Talk:2010 Tonight Show conflict/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: RunningTiger123 (talk · contribs) 01:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi, this article caught my interest and I've decided to give it a go. It'll take some time to get through everything, but I should be able to finish it over the weekend. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)


 * GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Quick checks: — RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Copyvio check shows no major issues; closest matches are attributed quotes.
 * Images seem reasonable; the two non-free images (lead image and Kimmel) have solid rationales, and all images include proper alt text and captions.
 * The article is stable.

Lead
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "not participate in the destruction of The Tonight Show" – this quote is never used in the body, and is therefore unattributed.
 * That actually was not the exact quote, see "People of Earth" section. I only quoted the term "destruction". --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * on appearing on television – awkward repetition, maybe try against appearing on television?
 * Changed to "...while after a contractual seven-month ban against appearing on television,...". --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Background
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: From here on out, I'll assume Carter's citations are accurate.
 * Ref. 3 is okay, but not great. It would be better for a source to directly state NBC was a leader, rather than infer it from charts.
 * I changed the image caption. I think the chart is fairly straightforward in stating NBC/The Tonight Show were number 1 in viewership for most of the 90s and 2000s. If that still is insufficient please let me know and I'll find another reference. --   LuK3      (Talk)   12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * which began in 1993. – should be a comma at the end
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * can compete → could compete
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * (for Leno's entire run) – this might be confusing, since it's not immediately clear if this means 2009 or 2014. I'd suggest rewording or just removing it.
 * I specified it was Leno's first stint as host.
 * Ref. 13 does not make it clear if Michaels suggested O'Brien for the role.
 * I found a Los Angeles Times article that seems to say Michaels specifically suggested O'Brien as new host. --   LuK3      (Talk)   12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 14 never mentions a week-to-week contract.
 * There seems to be inconsistencies between the Bill Carter book and other references. Most online sources stated NBC put O'Brien on a 13-week (3 month) contract so I changed it to that. --   LuK3      (Talk)   12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 1:30 am., → 1:30 am,
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Early history
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:06, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No need to link Saturday Night Live again
 * Subsequent links removed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * For consistency, late night should be late-night when used as an adjective (not a huge issue, just something to consider)
 * Changed a few terms, I will have to go through the entire article but I'll do it section-by-section for now. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Swap sentences for better flow: Chernin warned... and Numerous executives...
 * Sentence swapped. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * will stay at NBC → would stay at NBC
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I still see the original wording... maybe it appeared twice? RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:21, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * as host well after the extension – feels like it's missing a few words, maybe as until well after the extension was signed?
 * Reformatted the sentence based on your section. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Should it say signed instead of sign? Other wordings are fine, but the current one is wrong. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 28 and ref. 38 are the same
 * I removed reference 38, there are enough refs for that quote. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * he likened his removal → Leno likened his removal
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 43 doesn't align well with article
 * Same with ref. 54
 * Sorry, I'm a little confused regarding this point. Are you saying the physical alignment of the references are causing a problem or is it something in the formatting? --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * My mistake, I meant that what the article says doesn't really match what the sources say (the article generally takes the statements too far). RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification! I changed the NYT references and reformatted the sentence cited by the Deadline Hollywood reference. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:50, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "paradigm shift" – cited source never uses this quote, so shouldn't be a direct quote
 * Removed that term. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Wrong year on ref. 57
 * Fixed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Ratings
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * While Zucker called O'Brien to reiterate that the generational change was expected – following source doesn't mention this
 * I changed that online reference to a Carter ref. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:59, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * by over 2.6 million viewers – it was actually much higher according to the source
 * You're right, it was almost 5 million viewers (Letterman had 7.2 million while O'Brien had 2.4 million), thanks for pointing that out. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 18.4 million viewers – does not match source
 * Changed to 17.7 million based on reference. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 84 does not include that direct quote
 * It looks like that quote is in the second paragraph of the source. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * coveted 18–24 demographic should be 18–34
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * local news viewership – clarify that it's on NBC affiliates, not all networks
 * Specified it was NBC affiliate viewership. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Use Law & Order instead of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit
 * Wikilink changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * he will return → he would return
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Conan sidekick → O'Brien sidekick
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Affiliate calls came at an alarming rate, and research analysis revealed... – sentence abruptly transitions from Leno to O'Brien; make the shift clearer
 * I changed it to Affiliate began calling the network to inquire about the show's fate..., perhaps that is a less jarring. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Affiliates should be plural. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:51, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Unrelated to this specific section: Wherever the first time appears in the article, it would probably be best to add a note that all times are Eastern (or Eastern/Pacific).

