Talk:2009 swine flu pandemic by country/Archive 2

Ukraine
There are no confirmed cases in Ukraine. See http://www.rbc.ua/rus/newsline/2009/06/01/550048.shtml Solar Apex (talk) 13:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Thailand
A seperate Thailand article should be created. The main article is getting far too large and unruly.Johnpacklambert (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * As you're a logged in user, you can do the first part... create 2009 swine flu outbreak in Thailand, copy all the stuff over, and then leave a stub here (probably keep the picture here also). And add a to the top of the section here. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 06:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've done the split. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 00:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You forgot to leave a summary. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 04:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

More articles
I think that this article is getting too long, and i think it would be better if we start creating new articles about each country, instead of adding more information at each section. There are 18 articles for 18 different countries in the Spanish Wikipedia, like Germany, South Korea, Chile, Panama, Peru etc, and maybe some one can translate those articles, at least the countries with the most cases into English. --Vrysxy! (talk) 06:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that's too much. Only when the sections get too long should they have breakout articles created. If you do do what you suggest, they'll very likely rapidly be sent to AfD for deletion and get deleted. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 07:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's just a suggestion, there are more irrelevant articles on this wikipedia than any other, i dont see what would be the problem. --Vrysxy! (talk) 09:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There are more editors on this Wikipedia than the others, and this one has existed longer. But the newest articles get deleted more quickly when they're irrelevant. Quite alot of breakout articles end up being nominated for deletion at WP:AFD. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 15:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I will note that all the breakout articles on the French Wikipedia are up for deletion. The one breakout article on the Japanese (on Japan) is suspended and up for remerging into the main article. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 03:54, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it is because those articles are no longer updated it, you can see the articles on the Spanish wikipedia, and they are up to date, it might be the fact that is the wikipedia with the most users after the English Wiki (with over a million ). --Vrysxy! (talk) 07:54, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The French Wikipedia has articles on Switzerland and France, which the Spanish Wikipedia doesn't have... so even with more users, doesn't mean you can support an article on each country. I think it would be a certainty that if 100 breakout articles are created, almost all of them will be deleted very soon after their creation. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 11:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Death totals map
Can someone make a death totals map like the confirmed cases totals map (pink map) ?

Suggest:

{{legend|forestgreen|0 deaths}} {{legend|indianred|suspected deaths}} {{legend|#e0e0e0|1+ deaths}} {{legend|#c0c0c0|5+ deaths}} {{legend|#a0a0a0|10+ deaths}} {{legend|#909090|50+ deaths}} {{legend|#707070|100+ deaths}} {{legend|#505050|500+ deaths}} {{legend|#303030|1000+ deaths}} {{legend|#101010|5000+ deaths}}

70.29.208.129 (talk) 12:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I have tried to make such a map, but I found it extremely hard to find this information, the outbreak in Mexico page is definitely outdated, seeing that it's over a week old. Notelitten (talk) 14:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a deaths map for the world then? 70.29.208.129 (talk) 03:44, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * File:H1N1_map_by_confirmed_deaths.svg Done. Notelitten (talk) 13:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks nice. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 06:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

A Mexican deaths map is now available: File:H1N1 Mexico deaths.svg &mdash; 70.29.208.129 (talk) 12:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Type map counterpart for SWINE Flue in Asia.PNG

 * Here you go a black-red-yellow map and also a new case count map now both in a better SVG format. --  [[ axg  ⁞⁞  talk   ]] 23:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Abolish country maps
Since the article has become one of the longest in the whole Wikipedia, taking too much time to load, I suggest to remove all the country maps (those showing the distribution of cases within the country) from the article (with the possible exception of the "big three" Canada, US, Mexico). Only the "continent" maps should remain, IMO.

We could move the country maps to the corresponding individual country articles or replace them by a wikilink to the same map. This way one needs not load all the dozens of maps when reading or editing part of the article.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 00:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Or we could simply split the article by continent. It would also solve the fact that this article is rather lengthy. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 03:54, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Say split into


