Talk:2011 England riots/Archive 7

Sangat TV
Sangat TV seems to be getting a huge amount of attention judging by Twitter reaction, so it ought to be mentioned (probably in "Press" section which maybe should be renamed "Media"). Problem is, I can't find any independent sources. Can anyone else find any?--A bit iffy (talk) 23:48, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Found a guardian.co.uk article this afternoon which might be a good citation West Midlands riots: Sangat TV gets to the heart of the action | guardian.co.uk — Lemonade51 (talk) 14:25, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Start of rioting
Should mention reports that the crowd that marched on the police station included Duggan family members who were demanding to speak with a senior local police official, and that the group stayed there hours longer than they originally planned because the police refused to speak with them -- which is when the actual rioting started... AnonMoos (talk) 00:24, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That is definitely notable information. But, it does need a reliable source.  Deterence  Talk 05:43, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. ARK (talk) 08:30, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Outside of London - Bournemouth
Tuesday 9 August 2011, Dorset Police arrested a 23-year-old man from Bournemouth on suspicion of incitement to riot, following reports of information being forwarded by an electronic device regarding a potential planned disorder in Bournemouth Town Centre. He is helping police with their enquiries. Source - http://www.dorset.police.uk/default.aspx?page=5484 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.142.226 (talk) 01:15, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Leicester and Milton Keynes
Minor disturbances reported tonight. Sky News. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.246.85 (talk) 01:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Clapham Junction is not in clapham
The article says that there was a fire in Clapham. Thats wrong. It was clapham junction area, which is in Battersea, not in Clapham. To be precise, the fire was opposite of the Debenhams that was looted. Even BBC mixed up Clpham Junction and Clapham. ref: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14454248

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.145.39.239 (talk) 03:02, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Death of 3 in RTC
Sangat TV have reported on the death of 3 muslim men after an RTC connected to the riots in birmingham

http://twitter.com/#!/WMPolice http://twitter.com/#!/UpinderRandhawa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyA-PYPWOOU

BBC now reporting death of 2 of the 3. A murder inquiry has begun and a man has been arrested. 

Witness on sky news now reporting the 3rd death.

Can we please stop ignoring this news. --AndrewTindall (talk) 03:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

"London riots: 'we can't cope', police admit"
--Mais oui! (talk) 06:15, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Shortly after 9pm on Monday, as daylight bled from the sky, the police finally lost control of London.", Tim Ross, Heidi Blake, Duncan Gardham and Andrew Hough, Daily Telegraph, 10 August 2011

Death Toll
Is it not time to start mentioning a death toll on this page? It now seems that four people have died in events relating to these riots, including one man in Croydon who was shot to death, and three men in Birmingham who were deliberately run down and killed by a car while trying to protect their streets... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.244.223 (talk) 08:11, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Good point, can somebody sort that out? Current death toll: four... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harrychown1989 (talk • contribs) 09:11, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Australians
"Bromley: A gang attacked a group of Australians in Bromley during the morning." - the source doesn't support that. It says rioters attacked a sports bar in Bromley - it just happened to have some Australians in it. It doesn't say that they were attacked because they were Australians, or even that the Australians could be described as a "group". 81.142.107.230 (talk) 09:41, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed, ta. ARK (talk) 11:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Race
I've been reading the article and have been wondering one thing. Is race (or national, ethnic origin, immigration status etc.) a factor or not? It seems from reading the news from various sources that there is indeed some racial undertones of these riots, but Wikipedia is seemingly avoiding this (for the sake of political correctness???). Even though there are definitely white rioters, it seems that the majority are from immigrant or black backgrounds. If this is true we should call a spade a spade and let the reader judge the events for what they are, rather than cower behind a wall of "colour-blind" political correctness. Colipon+ (Talk) 10:35, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There are racial undertones, most certainly. But it mostly seems to be a class riot, more than anything. It's a bit hard to say for sure at this stage. -- Dorsal  Axe  11:03, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * fortunately, it is not for us to say. WP:RS, WP:DUE please. There is plenty of journalism about this question. Just report who said what. Most articles I have seen discuss the question of "is race a factor" and then go to great lengths to emphasize how it is not only about race. --dab (𒁳) 12:25, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Dab I do not know which news footage your refering to that suggests this but if you look at some of the affected areas in some cases there are no black rioters at all or are the sigificant minority such as images from rioting in Manchester and West Brom for example. We all know what the riot trigger was but the following riot activity is an issue of class not one of race. Black people maybe significantly represented within the working classes but I cannot understand why you cannot see all the represented races within the riots with all the footage available useless there is an agenda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gesnelson (talk • contribs) 05:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Judging from TV footage and press photos
Judging from TV footage and press photos-


 * Tottenham and Brixton were Blacks against Whites and Asians,
 * West Bromwich and Harmsworth were Whites against Asians,
 * Croydon was Whites and Blacks against Whites and Orientals,
 * Barking was Whites against Orientals,

whilst all the rest was multi-ethnic chaos and anarchy.Wipsenade (talk) 09:29, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

