18:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not practical to break out each state seperately, here, though if anyone wants to do such a map for the US page, search "naoutl" in Google Image and you'll find some nice blank outline maps of the US and Canada to use as a template. In the meantime, Alaska is part of the US despite it's being an exclave. The Isle of Wight, Mykonos, Baffin Island and Tasmania don't get their own color.Nosimplehiway (talk) 21:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Part of the reason is that the .svg file is set up in an elaborate fashion to be modified with a text editor by adding two-letter country codes. Modifying it with Inkscape has been less than recommended.  Personally, I think it is easier to find countries by sight than to research obscure country codes, but until that decision is made it is not possible to modify Alaska independently of the continental U.S. Mike Serfas (talk) 00:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If nobody has any objections, I would be willing to do a more indepth map. I would use a simple map outline of the world, and large counrties would be divided into pre-existing political borders(e.g. In the us, it would be by state, or possibly time zone). As pig said before, Stalin may not like the new map, but it would serve better as an information tool. It would be simple to update. Merely copy, paste into paint, fill in said area, and repost.Drew R. Smith (talk) 01:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * There is the North American map... (File:H1N1 North America Map.svg) but if you did that to the world, every first-level subnational division in the world would need to be included. On the other hand, it could be included in the article, for a greater breakdown by continent. It's not all that North Americ-y since it includes Hawaii, and excludes Greenland... 76.66.202.139 (talk) 04:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Very nicely done. What I was hoping to do is incorporate breakdowns of only the three largest countries onto the world map. If any can do a map like that for russia and china and then incorporate them into the world map we'd be all set to go.Drew R. Smith (talk) 05:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

We can go for rigid rules or common sense. Breaking the US by states tends to be US centric and may be better for the US article. However, Alaska is so big and separated that it could be colored separately. What would we do if East and West Pakistan still existed as one country? So far apart that coloring them separately might make sense. User F203 (talk) 15:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

An opening paragraph focus to address immediate personal concerns, rather than history and technical details?
Hi. The current article is hugely impressive, not the least due to it's apparently having evolved so far in only 4 days. From looking at the change history, it's pretty clear that contributors are making serious efforts to improve the document. So I view my suggestion as minor, but think it could be helpful: The thrust of the article, now, is primarily historical and technical, with the opening immediately jumping into things like origins.

I suggest having the opening paragraph serve to give a casual, non-technical reader some insight about this in lay terms, to respond to lay concerns.

For example, the article does not make clear that the disease is infectious rather than contagious. Also, the fact that the global display of symptoms (and individual course of the disease) is apparently globally on a par with typical flus, probably would be enormously helpful.

I'm specifically not offering candidate text because I simply don't know enough to be confident in anything I'd write.

In any event, folks, many thanks to those contributing to the article.

/d —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davecrocker (talk • contribs) 18:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The lead section in an article should be a summary of what is in the article (see WP:Lead section). However, if the wording is too technical, we can work to make it more understandable to the average reader (per WP:Make technical articles accessible).  hmwith  τ   20:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello again. The opening is looking better, thanks. On further reflection, I suggest modifying it a bit more, along the lines of --

"''The 2009 swine flu outbreak is an epidemic that began in April 2009 with a new strain of influenza virus. It is also called Mexican flu,[52] swine-origin influenza,[53] North American influenza,[54] and 2009 H1N1 flu.[52] Within days of being identified, isolated cases (and suspected cases) were identified elsewhere in Mexico, the U.S., and several other Northern Hemisphere countries. The WHO and CDC are concerned that this outbreak may become a pandemic; however, as of 29 April, WHO is not advising restriction of regular travel or closing any borders"[14]  U.S. and European cases are, so far, primarily mild while the Mexican cases have led to multiple deaths. Whereas most influenza strains affect the elderly and young children worst, this strain has primarily caused deaths in people between the ages of 25 and 50.''

It takes text almost exclusively from elsewhere in the article, and focuses primarily on the facts and fears a non-technical reader is going to want to see information about.

Davecrocker (talk) 15:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)