 * 2009 swine flu outbreak in North America (Can, Mex, USA, Greenland, Virgin Islands, Bermuda, etc)
 * 2009 swine flu outbreak in Caribbean and Central America
 * 2009 swine flu outbreak in South America
 * 2009 swine flu outbreak in Europe
 * 2009 swine flu outbreak in Africa
 * 2009 swine flu outbreak in Oceania and Antarctica (Oceania meaning all islands not part of continents (like Diego Garcia), plus Australia, PNG, NZ, etc)
 * 2009 swine flu outbreak in Asia
 * Then leave only continental summaries in this article.
 * 70.29.208.129 (talk) 04:41, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it should be split it into countries, and here as a continental summary, after all, this is just the beginning, and the cases are going to increases in each country. --Vrysxy! (talk) 07:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I support 70.29...'s suggestion to split the article by continents, but it would be much work with correcting all the redirects. I would be happy if someone takes the effort. Otherwise I will go ahead with my suggestion.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 17:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I did South America and Asia, though I don't have time to finish the other continents. Removing the maps would also be useful. Calliopejen1 (talk) 01:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Many redirects can be corrected through a bot request. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 05:35, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Currently about half this article is on Europe, and the majority of the rest is on Central America / Caribbean... so if someone could start the split on these two regions... 70.29.208.129 (talk) 08:30, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have now removed the country maps, as suggested. I put wikilinks to them in the corresponding chapters instead. I think they should stay this way even when Europe/Oceania get their own article. (However, someone with much spare time might like to create a second-division-level map of cases for Europe merging these country maps, as there is one for North America.) --Roentgenium111 (talk) 22:54, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Oceania doesn't have any maps in any case. Only Australia has an up-to-date map, NZ's map has been out of date for weeks. So I don't see the point of keeping maps off it, since there can't be much loading issues, as there's no maps yet. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 04:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That's right. I was rather hinting at the Europe article, and just added Oceania in order to apply the same rules to all continents.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Change the title...
Since the data by country is being transported to other articles I believe this article should be called "2009 swine flu outbreak by CONTINENT" also the term "swine flu" should be replaced with "A(H1/N1) flu". And just as a suggestion there should be a table indicating the number of cases and deaths by continent. Tony0106 (talk) 18:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Support for the name change to "continent", but "swine flu" should only be changed if there is agreement on it in the "global article". --Roentgenium111 (talk) 21:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Europe/Asia
If the data on these continents has been split into the corresponding continent articles, they should be deleted here as soon as possible. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 21:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I created the European page I wanted to delete it from the main article but I don't wanna violate any rules, for removing sources, and having my account blocked for a day. So if anyone know the correct procedure to delete the sources and summarize the section it would be appreciated. Thanks. Tony0106 (talk) 22:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have removed the split off data. It should have been removed as soon as the split was completed. Cleaning up afterwards means I had to compare all the data to make sure no one updated anything, making it very tedious. In order to split properly, leave a summary (or in this case, the most important points) of what was split off when you remove it all. 70.29.210.130 (talk) 05:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Country inclusions in Europe/Asia
There is a brewing issue HERE about which countries to include and where: namely, Turkey, Cyprus, some ex-Soviet republics, and Israel?! Please comment there. Thanks! Bosonic dressing (talk) 19:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Asia
I think the chapter on Asia should be shortened now it has an own article, it's by far the longest. I realise Asia is the largest continent, but it is the continent with the least number of cases (except Africa). Even Oceania has more cases. Thus I think the chapter should definitely be shorter than that on North America, say. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 11:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is somewhat long. Though it should still have subsections. East Asia, South Asia, Southwest Asia - atleast. Central Asia with Southwest Asia probably; Southeast Asia probably with East Asia; North Asia... Is Russia separatable between European and Asian Russia? 70.29.210.174 (talk) 06:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The subsections are fine, but currently they contain only information on the individual countries, not a region overview. The chapter is almost as long as the Asia article itself. I think we should delete the chapter completely, except for the subsection headlines, and wait if someone can write a short text on each region as a hole.
 * @Russia: Russia does not have a political intersection separating the two continents (after all, the border between the two continents is not really fixed), so I think it should not be separated. Most of Russia's area lies in Asia while most of its population lives in the European part, so take your pick.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 16:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the length of the Asia section is fine. As home to 60% of the world's population, there is a lot to say about it. Each country only has a few sentences. What would you take out? Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Essentially everything about the individual countries. We have the Asia sub-page for this. Please read my above comments. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 16:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Hong Kong epicentre of SARS?
"Hong Kong also became one of the first jurisdictions to declare the swine flu as a notifiable disease, and much of the procedures against the spread of the swine flu were learned from the 2003 SARS outbreak, of which Hong Kong was the epicenter of the outbreak"

Epicentre = the point from which an infestation begins and radiates.

I just checked the Wikipedia article on SARS and it states SARS started in Guangdong, China. The deathtoll in China was even higher than that of Hong Kong.

I suggest removing the mentioning of the 'epicentre' - it's misleading people to think that the virus started in Hong Kong, when in fact it started in Guangdong, China. --Platinum inc (talk) 19:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

"Melbourne the capital of the state of Victoria is designated as the swine flu capital of the world."
According to the reference, this 'designation' has been given to Melbourne by 'The Australian' newspaper. The Australian doesn't appear to be quoting any official source, and so this designation 'as the swine flu capital of the world' is merely editorial on their behalf (based on the per capita infection rate), and as such should not be written up as 'fact' in the way it has. I've modified the comment as such. 121.44.156.246 (talk) 17:00, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Countries in Europe and Asia
Please see Talk:2009_flu_pandemic_in_Asia where there is an ongoing discussion on which articles countries should be placed. Countries like the Mediterranean islands, Turkey, Russia, Caucuses nations, etc. 70.29.212.226 (talk) 07:19, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Africa
What's up with Africa? It hasn't been split, so why was it reduced? 70.29.210.174 (talk) 04:43, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's been split now. Contributions/70.29.212.226 (talk) 08:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

...by continent
This article only talks about the continents themself, so doesn't should be 2009 flu pandemic by continent? João P. M. Lima (talk) 18:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The name is a legacy of when all the country sections were in one article. It's not quite by continent, since Oceania isn't a real continent, it's a whatever is left over after you take out Afreurasia and the Americas. 70.29.212.226 (talk) 04:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

ok :) cheers João P. M. Lima (talk) 11:46, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Overview section
this section uses citation to other wikipedia articles, which cant be used as a citation on wikipedia, plus the populations are cited, while the other colmns of the tables are not, I ll try to work on it for a while, using citation to the latest who report here, and the population citation should be changed to other reference, maybe CIA fact book, thank you :-) M aen K. A.  Talk  08:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Zoonosis map