Conflict

 * The "Proposed changes" section relies heavily on Carter (the first and third paragraphs are sourced almost entirely to him). This may be WP:UNDUE unless other citations can be added to show why all of these details are relevant. If more sources are not added, the sections should be trimmed.
 * I trimmed some unnecessary sentences to just focus on the Leno meeting. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:28, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 11:35pm → 11:35 pm for consistency
 * Reformatted. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * lamented his anxiety – weird word choice
 * Changed to ...to share his thoughts regarding the ratings. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * including Los Angeles Times → including the Los Angeles Times
 * Done. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Only link Los Angeles Times and The New York Times at first occurrence (both are linked at least two extra times in the article)
 * Removed subsequent links. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 131 and 132 should use the same citation style as the rest of the article
 * Changed citation style. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Reaction and media coverage
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 140 doesn't really mention the details it supports
 * Added another reference. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * reminiscent of the Obama "Hope" poster – that's a bit of a stretch, I'm going to need a pretty clear source for that
 * I changed it to "similar" to the "Hope" poster, I believe the reference I added supports that. --   LuK3      (Talk)   14:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Can't find anything in refs. 152–155 mentioning that Zucker's reputation was damaged (it definitely was, but sources here don't mention it)
 * Add a Variety reference that mentions Zucker's reputation. --   LuK3      (Talk)   20:37, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 157, 171, and 176 should have citation style updated
 * Citation style updated. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:09, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ricky Gervais should probably be linked
 * Done.
 * Paragraph for ref. 164 is currently inappropriate WP:SYNTH because there is no source connecting the 1992 and 2010 incidents
 * I just removed that paragraph. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:09, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Leno retained an talent agent, a publicist, and entertainment lawyers – inappropriate synthesis again with the current sources
 * Also: an talent agent → a talent agent
 * "raced past the reviled likes..." – this direct quote doesn't quite match the source
 * I switched the quote. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Paragraph on Kimmel's response seems incomplete – didn't he criticize Leno more when he appeared on "10 at 10"? That feels like something worth mentioning.
 * I added a wrap-up sentence regarding Kimmel's criticism of Leno with an Entertainment Weekly reference.
 * "There's been three hosts..." – unsourced direct quote
 * Added reference. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The comedians who came out in defense... – probably should have a source or be cut, especially the latter half of the sentence
 * While it was most likely true, I couldn't find a reliable source to back that up. I removed that sentence. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 10:00pm → 10:00 pm
 * Done. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Conan's lead-in → O'Brien's lead-in
 * Done. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Don't link NBC Sports and Dick Ebersol again
 * despite O'Brien's success... – this part of the sentence isn't mentioned in the source, so it's inappropriate synthesis
 * Last part of that sentence removed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Settlement
Sorry for the delay, I'll try to get the rest of the review knocked out ASAP. (talk) 00:41, 20 August 2022 (UTC) — RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:15, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "betrayed" is a direct quote, so it needs a source.
 * Added the NYP article with the direct quote. --   LuK3      (Talk)   12:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * above standard GE levels – not in source and can easily be removed
 * Removed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   12:43, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * they have done → [they] have done
 * Brackets added. --   LuK3      (Talk)   12:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 216 (Carter) cannot prove that Leno's lead held for much of the rest of his run if it was published in 2010
 * Added another ref. --   LuK3      (Talk)   12:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It's another 2010 source – the source should be from 2014 or later if it discussed information up to 2014. RunningTiger123
 * Yeah, I added the wrong ref, it should be fixed now. --   LuK3      (Talk)   11:57, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Impact
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Also Leno's larger staff... – sentence is not supported by source, remove
 * Removed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * any effort to mention O'Brien's tenure was whitewashed from company history – overstatement, they simply removed episodes from the internet
 * I reworked that sentence to just mention the removal of reruns. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The sentence's grammar is incorrect and should be fixed. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sentence fixed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   11:58, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 242 links to the wrong page.
 * Link changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Aftermath
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * the show averages → the show averaged
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * US$4 million per episode – source says 2 million
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No need to link Jeff Gaspin or Rick Ludwin
 * Removed wikilinks. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:05, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The current wording implies both Graboff and Gaspin left in November 2011, but that's not right – the easiest fix is to remove in November 2011.
 * Ref. 258 appears to be an unauthorized copy of an episode clip – I would remove it (WP:COPYLINK).
 * Same goes for ref. 260 and ref. 185 (latter is in a different section)
 * I changed the citation style to cite the episodes and broadcast specifically. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:29, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * until he announced Jimmy Fallon... – weird wording; maybe use until Jimmy Fallon became the next host of the franchise in February 2014?
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Less than a month removed from hosting Tonight... – irrelevant paragraph, remove
 * Removed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * in addition to appearing on → and later appeared on (current wording implies appearances were on same date)
 * Changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 278 doesn't talk about O'Brien or Triumph at all
 * Changed the source. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:36, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * In 2017, mention was made of the host in NBC's 90th Anniversary Special – unsourced
 * Ref added. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ref. 281 doesn't mention Leno, as far as I can tell.
 * Ref changed. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the lengthy review and the delay – overall, it's a really strong article. Once the above comments are resolved, I'll be happy to support promotion. RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the thorough review . I believe I addressed all of the issues raised above. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * There are a few spots where I replied to your fixes across all sections that still need to be addressed (mostly grammar); otherwise, everything else looks good. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:47, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing those out, I believe it should be good now. --   LuK3      (Talk)   13:53, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks good! Passing shortly. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 21 August 2022 (UTC)