Talk:2011 England riots/Archive 2

East London
Why is there no mention of Walthamstow, Leyton & Strafrord being raided? The rioters did some considerable damage to those areas too--82.10.203.103 (talk) 02:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Then add this to the article yourself. You will need to supply cites to reliable sources to back up your assertions -- see the article for the standard format for these cites. -- The Anome (talk) 02:38, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I've not heard any mention of anything kicking off in Stratford or Leyton and I've been keeping half an eye on the news in case it decides to spread to other areas of Walthamstow.Mr Larrington (talk) 12:39, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Walthamstow [] was added an hour ago. :-}82.2.72.189 (talk) 11:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

At what point does a 'disturbance' become part of these riots? The Argos in Dalston (part of the Borough of Hackney) was raided last night. Should this be mentioned? --62.49.203.34 (talk) 11:59, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know at what point does a 'disturbance' become part of these riots, but untill this is sorted it is best to add all lootings and attacks on shops, police, press and goverment/corporate property. Yes, you can add about the The Argos in Dalston.82.2.72.189 (talk) 13:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Dalston is in.82.27.25.189 (talk) 16:42, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Riot dates
"6 August - 7 August" - There is no way of knowing the rioting will end on 7 August, I propose we change "7 August" to "Present" until riots end.

Black man
"The disturbances were preceded by the fatal shooting of 29-year-old black man Mark Duggan by police..." why does the colour of his skin need to be mentioned? Is there an undisputed endemic race problem amongst police? By this token every time a "white" man is mentioned the term must be used as well. The white Old Etonian Lord Mayor for instance. If it says "by a white policeman" there would be some undertones of an entrenced battle between black and white. There still appears to be the thinking that "black people" are downtrodden and always the victims of injustice.
 * Most of the rioters are black criminals who are reacting to the death of Duggan, also a black criminal, or using it as an excuse to riot. If the police had instead shot a white criminal, it is highly unlikely that it would have been followed by riots. Perhaps that makes it relevant to the article. 188.28.77.247 (talk) 09:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There's no evidence to suggest Duggan or the rioters were criminals. Let's wait until the facts are established and verified.
 * There is a history of racial tension, especially with the police, in the area so it is relevant. Also, when people (especially non-Britons) read about a Londoner I think they'd tend to assume he's white at first, so there's of course no need to describe others as "white". Considering the racial undertones in the actual case of Mark Duggan's shooting I think it should stay. Also, just FYI, you are aware that the Lord Mayor is not an Old Etonian - Boris Johnson is the Mayor of London, not the Lord Mayor of London. Tommer312 (talk) 09:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd think that the fact of the rioters torching vehicles and buildings and looting shops probably qualifies them as criminals.Mr Larrington (talk) 12:38, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * We are not the ones who should be making suggestions of racial trouble and should only mention it if there are reputable sources that are making the link. As it stands identifying him as a "black man" infers that this is an issue.  violet/riga [talk] 11:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't realise there were two separate entities Mayor of London and Lord Mayor of London, for my information, that's really helpful, good to know that always confused me when Ken's name came up as Lord Mayor. Boris Johnson is a white man and a white Old Etonian, foreign people assume that people from London are white, you have to be joking! The rioters are "black criminals" are these worse than "white criminals" could ever be?
 * I don't know of any case of a riot after police shot a white person. There have been many cases of riots after police shot black people. I think that makes Duggan's race relevant to the article and the reader's understanding of the course of events. 188.28.113.53 (talk) 14:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but it's not our interpretation that is important - we need a comment about this from a reliable source. violet/riga [talk] 14:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure you know many things but to say you don't know of any riot started after police shot a white man demonstrates a lack of life experience, because you don't know of anything does not mean it doesn't exist. Riots are not exclusively caused by police shooting "black" or "white" men. Look up the Wikipedia article on riots to see their causes.