A zoonosis map is now available. 70.29.212.226 (talk) 08:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Update needed: Death totals map


H1N1 map by confirmed deaths.svg needs an update for the Chilean death. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 06:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC) ✅

Can someone update this world map for deaths, for the Dominican Republic? 70.29.208.129 (talk) 08:39, 6 June 2009 (UTC) ✅

Can someone update the world map for deaths, for Colombia? 70.29.210.174 (talk) 06:24, 10 June 2009 (UTC) ✅

Can someone update the world deaths map for the June 10 death in Guatamala? 70.29.210.174 (talk) 06:32, 11 June 2009 (UTC) ✅

So can someone add Scotland to the deaths map for June 14? 70.29.212.226 (talk) 04:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC) ✅

Someone needs to update the map to take account of the death in Argentina. 70.29.212.226 (talk) 03:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC) ✅

An update should be done for: 70.29.212.226 (talk) 07:52, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Honduras
 * Philippines

African maps
reqmap

Can someone create a pink map for Africa, and a black-red-yellow map for Africa? 70.29.212.226 (talk) 08:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

✅

Antarctica and Argentina
The maps of Argentina contain Antarctica... but AFAIK, Argentina respects the Antarctic treaty, is a treaty member, etc... Why does the map contain Antarctica then?

And Antarctica is colored in, does anyone have information on confirmed cases in Antarctica?

70.29.212.226 (talk) 08:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Per capita map
Examining the maps which are currently generated for the articles (these are fantastic BTW) sort of gives an alarming picture for parts of the world where large populations exist; as it denotes number of cases above certain thresholds. Are there any schools of thought to create maps noting per capita rates, as it becomes much clearer as to the infection rates and risks? --HJKeats (talk) 13:43, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that would be very informative, quite tricky to make though. It would compliment the other maps well. |→ Spaully τ 09:04, 24 June 2009 (GMT)

New maps
I made the Oceania map and H1n1 Africa Map is avaliable too.--Vrysxy! (talk) 04:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposed article move
As this article has grown and developed, subarticles for countries and continents/regions have also been developed. Consequently, this article no longer deals with the former in abundance but moreso the latter, with much of the article organised in a continental/regional context. So, I propose it be moved to one of: I prefer the former, as the latter can be interpreted to be vague. (As for Oceania, see that article.) Thoughts? Bosonic dressing (talk) 10:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 2009 flu pandemic by continent
 * 2009 flu pandemic by region
 * I support the 2nd idea. Much better name. 75.180.44.9 (talk) 01:34, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

community outbreak maps
 Image:H1N1 map by confirmed community outbreaks.svg|H1N1 map by confirmed community outbreaks.svg Image:H1N1 South America Community Outbreaks.svg|H1N1 South America Community Outbreaks.svg Image:H1N1 Europe Community Outbreaks.svg|H1N1 Europe Community Outbreaks.svg Image:H1N1 Asia Community Outbreaks.svg|H1N1 Asia Community Outbreaks.svg 

Can the various community outbreak maps have their colours harmonized?

How about additing in all countries with confirmed infections, and adding a second color for "isolated infections" ?

76.66.193.20 (talk) 06:04, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

{{legend|black|Deaths}} {{legend|darkred|Confirmed community outbreak}} {{legend|red|Confirmed cases}} {{legend|yellow|Suspected cases}}

The Philippines map combines community outbreaks into the regular red/yellow/black map. Perhaps we should do that with the community outbreak maps? 70.29.208.69 (talk) 22:19, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

File:H1N1 South America Map.svg
File:H1N1 South America Map.svg is closing on being completely black, can someone convert this to first level national subdivisions mapping, like the North America map? 70.29.208.69 (talk) 05:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Akimiski Island
Akimiski Island is the wrong colour, it should be the same as Nunavut, instead it's the same as Ontario.

70.29.208.69 (talk) 21:56, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Move?
no consensus to move. I can see both sides but there doesn't seem to a consensus to move at this time (plus there are those pesky tables at the top of the article!) --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 00:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 2009 flu pandemic by country →  — I proposed this move 5 days ago, putting notices up on several related article talk pages, and only one other editor has commented in support of a move. (Given the lack of response, the move can hardly be deemed controversial, since the article and subarticles are organised that way.)  Once moved, the former title can simply host a list of country articles.  I'd do the move myself, but there seems to be some sort of block prohibiting article moves ... perhaps due to dickery?  Please do or advise.  Bosonic dressing (talk) 02:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Querying: The article also lists by countries. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You see country statistics throughout the article, which is not in dispute, but it is organised primarily with a continental/regional focus (e.g., glance at the table of contents). This structure is reflected in the various subarticles for each continent -- 2009 flu pandemic in Africa, 2009 flu pandemic in Asia, 2009 flu pandemic in Europe, 2009 flu pandemic in North America, 2009 flu pandemic in South America, 2009 flu pandemic in Oceania -- the contents of which are further subdivided by country ... which this article can simply be a list of. Bosonic dressing (talk) 13:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Opposed: Yes the article broken down into Continents, but it mainly discussing the effects of the 2009 flu pandemic by country. The continental break downs just makes it easier to locate the country in question that people to locate info on. 『 ɠu¹ɖяy 』¤ 01:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment This article, as it currently stands, displays overviews of each continent and how they are being affected by swine flu - if I want to find out about how Italy, to take one country, is being affected, the relevent information is located at 2009 flu pandemic in Europe. This article here does not list each individual state. I'm not sure "by continent" is the best way of titling this page though - what about "Global reach of the 2009 flu pandemic" or something like that? YeshuaD avid   •  Talk  • 21:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Note an opinion in support of the move made previously was not transposed; thus: "I support the 2nd idea [move to '2009 flu pandemic by region']. Much better name. 75.180.44.9 (talk) 01:34, 27 June 2009 (UTC)" --Bosonic dressing (talk) 21:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose seems to be a list of countries grouped by continent. The information is still there for individual countries.  Aubergine (talk) 01:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose it is indeed a list of countries grouped by continent (at first it was by region). There is no info at the continent level, everything is detailed for individual countries.--Mariordo (talk) 05:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Argentina
100.000+ cases in Argentina? Felipe Menegaz 15:47, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it´s an estimate given by health minister Juan Manzur on July 3rd 2009. Acolombo1 (talk) 19:58, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

