Talk:2011 England riots/Archive 3

Social Networkings role
Not much at all on facebook/twitters/blackberries role in this in terms of word of mouth.

Facebook support group for the Met http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pages/Supporting-the-Met-Police-against-the-London-rioters/152937041453243 I think this deserves a mention to definately raise awareness.

Number of members needs to be amended on a continuous basis

Looters showing the 'spoils of war' on social networking sites (assuming this is a genuine picture) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023667/London-riots-Looter-posts-photo-booty-Facebook.html?ito=feeds-newsxml --Canhazanonymous (talk) 00:11, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * No evidence it's a genuine picture, and the Daily Mail is not a reliable source. No evidence that people were coordinating riots on Twitter either - I saw that pic on Twitter, but only posted by someone else who claimed it was a riot pic. This sounds like just a "Daily Mail blames the Internet" story, not at all suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Mdwh (talk) 22:38, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Here's citation for Public reaction section: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Supporting-the-Met-Police-against-the-London-rioters/152937041453243. This page called "Supporting the Met Police against the London rioters " and it has more than 850,000 people. Please fix it. --92.37.204.161 (talk) 22:58, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree thare is no indication the photo in question is genuine, bu to suggest that the Daily Mail is not a reliable source is absurd - it is as relevant as any other newspaper which are widely quoted in thousands if not millions of articles on WP. In addition, regardless of the authenticity of the picture, the caption is still relevant - police believe such pictures (genuine or otherwise) are an incitement to further looting. TicketMan - Talk - contribs 07:17, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protection
Too many well-meaning edits that are throwing in trivial examples of what has happened, but more importantly too much vandalism from a number of different IP addresses. Blocked as indef until things settle - might be a while. violet/riga [talk] 21:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Fatality in Croydon
Reports of shooting in Croydon, not seen on news sites yet but tweeted by ITV News [http://twitter.com/#!/itv_news/status/100686199684988929 ITV News Reports that a man has been shot in the head and killed in Croydon tonight. ] --AndrewTindall (talk) 22:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Still nothing I've seen yet. violet/riga [talk] 22:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sky now reporting a non-fatal shooting in Croydon. likely to be this same incident.--AndrewTindall (talk) 22:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Confirmed non fatal BBCs live feed states "2335: Police at the scene of the Croydon disturbances are investigating a "non-fatal" shooting, according to a source.

No more details are immediately available. " BBC London riots live feed --Canhazanonymous (talk) 23:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

A 26-year-old man shot in a car in Croydon last night has died in hospital, Scotland Yard says. [BBC] --AndrewTindall (talk) 11:56, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 798blue798, 8 August 2011
bromely has been attacked. reeves corner has been burnt down. This dredfull attack is scaring chilldren that dont deseve to go through such devistation to their home. 798blue798 (talk) 22:06, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The article is being updated as and when we get sources. If you have any links to help us then do please post them here.  violet/riga [talk] 22:12, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Local press on rioting in Bromley: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/9184210.UPDATE__Richer_Sounds_smashed_in__Bromley_High_Street_and_Bromley_South_closed/. Fences  &amp;  Windows  23:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request - Sock
It should be noted that the gun that was supposedly Duggan's was found wrapped up in a sock in his car.
 * I can't seem to find anything that supports that in that article. violet/riga [talk] 22:13, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This link http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-relatives-dead-manSuperNewToWiki (talk) 22:59, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

corrected broken link for guardian --Canhazanonymous (talk) 23:41, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * "Stafford Scott, a community leader who was outside the police station, said:
 * "We do not believe that Mark was bad enough or mad enough to come out of a car and
 * want to shoot at armed police officers.
 * Our information … is that the gun found there was found in a sock,
 * meaning it wasn't prepared for action."

However this is not NPOV - contrast this report of a previous incident in the same area
 * The loaded firearm was concealed in a sock behind the wheel of the car –
 * guns are often hidden in socks because
 * people carrying them are less likely to leave fingerprints,
 * whilst when firing the sock can catch a bullet casing.

--195.137.93.171 (talk) 01:32, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Note also that the injured officer may have been undercover - in plain clothes.--195.137.93.171 (talk) 02:13, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

London map

 * Greater London UK location map 2.svg (talk) 12:33, 9 August 2011 (UTC)]]

There are several maps of London on sites with crisis points shown. We outside of the UK would like to see where is that happening, compared to where is the center of London if possible. Thanks, --93.137.203.29 (talk) 22:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I've added a link to London borough - not perfect but it may be helpful. I considered adding more places on the map that currently only shows Tottenham but they are too close together to make it look right.  Someone else might wish to try with a large version of the map.  violet/riga [talk] 22:39, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Handy map of confirmed riot locations: Stanley Oliver (talk) 23:25, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that qualifies as WP:RS - it is entirely unclear where it is sourced from. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This is no longer being updated, but directs to a Guardian page - Raevn (talk) 23:10, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * here's the map:

Please see below, similar thread to this. A list of coordinates is what is needed really.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request -Leeds incident unrelated please remove
This BBC report makes it clear that the Leeds incident is unrelated to the subject of this article. I have tried to delete it from the article twice, but my attempts have both been reverted. Are we going to include in this article all local and unrelated incidents that occurr tonight - anywhere? FactController (talk) 23:13, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I just chastised a dog, does that count? violet/riga [talk] 23:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Bugger all to do with the riots. I don't seem to be able to edit the article anymore :( --Canhazanonymous (talk) 23:49, 8 August 2011 (UTC) leeds was an unrelated incident just coincidental pls remove

Liverpool?
BBC News just reported that some problems are happening in Liverpool now. Nothing worth adding yet but perhaps in the future. violet/riga [talk] 23:58, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Sky News have shown video footage but currently unverified.

"0059: Merseyside Police confirm they are dealing with a number of incidents in South Liverpool, including cars being set alight. Members of the public have been advised to avoid Smithdown Road, Lodge Lane and Upper Parliament Street. In a statement, Merseyside Police's Andy Ward said: "Officer have tonight dealt with a small number of incidents of violence across the city. We will not tolerate any violence on the streets of Liverpool and have taken swift and robust action in response." via BBCs live feed --Canhazanonymous (talk) 00:04, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Feel free to add it to the article if you can find and reference a reliable source, I've a feeling that tomorrow this page will be moved to "2011 United Kingdom riots" :( 12bigbrother12 (talk) 00:07, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we'll have "2011 England riots" before then! violet/riga [talk] 00:08, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Can't add it. I think the protection level is too high for me :P --Canhazanonymous (talk) 00:12, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Article needs to be renamed to '2011 United Kingdom riots' 2.102.43.214 (talk) 00:42, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Not really Toxteth. The areas seems to be Edge Hill, Wavertree all to the North of Toxteth by a few yards.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 01:07, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Article name should be changed
The riots are no longer contained to London. They've spread to Birmingham and possibly Liverpool. This article therefore needs to be moved. 2.27.5.50 (talk) 00:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Might I suggest 'The Duggan riots'
 * I know it seems too likely to be related rather than a coincidence but we should wait until those events are confirmed as linked to those in London before renaming the article. If a rename is essential then I'd suggest 2011 England riots. Regards, --— Cyclonenim | Chat 00:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * At the moment it is mostly within London and the news agencies are still referring to it as the "London riots". Hopefully we won't have any further problems elsewhere but I guess we'll have to wait and see.  violet/riga [talk] 00:38, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Birmingham, Liverpool, perhaps Bristol and Manchester. Riots don't happen randomly they are connected. This isn't just London anymore the name should be changed to '2011 England Riots' and if it spreads to Wales/Scotland/NI then '2011 UK riots'.--82.16.221.138 (talk) 00:40, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed they are certainly connected, but we are informed by our sources which still refer to it as the London riots. If/when the other sites start to change we can review the name again.  violet/riga [talk] 00:46, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Article up for deletion - please debate there and do not remove template

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a proposed deltion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was: speedy keep.

I've put this article up for deletion as I do not believe Wikipedia should have a current events news article such as this (Calling it '2011 London riots' etc). Please debate there. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:21, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Vote keep. This was debated earlier. --Canhazanonymous (talk) 00:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Stop wasting our time, this will be speedily kept. 12bigbrother12 (talk) 00:27, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You should probably be aware of Articles for deletion/2011 Tottenham riots. Also, you may want to read up on the inclusion guidelines. Do not make the mistake of thinking WP:NOTNEWS is a blanket guideline that means we do not cover events that are covered by news sources; please actually read the guidelines before trying to implement them. Best wishes, SpitfireTally-ho! 00:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you want to debate whether Wikipedia should cover current events in general, this isn't the way to do it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone wants to make a WP:POINT. If he undoes my Speedy Keep I won't revert - it's not really appropriate. I'm sure that it will be done [edit: ie someone else will speedy it] by someone else soon enough though. violet/riga [talk] 00:31, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