It's always odd to see people use phrases like "Most of the rioters are black criminals". Did you take a census? Were you there? Having seen several pictures taken from the trouble spots I've seen black and white predominately young looking men. I think it would be fair to categorize most of the rioters and looters as 'youths' but to pin a race on them would be difficult at best. --Canhazanonymous (talk) 16:02, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually the majority of them from looking at the pictures are black. it would logically be so since the man who died seems to be the reason it started

It is important for the correct historical and sociological understanding of these incidents to recognise that race constitutes an important part of the problem. Mainstream media is seeking to downplay or ignore the racial element for political reasons that should not influence the neutrality of Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.250.85 (talk) 10:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Without proper reliable sources which discuss why the victim's race is important, this does not belong here. --John (talk) 18:44, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Mark Duggan

 * An article about Mark Duggan would be useful. The current page Mark Duggan is about another man (an Irish soccer player). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Since he's currently only notable for being shot (we haven't even had the autopsy results yet), that would probably be deleted under WP:BLP1E. Any info about Duggan is probably better here at the moment. Black Kite (t) (c) 11:24, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * BLP policies don't apply to dead people. We have plenty of Death of... articles, so could follow that format as a biography is not appropriate. --Pontificalibus (talk) 11:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The 1E part of BLP can effectively apply whether living or dead (think about whether Duggan would have passed BLP1E if he'd only been shot and injured - answer - no). Note also WP:BDP, given that we have very little reliable info at this moment.  I think the current redirect from Mark Duggan to here is a good idea and should cover all bases for the time being. Black Kite (t) (c) 19:34, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There's mention of this article as a dab at the top of that page - that should suffice. violet/riga [talk] 11:46, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't look here before, but I just boldly redirected Mark Duggan here, moving a footballer of the same name to a different article. Yesterday that article had a massive spike in hits, obviously as people were wanting to find out information about him. FWIW, I think that there should probably be a Death of Mark Duggan article at some point. Sorry my connection died just as I was about to post... SmartSE (talk) 14:53, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless there is significantly more information/controversy awaiting us about Duggan I really doubt that a separate article will be required. violet/riga [talk] 14:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Organising
There are lots of sources online now for the Blackberry Messenger broadcasts that were sent over the last few days to organise people in certain areas including http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog#block-61. Nanonic (talk) 13:40, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * UKBlackberry have just tweeted "We feel for those impacted by the riots in London. We have engaged with the authorities to assist in any way we can." - covered in the Guardian live feed above. Nanonic (talk) 14:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

This article is getting more ridiculous by the minute
In the lede, we read that having 'kicked off' (hardly an encyclopaedic term) in Tottenham, the riots have spread as far as Croydon. So what happened in Croydon? Somebody smashed some school windows, and there were 3 incidents involving thefts from cars. Without casting aspersions on Croydon, I have to suggest that this not only doesn't sound much like a riot, but that it doesn't sound that atypical for the area on any other day. I'll delete the Croydon non-riot from the article, and ask that people try to be a little less keen on hyping up minor events. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:34, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree, 'kicked off' is not an encyclopaedic term.86.16.0.158 (talk) 15:58, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

It is - what next - someone asking Boris Johnson to go there and say "look here you chaps it's hardly fair is it all this rioting, go home and have a jolly good rest."


 * What about the protests in London this is the closest article that comes up about the demonstrations in England and it's about Tottenham. WTF is going on... Every news network in the world reports there are problems in London, even the British media do:
 * http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots
 * http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/08/501364/main20089369.shtml
 * http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8689076/London-riots-Twitter-users-face-arrest-for-inciting-looters.html
 * http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-met-promises-more-police-streets
 * http://www.heralddeparis.com/london-violence-needless-opportunistic-theft/143750
 * And here are some Tottenham sources:
 * http://techland.time.com/2011/08/08/tottenham-protesters-used-twitter-blackberry-messenger-to-mobilize-riots/
 * http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/tottenham-riots-destroyed-more-just-buildings
 * http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2023596/Tottenham-riot-Why-shouldnt-David-Cameron-ask-Bill-Bratton-run-Met.html
 * http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3739222/Dad-Stephen-Seeman-Tottenham-riot-mob-tried-to-torch-car-with-baby-inside.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News
 * I have to agree that this article is ridiculous, but for entirely different reasons, because it seams to downplay the events rather than containing an accurate description of them (WP:SPADE).--87.202.64.218 (talk) 16:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I have to agree that this article is ridiculous, but for entirely different reasons, because it seams to downplay the events rather than containing an accurate description of them (WP:SPADE).--87.202.64.218 (talk) 16:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Misrepresenting sources, as was done with Croydon, isn't an 'accurate description' of anything. Yes, there are ongoing disturbances, but we need to report them properly, not invent them where they haven't occurred. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:02, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * However, there is serious trouble in Croydon - . Black Kite (t) (c) 19:36, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes - but the source being cited was for events over the weekend - and I can't be held accountable for deleting stuff that hadn't happened at the time I did it ;-) AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:17, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * BBC headline, "London riots: Croydon 'is a war zone'". Doesn't look like a teddy bears' picnic to me. Ericoides (talk) 21:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the good citizens of Croydon were upset by AndyTheGrump's comment - "minor events" - and decided to have it large. Stanley Oliver (talk) 21:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Who is in charge here, this page is as disorganised as the riot itself!