North Korea (PDRK)
It's on RTE, a North Korean Communist party official has just died of Mexican swine flu!.--Qministrator (talk) 18:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC) --Qministrator (talk) 18:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Guadalupe
2 are infected on the island [].--86.25.9.212 (talk) 11:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Chile and Antarctica
Why is Antarctica on these maps? There have been no reported deaths or cases in Antarctica, yet it is colored black/pink. And Chile is a signatory to the Antarctic Treaty staying its claim to Antarctica.

70.29.208.69 (talk) 07:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The ten countries with most confirmed cases per capita
The table The ten countries with most confirmed cases per capita, should have a ratio of 1:100,000 as it artificially inflates the number of cases higher than the actual number for countries with populations below 1,000,000. --HJKeats (talk) 13:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, it is standard practice in the health sector to report all rates by 100,000 people, not by the million. I will correct the rates later, but please any editor feel free to collaborate and correct the rates.--Mariordo (talk) 14:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Inaccurate tables
I just deleted 2 tables that were grossly inaccurate. I could not see a way of correcting the tables without Original research.

The first table had a column header entitled "mortality rate". Mortality rate refers to total deaths/total population and is normally calculated on an annual basis for the flu. Seeing as we know neither the total deaths and pandemic has not lasted more than a year we cannot calculate this figure.

The header to this table refers to confirmed deaths/confirmed infections. This is not a meaningful figure as neither figure can be used to estimate total deaths or total infections. Furthermore comparing different countries on the basis of this quantity is not meaningful as differing detections methodologies are in use in different countries. This cannot be resolved without original research.

The second table is titled "Top 13 countries, deaths per millon inhabitants (as of July 14 2009)" but it lists only confirmed deaths (which does not estimate total deaths as the CDC has observed). Furthermore it has a Deaths per million column. Again we have no reliable data for this figure, again this confirmed deaths per million is not a meaningful quantity and again comparing countries on the basis of confirmed deaths per million is not meaningful. Finally this also cannot be resolved without original research. Barnaby dawson (talk) 21:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, thats right. A motality rate of 5% in Jamaica is a joke. This land does not have the resources for testing. =This table must be more explained to the wiki-reader.

Bad english IP-Editor 93.131.22.196 (talk) 01:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Mariordo has reverted my deletions suggesting a discussion should occur first. In light of Mariodo's comments I will not immediately delete these tables. However, I'm still convinced these tables have no place in an encyclopedia without a source for the tables (not just individual numbers within them).

To anyone who has any objections to the deletion of these tables please explain why they should remain (or indeed anyone who wants to discuss the matter). In particular I would like an explanation of either why they are not inaccurate or how they might be changed in such a way that they would be notable, accurate and not original research. I won't take any further action on the page until other users have had time to consider the matter. Barnaby dawson (talk) 11:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Though these table seem to provide useful info, Barnaby dawson is right about his concerns regarding WP:OR. Since these rates do not come directly from a reliable source or health authority they should be deleted, as they were clearly calculated by a pool of editor, and they are being updated by us based on the total number of cases and deaths. I am aware that some countries have published some rates, but this is not enough for a comparison like the one already in the article (not all countries are available) and some countries facing a surge during the latest weeks (Costa Rica for example) decided to stop testing probable cases to concentrate on the critical patients, so comparison is becoming even more difficult.--Mariordo (talk) 23:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

