Talk:2011–12 curling season

Retirements: Kim Dolan
I feel that Dolan's entry in the retirement section should consist of information which summarizes her career in general. I felt that the information that I removed (other Scotties appearances as fifth and one win at a provincial championship) was definitely notable enough to be included in her article, but not so notable as to be included in the retirement section. The entry should include her greater achievements, and the provincial record didn't strike me as a profound achievement that she will be known for. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 01:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Why don't you take a trip to Prince Edward Island and ask around.. maybe you'll actually see how people feel about her career, since you seem to feel differently. Sirrussellott (talk) 02:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I haven't the capacity to make such a trip. I feel that my perceived lack of information on Dolan's reputation still doesn't provide enough reason to consider the information I removed as notable enough to be included in her career summary. I think it may be helpful to provide my rationale for the changes I've made, so that my reasoning might be understood more clearly. I replaced the information regarding her appearances as alternate/coach with the general statement of her appearance in the Scotties as a "player, alternate, and coach" because it best fits the nature of the description of her career in this section, namely a summary of the important points of her career. I also removed the section on her provincial win with her daughter because while it may be a record that she set, it is not crucial in understanding the scope of Dolan's accomplishments. This kind of information can and should be accessed from Dolan's article entry, which describes her major accomplishments in detail and also describes other accomplishments which aren't needed in the summary of her career. The things that need to be known to understand Dolan's achievements (i.e. her appearances at the Scotties, number of wins at the provincials, etc.) should be included in her career summary. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 02:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well then by your rational there is too much information on the Randy Ferbey retirement. People can see that information on his article! Sirrussellott (talk) 16:46, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd have to disagree there. While it is true that that information can be seen on Ferbey's article, the information provided gives an adequate synopsis of Ferbey's career, which includes his major achievements. Those achievements are necessary to understand his dominance in the curling world. As I stated above, I don't necessarily agree that the items in dispute on Dolan's entry constitute her major achievements, nor are they absolutely necessary to understand Dolan's achievements in the sport. The fact that her daughter won a provincial title with her is of less concern to her own achievements than her actual achievements are. On the contrary, I do feel that it is necessary to include the "Ferbey Four" in Ferbey's entry because Ferbey was with his team for more than a decade, making up a huge chunk of his career. And, on another note, I must point out that it is a proper gesture to refrain from adjusting the article until the dispute has been resolved. Prayerfortheworld (talk) 05:33, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Disagreement: over the addition of certain information to the entry for Kim Dolan in the section 2011–12 curling season
 * Suggested changes by Prayerfortheworld (talk) here (changes on left, reversion to current version on right)

I saw this listed at the Third Opinion project and, though I'm a Third Opinion Wikipedian (that is, a regular third-opinion-giver), I'm not giving this as a Third Opinion under the auspices of that project because, as much as anything, first, I don't think that there's a necessarily "right" answer (though there is a default right answer, which I'll get to in a minute) and, second, to the extent that I have an opinion about the issue, I fear that it's one that neither of you will like. (Let me note that what I'm about to say here, even though it's no u nder the 3O project, may 21:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)21:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)~cause the Third Opinion Paradox to occur such that a "real" Third Opinion will not be issued, though I would recommend to my colleagues at 3O that if anyone still wishes to issue a 3O that they ought to feel free to do so.) Thus said: That may not be all that helpful, but it's my opinion. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 14:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The default answer: For any edit to be made in Wikipedia, you have to obtain consensus to make it if anyone objects to it. If you cannot obtain consensus, and the opposition also cannot obtain consensus against it, then a no consensus situation occurs and, per this section of the consensus policy, the edit cannot be included. If you cannot come to consensus here, the best way to attract other editors to the discussion is through a request for comments.
 * As between the two contending versions, I don't like either of them. Indeed, my opinion is that the entire Notable Team Changes section ought to be limited to the absolute minimum necessary needed to describe the change. As for retirements and hiatuses, it ought to be simply limited to the individual's name, except perhaps in those very rare cases in which a separate article does not exist about the individual; for line-up changes, it ought to be limited (and is, in fact, already limited) to the minimum amount of text needed to simply describe the change. This isn't a sports column, it's a summary list, and the extra detail is neither needed nor appropriate. As might be implied from that, if I were forced to choose between the two competing versions, I'd choose the proposed, more succinct one, but that's only because I think it ought to be even more succinct, just two words: Kim Dolan.
 * Agreed. The simpler, the better. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Would, then, these following statements be appropriate? Prayerfortheworld (talk) 05:56, 10 May 2012 (UTC);
 * "Kim Dolan, one of Prince Edward Island's most notable curlers, retired from competitive curling following her final Scotties appearance."
 * "Randy Ferbey, one of the most dominant curlers in recent history, retired from competitive curling after his team broke up."

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