Preliminary bullet tests
Earlier today I added the word "allegedly" to this part of the article, since the only proof at the moment that the bullet was police-issue is an informal, unreliable article from the Guardian based on word-of-mouth. I am readding the word allegedly; please do not remove this until other sources appear to confirm it. The results should be available tomorrow, so wait 'til then. Regards, --— Cyclonenim | Chat 16:58, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The guardian is one of the UK's more reliable newspapers and ran the article on its front page with 4 reporter by-lines. That would be one heck of a risk to take if they weren't pretty darn sure. Still your avoidance of the electric fence is noted.©Geni 18:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It is not an encyclopaedia's role to be one of the first to post a story, it is our job to provide accurate and validated information. Newspapers make their profits off risks, the bigger the risk the bigger the sales. This information could change the whole swing of the situation so it's important to get it right. Until either other sources confirm what the Guardian have said, or until the ballistic tests are confirmed later today, it is important to regard the information as fiction until proen a fact. I, personally, find it very hard to believe, especially given the lack of evidence, so it's important to confirm it before we publish it. Regards, --— Cyclonenim | Chat 23:40, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No the gardian makes it's profit off auto trader. The paper hasn't made a profit in years. On the other hand it does do investigative journalism and treating that as fiction while viewing statments by the IPCC as gospel is a questionable approach.©Geni 16:42, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Not just the shooting?
Is there more to this than just the shooting? The influence of "high unemployment and cuts in public services" has been in and out of the article a few times now. Any other reliable commentary about this? violet/riga [talk] 18:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Opinions, especially fringe opinions, should not be presented as facts. We should wait for the results of the inevitable inquiry before attempting to state what the "causes" are.  Sure we can discuss subjective opinions in the article, but they should be presented as just that - as personal opinions, and equal airing given to all notable opinions. FactController (talk) 18:59, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * To meet NPOV we shouldn't be asserting the only reason as being the shooting if that is not the case. The first link is The Vancouver Sun which should be a reliable source said this:
 * Anger at high unemployment and cuts in public services, coupled with resentment of the police, contributed to an explosion of violence and looting in a deprived London neighbourhood, residents said on Sunday.
 * Now that is simply getting it from what residents say, but it's still getting towards some level of reliability. violet/riga [talk] 19:06, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This has been put back in the infobox and has two further sources. It should be in the lead but I don't want to be having an edit war.  violet/riga [talk] 19:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Can I add that I am not entirely supportive of this explanation given the timeline of events, but it may have been a driving force behind why things escalated. Importantly it is being reported in these four sources as a factor so that is why I think it should be included.  violet/riga [talk] 19:32, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * An opinion nevertheless, so should be presented as such, and if presented should be in context and should be balanced with others. Are the four sources reliable?  I agree too that we shouldn't be asserting that the shooting was a "cause" either. FactController (talk) 19:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Birmingham riots?
Tonight the riots have spread to Birmingham, and the connection to the London riots seems pretty clear. Could the scope of this article be expanded to cover these riots too? JordanH1400 (talk) 19:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You would have to say that it's more than just a coincidence but until reputable sources start making the link we will need to leave it out. It might be worth mentioning as a side note later on assuming (and hoping) that this is a one-off minor incident.  violet/riga [talk] 19:34, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that using the source cited to claim that there were 'riots' in Birmingham might be stretching things in any case. Disorder maybe, but no riot. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There has also been violence in Croydon and Leeds as well as Birmingham. This is no longer just London. The page name should be changed to England or UK 2011 riots.--82.16.221.138 (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Minor offshoots at most. If anything further develops then we can consider moving it.  violet/riga [talk] 19:58, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm aware, Croydon is still in London, or have the looters run off with the whole town? ;-) More to the point, until reliable sources suggest that there is rioting going on elsewhere, we should leave the title as is. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:17, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Croydon is part of the Greater London Area