If tomorrow I still see no convincing argument in favour of keeping these tables I will delete them. Barnaby dawson (talk) 11:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the "second" table giving the number of confirmed deaths per million inhabitants should stay - just add a "confirmed" before "deaths", then the "deaths" column is perfectly referenced, and the ratio is just a simple mathematical calculation which does not constitute OR, AFAIK. This table is much more meaningful than the apparently undisputed "comfirmed cases per capita" table, since deaths are more likely to be reported than harmless cases. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 17:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * PS: @Barnaby: Do you have a reference for your claim that "the number of confirmed deaths does not estimate total deaths as the CDC has observed"?? I can only find references saying that they say this about the number of confirmed cases.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 17:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * CDC says "...influenza is infrequently listed on death certificates of people who die from flu-related complications." and "Only counting deaths where influenza was included on a death certificate would be a gross underestimation of influenza’s true impact." from this article. I recommend reading the page.  Its very enlightening.  Barnaby dawson (talk) 18:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think that correcting deaths to confirmed deaths addresses the problem of notability or the problem of original research. This figure has no notability (Who credible thinks it makes sense to calculate it?) and we have little reason to think that is is meaningfully comparable between subsaharan Africa (where confirming deaths from swine flu is going to be very rare) and Western Europe (where confirming deaths from swine flu is just unlikely).  Even if it is comparable we need a source for that claim otherwise we're doing the epidemiology ourselves!  Putting the figures in a top ten table strongly implies that they are comparable.  That assertion is original research as no other organisation has published them in a table themselves (and hence asserting that they are comparable).  You are right that the first table is dodgy too.  But we'll have to give people a chance to consider that later.  Barnaby dawson (talk) 18:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree totally with Barnaby dawson. WAS 4.250 (talk) 17:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I will delete the first of the two tables in question (the second table in the overview section) as there has been no attempt to justify its presence. I will wait another few days for further discussion of the second table in question before taking any action regarding it. Barnaby dawson (talk) 08:51, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

It's now been another few days. I will delete the second of these two tables tomorrow assuming no compelling argument is given against. I also formally invite people to justify why the remaining table in this section is notable (credible source required that treats confirmed cases per 100,000 inhabitants as a meaningful figure). I'll give until the weekend for thoughts on that one. Barnaby dawson (talk) 15:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hello, deaths per millon inhabitants is a measure of impact on a given community, and seems to me a proper table in an encyclopedia. The numbers are definitely not Original Research, as they are taken from the table above (Template:2009 flu pandemic table), the accuracy of which may be disputed, but is well referenced in the majority of cases. I will restore the table whenever I can. You removers might think of a way to keep information online while performing your wipe actions.Acolombo1 (talk) 17:31, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Please give a source for the figures calculated in the table which supports their comparability and which supports their rankability. Without such a source this table is original research in that it heavily implies that these figures are comparable and that they can be meaningfully ranked.  Your argument regarding original research entirely misses the points I have made above and again here.  To re-add the table would be to violate wikipedia policy and would also be going against the balance of opinion expressed on the matter.


 * I also do not see why you consider it desirable to keep potentially misleading and likely misinformation in the public domain. This is especially true with regard to countries where mortality rates are based on statistically insignificant numbers (Tonga for example).  Barnaby dawson (talk) 22:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I don´t intend to violate any policy nor I think I do. I´m talking about the death per millon inhabitants table, not the mortality rate one, which I agree is misleading and pretty useless. Deaths are perfectly comparable, and populations too. Regarding deaths I will cite a source (in Spanish), I´m sure you´re smart enough to get the same info elsewhere:, it states the international guidelines to classify deaths. Also:


 * I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you intended to break wikipedia policy.  However, I still think that the table doesn't meet wikipedia's content policies.  The first article you give me (which is transcribed into English) does not have any statement supporting the comparison of 'confirmed death rates per 1,000,000' between differing countries.  Neither does it have any statement supporting the ranking of countries by such a figure.  It's possible I've missed the relevant passage here (the article was quite long).  If so could you please give the precise sentence/paragraph that contains the supporting statement.  The second article will not load (perhaps the link is broken?). Barnaby dawson (talk) 16:21, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Even if numbers are not equally accurate or absolutely comparable, a guide will always be better than nothing. Rankings are not always definitive, is not a matter of who is the champion of flu, it´s a guide. If you prefer walking in the dark do so, but why condemn everyone to do so?Acolombo1 (talk) 13:29, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree. A guide which is very misleading is worse than nothing.  For one thing this table may cause panic in small countries where the rates are spuriously high (due to statistically insignificant samples).  The absence of a source for these comparisons is sufficient reason to exclude the table from this article.  I shall have a think and see if I can think of a better way to source data (with a similar purpose) which doesn't break wikipedia policy.  If I think of something I'll let you know.  Barnaby dawson (talk) 16:21, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, in the eagerness to support my position I made many mistakes: I corrected the links. Unfortunately for me, the two links show a different death count, New Zealand reports the deaths where "pandemic influenza or its complications are the primary cause of death", while Chile is reporting the total H1N1 positive, for example, in 24th July report out of the 79 "H1N1 deaths", 66 are deaths "where Influenza is the basic cause of death or contributed being part of the causal event flow leading to death", 12 are under study and 1 is "discarded for being attributed to other cause of death". So I ended up supporting your position, still I don´t agree that the table is very misleading and worse than nothing. It´s not perfect but may be perfectible.Acolombo1 (talk) 16:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Going on with the idea, the guidelines are clear, but the data is presented in different ways, nice to find that the death toll everyone has is wrong then, for Chile we have 66 deaths up to date, as the other 13 are to be confirmed or ruled out. I will not insist with the table, but I think we should bear in mind that some governments tend to *hide* information, to avoid panic or whatever, and that is not the best way to cope with it.Acolombo1 (talk) 14:20, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What about making a sortable table with the data in question for all countries above certain "gravity" thresholds (e.g. all with >1000 confirmed cases and/or >10 confirmed deaths), but with the countries ordered alphabetically? This way we don't do any ranking of the countries, but the reader may rank them by sorting the table by one of the data.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The table is sortable, I don´t like thresholds as the are always somewhat arbitrary, but could be a good solution. I cannot stand seeing in an Overview that Argentina, probably the worst hit country in the world right now, is not present. This has to be corrected some way.Acolombo1 (talk) 22:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, now we´ve got the Chilean health ministry reporting the deaths per 100,000 rate in a table for their different regions. Furthermore, if you have a look at Pandemics, most of the pandemics are evaluated primarily regarding deaths as compared to total population. The deaths per millon or per 100,000 table cannot be objected then. I do object the cases per 100,000 table, as many have done in this thread. The current overview is misleading, so I will do my best to correct it.Acolombo1 (talk) 22:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That's hardly enough basis to insert that table. We need the comparison to be sourced not just an individual figure.  And we don't have any deaths per million figures at all.  All we have is a confirmed deaths per million figure.  That is not the same and it is not the basis on which pandemics are primarily evaluated as you claim.  I also object to the cases per 100,000 table.  You are right that the current overview needs rewriting.  91.125.50.226 (talk) 13:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Estimated Cases
Can someone explain this "Estimated Cases" column that has suddenly appeared?? If we're still arguing over the "Confirmed" cases, what source and accuracy is there for this wild speculation on possible, unproven cases?? Removing it until such claims can be documented. Kf6spf (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC).