What is wrong with debate? The admin Violet/riga is a a contributor here - he/she gave it a speedy keep - no one else did. I seemed to me to be a deliberate stifling of debate, so I will undo it (I'll try again - it didn't seem to work - perhaps you could help Violet?). The article will merely have a delete template - no great shakes. Nobody must try and prevent debate - a speedy keep is not for this kind of thing (only for acts of Afd use-abuse really). Please remember that people here are not journalists, and the article is potentially damaging - and whether Wikipedia can do this right now needs serious debate. The whole question of media coverage is in question. In my view it is not Wikipedia's place to report breaking news like this, no matter how exciting it may be. Things are apparently happening in Liverpool now - let's just calm down shall we? This is (or was) an enyclopedia. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:46, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * What is wrong is that you are trying to make an argument about general policy in the wrong place, and against a clear consensus. Personally I have some sympathy with the idea that Wikipedia shouldn't be so quick with breaking news - but you cannot change policy here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:49, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) You're right, speedy keeps are partly for AfD abuse. For instance, if someone was nominating a high profile article for deletion so as to advance a personal agenda without any standing in existing policy. Go to a village pump if you really want to discuss this. SpitfireTally-ho! 00:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * How am I abusing it? I think the article should be deleted so I started an Article For Deletion AFD! How is that a difficult concept? Despite the huge pressure I was immediately put under, I did give sound reasons. This is a link to the 'speedy keep' - which is huge abuse of both of the Speedy Keep rule and of admin powers IMO. Debate has simply been stifled here - in the very place designed for it: Article For Deletion. People have no right to tell me to take it elsewhere. Readers should have a place to go to discuss this ACTUAL ARTICLE. Matt Lewis (talk) 01:38, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * They already have. The result was keep last time, and I've no reason to think it will change. Why do you think it will? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:42, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Who are "they"? A tiny group of involved admin? Or anything bigger? Me - I just like to do the ethical thing, especially when it's in-line with what Wikipedia is supposed to be about. I've had a load of shit tonight for this - I meant to go to bed two hours ago. Matt Lewis (talk) 02:31, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think he's just angry that this didn't get deleted. Let him sleep, he might feel better in the morning. In my personal opinion this should be kept. Wikipedia does updates very close to the time of happening for nearly every single other major event that happens in the world and so it should for this event too. --82.16.221.138 (talk) 02:38, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Could we please get that deletion tag taken down? This is getting really childish and should be taken to the appropriate place. Personguy2 (talk) 03:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * ''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a proposed deletion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

UK riots 2011
This is spreading and seems to be getting worse. This is not just a London issue now. Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester. Where next? I hope it does not spread into Wales.


 * Don't worry, it won't be as bad as this: "A.D. 981. In this year was St. Petroc's-stow plundered; and in the same year was much harm done everywhere by the sea-coast, both upon Devonshire and Wales." Count Iblis (talk) 01:36, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Name of article probably should be changed to English or UK Riots 2011. August 8-9, 2011, rioting is not confined to Greater London, but extends to Birmingham, Liverpool and Bristol. Lahaun (talk) 02:03, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. Riots have been reported in many cities outside of London. I think the article should be re-named to UK riots 2011. Nations United (talk) 02:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * UK Riots? How about Wikipedia UK Riots 2011 TM? Lets see how far we can fan it. Jesus. Matt Lewis (talk) 02:34, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not UK, they are only in England. Take the lead from 1981 England riots. WWGB (talk) 02:37, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * By the morning I feel that the media will be calling this the England riots as it is so widespread now and clearly not just in London. If it spread to Scotland/Wales/NI then we can change is to UK riots but for now I think changing it to '2011 England Riots' is a smart move.--82.16.221.138 (talk) 02:40, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * David Cameron will probably put a stop to it. In the Cobra meeting on 9 AM today (when the rioters will still be fast asleep), the decision will be taken to deploy large numbers of police forces or even the army to make it impossible for people to start to riot. Count Iblis (talk) 03:32, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Who are you people to decide when disruption (in Liverpool for example) becomes a 'riot'? Who are you people to decide when enough has happened to call it "UK riots"? For god's sake just let whatever is to happen unfold. Do not be part of it. WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A NEWSPAPER. Matt Lewis (talk) 03:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * England riots 2011 is also an acceptable name to me. I'm just saying that it's obviously extended further than London, so it should be re-named to fit the actual event. If the violence in London has been called riots, then the violence in Birmingham, Liverpool, and Bristol should also be called riots. And by the way, it seems that news websites have changed their headlines to "UK violence" and "violence spreads across England", so it's not just my personal opinion. Nations United (talk) 03:51, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I have just seen some footage and damage from Birmingham last night on the BBC News channel, showing fires and a row of shops looted. In addition to the reported "unrest in Nottingham and Bristol" and the riots that led to cars being burned out in Liverpool that we could change this to UK riots as it seems more accurate. I've no doubt that it will be changed tonight because the riots seem to be spreading outwards on a nightly basis. 12bigbrother12 (talk) 07:56, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Support, renaming to 2011 UK riots or some similar title. Guardian now reporting disturbances in Kent as well as the cities mentioned upthread. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/09/london-riots-violence-looting-live#block-24 yorkshiresky (talk) 08:54, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Note' 2011 English riots?Wipsenade (talk) 09:19, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Support renaming to 2011 England riots, which is what the BBC are now reporting it as. --AndrewTindall (talk) 10:15, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Support renaming to 2011 UK riots. The fact that civil unrest has spread to Birmingham, Manchester and other cities is extremely significant, and has the potential to shape the police response. (I won't say for sure, per WP:CRYSTAL.) The rioting is now a national issue, and the article should reflect that. --Delta1989 (talk/contributions) 16:11, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Support renaming to 2011 riots in England - best to wait, but for those of you who don't know their geography "UK" involves Northern Ireland; British riots - the island of Britain; so English riots is the correct title at this point.86.42.206.248 (talk) 07:59, 10 August 2011 (UTC)