 * Yes sorry about saying Croydon but there are confirmed reports from numerous news sources about Leeds and Birmingham. Infact the rather famous Bullring shopping centre has been broken into.--82.16.221.138 (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

The BBC and Sky are reporting unrest in Liverpool. Proper citation for Bristol from BBC Shops and cars damaged in Bristol disorder

Race riots in the United Kingdom category
Category:Race riots in the United Kingdom should not be included in this article. There is no mention whatsoever of anything to do with racism or race-related trouble at any point in the text. Until this is included and properly sourced it cannot be in this category. violet/riga [talk] 19:42, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree.--A bit iffy (talk) 21:54, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

um, of course these are race riots. It is just uncomfortable that they are, so people prefer to make contorted politically correct statements about social inequality. Obviously all race riots are born from social inequality. If there is no social inequality between races, there won't be any riots. That doesn't change the fact that it's a race riot. If you search "race riots" on google news, you will find lots of references, including many reporting contorted statements how they are not race riots. The lady doth protest too much, here, but at the least it will be easy to agree that the question whether these are race riots has been "controversial". Where "controversial" means that some politically correct effort has been invested into proving how race riots are not, in fact, race riots. Simply not mentioning the topic because it is awkward is not what Wikipedia is about. --dab (𒁳) 13:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Article title - confusion
I think this title might confuse some into thinking it's related to or is about the riots earlier in the year regarding university fees. Since it's a completely different issue, it might be worth changing the name. --Kurr 21:11, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * See 2010 UK student protests - that was last year. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:19, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You might be thinking of the 2011 anti-cuts protest in London. --TBM10 (talk) 21:22, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Misinformation, rumours and terrible editing
I've given up trying to control and improve this article. It is in danger of being completely over-run with misinformation and rumours, all added using poor MoS and with total disregard to notability. The comment in the Lead Paragraph about a Primark shop in Ilford being set on fire is a classic example. This article needs to be protected so that only registered users can edit it! --TBM10 (talk) 21:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree, generally poor editing. But the poor editing is generally getting fixed. At the moment, in my opinion, there isn't such a serious problem that requires a lockdown.--A bit iffy (talk) 21:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Ilford info is correct, however no cameras or news footage has really reviewed Ilford yet - however remove for the time being — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.42.58 (talk • contribs)

Also, where the article states:

Barnet: Sporadic night time riots in Barnet.[58] Streatham: Sporadic night time riots in Streatham.[58] Clapham: Sporadic night time riots in Clapham.[58] Islington: Sporadic night time riots in Islington.[58]

There is no evidence or report of this. Simply talking up the problem.


 * Yup, not in the source - I've removed them AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Fires and looting in the places listed above - and many more. Handy map of confirmed riot locations: Stanley Oliver (talk) 23:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that qualifies as WP:RS - it is entirely unclear where it is sourced from. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It is clear where it is sourced from - just click a riot icon to see the source. In many cases the source is WP:RS - others; perhaps not. Stanley Oliver (talk) 01:41, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Someone has now pasted this back into the article again after it was removed because the source does not report as denoted:

Streatham: Sporadic night time riots in Streatham [80] Clapham: Sporadic night time riots in Clapham [80]. Islington: Sporadic night time riots in Islington.[80] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.72.134 (talk) 22:12, 9 August 2011 (UTC)