Countries with confirmed outbreaks - no references!
This section was recently added. (I suppose it should read "confirmed community outbreaks"?) Can someone provide references for the given list of countries? Also, why add such a list when there is already a map directly above it presenting the same data visually? --Roentgenium111 (talk) 16:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Botswana and Faeroe Is update
4 are ill in Botswana and 2 are ill in the Faeroe Islands []. --86.29.135.76 (talk) 18:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Influenza prevention
This is not really about this article but it is a call for help on a related article, influenza prevention. My hope is to eventually have this article put into the "In the News" section, but it does not yet have appropriate content nor is it of high enough quality. I would like a consensus for this article and experienced editors to improve it. Any helpful edits to this article are greatly beneficial. Thank you. Sagan666 (talk) 00:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

New Zealand
New Zealand is not part of Australia. Why is it under the same heading? 118.208.191.120 (talk) 09:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Right, corrected.Acolombo1 (talk) 19:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Not 3611?
I recently noticed the death total is now '3533'. The lasted time I've looked, it was 3611, there must of have been a mistake or something?


 * Fluctuations often occur because of corrections.Acolombo1 (talk) 19:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Brazil
I have noticed that Brazil has almost gained 1000 deaths from this. Maybe we can find out why that is?

(TheGreenwalker (talk) 18:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC))

Question
Hello, is there another place for confirmed deaths in the UK only here? (194.83.131.4 (talk) 13:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC))

Suspicious numbers
Number of deaths for Brazil and USA are very suspicious. For example, CDC states in its report that causes of deaths from last week are Influenza and Pneumonia Syndrome, not just Influenza A(H1N1). So, the number is overestemated.

Nikolamilevski (talk) 15:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Pandemic
I know this is random, but what has the death toll have to be for it to be a real concern to health? Because there has only been 4,000 deaths. (TheGreenwalker (talk) 19:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC))

The correct total for US H1N1 deaths is....
...the total of

1. 641 = the last recorded number on the 2009 US swine flu outbreak table. This is the sum of all STATE-REPORTED H1N1 deaths up through today, September 15, 2009;

...and...

2. 196 = U.S. Influenza and Pneumonia-Associated Hospitalizations and Deaths from August 30 – September 5, 2009. This is the one week total compiled by the US CDC, over and above the total reported by the states. 99% of all current flu strains in the US are H1N1, so it's safe to say that all current US flu deaths are H1N1. Additionally, pneumonia is much more widespread during the winter months, making the current one-week spike reported by the CDC to be very interesting, to say the least.

This gives a current grand total of 837 H1N1 deaths.

Finally, the US media is reporting multiple H1N1 deaths on a daily basis, numbers that don't seem to be reflected in the state-reported totals noted above.

Please change the US H1N1 deaths to reflect the correct number, and please stop bouncing back and forth every time someone complains when the deaths appear to be going too high.

Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fluwatcher2009 (talk • contribs) 02:18, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Possible vandalism
On the green globe map, it states 1 million. I not too sure, but it should be checked out, thanks. (TheGreenwalker (talk) 18:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC))

Maps
a lot of the maps use the same colour in REALLY CLOSE to the same shade for two figures in the same map such as north america for 100+ and 500+ this makes it unusefull--209.181.16.93 (talk) 16:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I mean it looks like (on the green map) it has been vandalised. Take a look and you will see what I mean. (TheGreenwalker (talk) 22:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC))
 * I am talking about something different--209.181.16.93 (talk) 14:36, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

1st Death in Russia
Per should be added to the map. Edison (talk) 21:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The current H1N1 death toll for the US needs to be resolved...
Your site is claiming 724 US deaths based on numbers being reported by each of the US states. That number is now in question and should be corrected to reflect the NEW reporting format now required by the US CDC.

The new format is now including ALL influenza and pneumonia-associated hospitalizations and deaths. Because 99% of all current influenza is considered to be the H1N1 virus, it is safe to say that at least 99% of the current numbers being reported to, and by, the US CDC are H1N1 in origin.

As we all know, the US CDC reported 593 total deaths from the H1N1 virus under the OLD reporting format on 8/30/2009. 

On 9/5/2009, the US CDC reported 196 total deaths from the H1N1 virus under the NEW reporting format. That total is in addition to the numbers reported on 8/30/2009. Logically then, the total of US H1N1 deaths on 9/5/2009 was 789.  On 9/12/2009, the US CDC reported 168 additional deaths from the H1N1 virus under the NEW reporting format. That total is in addition to the numbers reported on 8/30/2009 and 9/5/2009. Therefore, the total of US H1N1 deaths on 9/12/2009 was 957. 

On 9/19/2009, the US CDC reported 572 additional deaths from the H1N1 virus under the NEW reporting format. That total is in addition to the numbers reported on 8/30/2009, 9/5/2009, and 9/18/2009. Therefore, the total of US H1N1 deaths on 9/18/2009 was 1,529. 

Fluwatcher2009 (talk) 05:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Please note my related entry. FHessel (talk) 18:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

UK vacine program
The UK is now vacinating 14 million people. Should we include this? (TheGreenwalker (talk) 15:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC))

New data from Russia
added the following

to this talk page, and was reverted as "unsourced" by. What I believe the anonymous IP meant to say was that he thinks the above info belongs in the article. Any comments on whether it does? Gabbe (talk) 12:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Already 5 swine flu death cases in Russia by October 29, please fix the map :c —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.143.6.22 (talk) 11:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

German Newspaper talks about higher case numbers
I'm gonna quote BILD-Zeitung: "Die Schweinegrippe breitet sich drastisch aus! Neue Horrorzahlen aus dem Ausland zeigen das Ausmaß der Seuche: England meldet 78 000 Neuansteckungen binnen einer Woche, Schweden 80 000 Fälle. Mittlerweile sind fünf Millionen Amerikaner mit dem H1N1-Virus infiziert. In Norwegen gibt es bereits 14 Tote, in Italien starben an nur einem Tag vier Menschen. Weltweit gab es laut Weltgesundheitsorganisation 700 neue Schweinegrippe-Todesfälle in nur einer Woche"


 * So they say, that there have been 78000 new cases just in the last week in England. (Here on Wikipedia, there are just 18000 cases mentionend and that since the outbreak...)
 * Sweden has had 80000 new cases since last week
 * 5 Million U.S. citizens have the flu as well
 * etc.

So they have much higher numbers than Wikipedia. I am not sure if they are right, but one should check that. -- 95.90.53.66 (talk) 13:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Ukraine=fail
Guys, have you read the article you referenced? 80.000 is a ridiculous number given only 3-4 days of fist AH1/N1 sights here. To clarify, 80.000 is a number of all flu cases both seasonal and pandemic, because the president giving the speech haven't focused any attention on this fact. I'll go find some more realistic data. Elf-Eluna-Alina (talk) 15:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Ukraine
Ukraine is missing in the "Overview" table, with about 40 cases per 10,000 inhabitants.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 14:02, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Slovakia
Slovakia haven't confirmed the first death yet. --78.99.84.36 (talk) 18:20, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Australia is not represented on any of the maps
So far as I can gather from a quick scan of the article, Australia has experienced relatively significant impact yet is not individually represented the way other regions are; it should be. Thanks, Abrazame (talk) 05:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course I realize it appears on the world map at the top, but it is not represented on any of the regional maps that focus on various regions, the way Asia is split into several sections and Central America is distinguished from North and South America. Abrazame (talk) 05:42, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added the Oceania map to the corresponding chapter.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 19:09, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Numbers for Ukraine
Numbers in the columns "Cases" and "Deaths" should be officialy, laboratory confirmed. Number of over 800,000 cases in Ukraine is about ILI cases. I recomend adding a new column about number of ILI cases and of "probable" deaths.

Nikolamilevski (talk) 16:34, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Guys, can we come to some agreement about how the numbers for the Ukraine are going to be reported instead of this constant bouncing back and forth between 14 and 100 plus? Hullexile (talk) 12:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

The numbers of Ukraina, according to Ukraina are hugely diffrent then the numbers on Wikipedia: http://www.moz.gov.ua/ua/main/press/?docID=14094. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dnclone (talk • contribs) 23:07, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Boing, boing, the Ukraine yoyo continues. Hullexile (talk) 02:16, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Whatever there is in Ukraine has killed at least 315 people in a couple weeks. It doesn't seem plausible that it's anything other than H1N1. CDC has not been tracking any seasonal influenza in Europe and the other explanations are absurd (Russian bioweapon) or stupid (pneumonic plague). Samples of the bug are supposedly being tested now, so that should be resolved soon.

Do H1N1 mutations still count as H1N1 deaths? 24.241.225.183 (talk) 03:24, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, the vast majority of these deaths are undoubtedly due to H1N1 (or possibly a mutation of it) as there is very little seasonal flu going round. Some will be due to other ILI but to state the number of deaths as 15 seems doubtful. However, I would rather we stuck to one figure be it the higher Ukrainian Government figure or the lower ECDC figure rather than this constant up and down. Can the people who are changing the figure every day come on here and argue their case? Hullexile (talk) 04:12, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Swine flu in France and Italy
The numbers of officialy confirmed cases for swine flu in France and Italy are very suspicious and probably wrong. Plese somebody to check them.

Nikolamilevski (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Also confirned cases in Faeroe Islands
Omitted from wikipedia's table, though. This official document from health authorities, dated 7. aug 2009 states "Nú hava íalt 44 fólk fingið staðfest krímsjúkuna H1N1 í Føroyum." 

Rough translation goes "A total number of 44 people have been confirmed H1N1 infected in Faeroe Islands"

Celvin11 20. nov 2009 19:32 CET —Preceding undated comment added 18:32, 20 November 2009 (UTC).

H1N1 Flu has reached Svalbard
According to local paper, Svalbardposten (in an article dated 20. nov 2009), "Det er så langt påvist seks tilfeller av svineinfluensa på øya." Rough transdlation goes "So far, six cases of swine flu have been established on the island" Source:

Celvin11 20. nov 2009 20:04 CET —Preceding undated comment added 19:04, 20 November 2009 (UTC).

First case of H1N1 influenza in San Marino
From Radio e Televisione della Repubblica di San Marino 5 Nov 2009 "Influenza A/H1N1: primo caso in Repubblica" source:

Celvin11 20. nov 2009 20:36 CET —Preceding undated comment added 19:36, 20 November 2009 (UTC).

Update needed
Especially concerning the number of cases. Since this summer, the WHO ask the governments to stop counting each cases. BUT the template and the list of countries most affected keep the idea of "Confirmed cases", which is highly inaccurate now. Number of case have been estimated 22 millions in USA, nearly 2 millions in France, hundred of thousand in Spain, Germany, UK, etc... We should delete everything that dealing with "Confirmed cases" and change it with "Estimated cases". Because now, except for the death numbers, the confirmed cases number will stay frozen since this summer.Kormin (talk) 11:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The removal of the number of confirmed cases has been discussed previously and there was an agreement that the figures should remain and be updated as and when possible. Eventhough some countries have stopped counting cases altogether there are other countries that are still continuing their own counts.  You can either go to the respective countries health ministries' website and get the number of confirmed cases.  The various departments(EMRO, SEARO, etc) of the World Health Organisation also provide their own figures.  This plus information that is filtering in from various media sources shows that the confirmed cases should stay, irregardless.  I suggest if you want to add estimated number of cases, just put it in brackets or highlight it with a different color.  Roman888 (talk) 12:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with both of you! Confirmed cases are official, while estimated are much more accurate and therefore useful and informative! We should keep both numbers! 89.119.117.114 (talk) 18:26, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Confirmed cases
According to the table Italy has 3,064,933 confirmed cases. Italy's population is 59,854,860. This is about 53 cases in 1000, making it number one. However, Italy is not in the top 10 table on the left. Wallie (talk) 02:52, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Image
Why isn't the mutation image that I updated, well, updated? Rory Re  loaded  10:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Trying to find out the total number of reported deaths from h1n1 is difficult as the updates are mere estimates ,WHO Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 currentley reports aprox. 8768 deaths however in reasearching many articales, the numbers are much higher than that , for example THE ASSOCIATED PRESS-US now estimates that 50 million Americans have had swine flu, and 10,000 died from it---The Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC)Bi-weekly and cumulative number of deaths due to Pandemic (H1N1) 2009, by province/territory, Canada, as of December 10, 2009, 11h00 EDT 373 and many more country.s have been reporting deaths as well, with just 2 countries mentioned here the death toll is over 10373 Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 by country reports a total of 11,808 , so all the mumbers are not updated , i expect it is much higher than what is posted —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scissorsshelly11 (talk • contribs) 10:41, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Old chart
How come the chart has not been updated since August??? Isn't it important to chart the slow down of the spreading? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.216.48 (talk) 13:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Is there any new data that can be used to update the pandemic? I just checked, the WHO states we're still in pandemic.
 * I reviewed the data coming out of the who and it appears to be still active, including new deaths. Esp. in eastern europe.
 * http://gamapserver.who.int/h1n1/cases-deaths/h1n1_casesdeaths.html

Yogiudo (talk) 17:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

The 2009 pandemic is the disease strain, not time sensitive
The 2009 pandemic refers to the disease strain, it does not have to have been contracted in 2009. This article and its related sub-articles need serious updating. Depaending on which chart one consults there were either about 1000 deaths in India or 1400. With most of this disease gone by 8 months ago it would be assumed a definitive answer can now be found.John Pack Lambert (talk) 07:47, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUST50010
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.hankooki.com/lpage/health/200909/h2009090823064584500.htm
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nationnews.com/news/local/LEAD-H1N1-Case-4-confirmed-copy-for-web
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090610151316/http://www.trinidadexpress.com:80/index.pl/article_news?id=161487721 to http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161487721
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nacion.com/ln_ee/2009/julio/31/pais2043450.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.ministeriodesalud.go.cr/emergencia_sanitaria/boletines/comunicado_oficial_influenza_pandemica_07_de_julio_2009.pdf
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/indexmh/influenza-a-h1n1-update-ninety-five-040709?Open
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.msal.gov.ar/htm/site/alerta-epidemiologico.asp
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.emol.com/noticias/nacional/detalle/detallenoticias.asp?idnoticia=365988
 * Added tag to http://www.elcomercio.com.pe/noticia/288650/
 * Added tag to http://www.flucount.org/

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 17:21, 20 September 2016 (UTC)