David Cameron's latest address at Downing St. today (10th)
I was watching the news, when a reporter asked David Cameron what may be the cause of the riots, and David Cameron attributed them to society's lack of responsibility (irresponsibility), and that it is an issue he has spoken of before. On this note, I posted an entry for society's irresponsibility on the main article, quoting a BBC report from yesterday (certainly new reports will flow in of the PM's latest address, but for now, the current source is valid). Searching on Wikipedia, I believe the "lack of responsibility" can be linked to Antisocial personality disorder (Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.) or Psychopathy, so in consulting the contributors, what is your perspective on a more appropriate reference; ASPD or Psychopathy? Eug.galeotti (talk) 10:40, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Neither of those suggestions. "lack of responsibility" is lack of responsibility, not everything has to have a Wikipedia page you know, per WP:NOTDICTIONARY. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 10:54, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I just thought it would be interesting to highlight some potential insight on human psychology that could help explain some of the actions, especially seeing how a report I read even mentioned of 10-year-olds even getting involved in this. But fair enough on that matter. On a separate note, I noticed someone deleted my entry with regards to David Cameron's note stating it as a "non reason." (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2011_England_riots&diff=prev&oldid=444053704) I am not entirely convinced about calling it a "non reason," especially seeing how David Cameron has been going on about this for years as part of his political campaign, and cites "irresponsibility" as the cause of the problem. Some links to support: UK rioting and looting | Page 23 and England riots: Cameron readies the water cannons. I will undo the change and see if any further action is taken. Eug.galeotti (talk) 14:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Manchester rioting - locations looted needs revision
http://technicalfault.posterous.com/afflecks-palace-looks-okay-despite-last-night?ref=nf http://en-gb.facebook.com/people/Cyberdog-Manchester/100000293075464?sk=wall "No damage has been done to Afflecks" This from a business based in Afflecks. Sunyavadin (talk) 10:43, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

The official Afflecks Twitter account has confirmed that no damage has been done and business has resumed as normal. http://twitter.com/#!/Afflecksfox/status/101189076312522752 --FLStyle (talk) 14:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Well done all
I'm proud of how you have pulled together to create a cogent and highly useful international resource. You have been civil and organised. My hat off to you all. Span (talk) 11:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion of only Black Rioters
The article within Historical Context seems to strongly suggest that all the rioters are black and makes reference to affected cities with significant populations of black people. This is clearly not the case and can be seen on any of the riot news footage through the BBC or SKY news showing significant populations of other races. I think this could be easily interpreted as racially motivated and requires immediate alteration to represent the facts. This should be altered to "sigificant populations of the working classes" which is nearer to the fact with cities such as Liverpool, West Bromwich and Manchester with black populations not that large. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gesnelson (talk • contribs) 11:58, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry, but we have significant coverage of how these riots are substantially connected with the "Black Caribbean community". Of course the rioters are not racially uniform, but these are still clearly race riots. What you are suggesting is dishonest white-washing of the facts. Of course "race riot" is an American term, and the British are reluctant to apply it to their own country. They prefer to speak about "disenfranchised ethnic minority communities", but this, in so many words, is exactly what the Americans mean when they say "race riot". You know, by way of contrast, what are not race riots? That would be the ones in Egypt, or Tunisia, or Greece, or Israel, where you have actually the majority population rising up against their politicians. Here, you have "disenfranchised minority group youths" burning down their own neighbourhoods. The simple fact that this aspect is being discussed all over the news and yet is not mentioned with a single sentence in this article is, to my mind, a strong indicator of considerable bigotry of those editing here. --dab (𒁳) 12:23, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd suspect that any claim that the riots are linked with any particular racial background would have to be very well sourced. This reliable source points out how rioters, especially in Enfield, were clearly not all black.  Also, the images of rioting from Manchester, Liverpool and Gloucester suggested that white youths were significantly represented if not the majority - no doubt a reliable source will appear on that one too. Black Kite (t) (c) 13:23, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Have to agree with Black Kite & Gesnelson here. Many sources have emphasised that the rioters come from a diverse range of races. Ironically the very search dab gives above finds any sources saying the same thing.  http://www.irishcentral.com/news/British-riots-have-important-lessons-for-Ireland-and-US---Not-just-about-race-issues-or-police-brutality-127330873.html]. Other sources mention the risk of racially linked clases particularly given the rise of ethnically based vigilante groups   (the EDL also got involved I guess not wanting said groups to take all the credit) but it doesn't seem to be a significant factor at the moment. Even many sources which mention race without emphasing the diversity of people partipating usually emphasise the class aspect more and don't touch on race that much  . Listening to most TV news reports reveals the same thing. (Tuesday I heard an interview with a girl involved in the rioting who said they deserved it because they were rich or something of that sort.) The UK has had race riots, which are called race riots, before. The reason these aren't called that is because as of now, most of the rioters are disenfranched youth of several races and many of the rioters have targeted businesses and the police without regard to race. It's 'us vs them' but not so much in terms of race but the rioters vs those perceived as wealthy. It's common to see people of various races 'rioting' together. This compares to race riots in other countries like Malaysia and Indonesia where businesses were targetted based on who owns them and people are frequently targetted based on race and where the only time you'd expect to see them together is when they are trying to kill each other. So while there may be some merit to mention race where appropriate, it needs to be done with care and definitely calling it a race riot at this time seems a step too far. The other problem is that as a developing story, it will take time before many of these aspects are clear and no sources can really provide the retrospective view we ultimately aim for. Nil Einne (talk) 15:11, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Have to agree with Nil. It's way too early to call this a race riot. Indeed, the majority of the photos I've seen of looters show white faces. And even that poor guy who lost his son who got run over in front of the mosque or whatever is on record as saying he doesn't believe the killing to be racially motivated. Of course, all this may change as this event fades into history, but right now it's premature to use the term "race riot". 68.146.71.145 (talk) 20:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * No evidence of it being a race issue. And it's a false dichotomy to suggest that the only possibilities are race riots, or uprisings against Governments(!) Mdwh (talk) 00:28, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Some Problems
1. Why isn't the issuing of travel advisories from Canada and Germany included in the international reactions section (see:http://www.680news.com/news/national/article/262871--ottawa-updates-travel-advisory-for-britain, http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_700314.html)

2. Why isn't the map showing the places of violent protests in relation to London from this discussion page included in the article? (see:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2011_England_riots#Riot_locations_for_map)

3. Professor Rodney Barker, emeritus professor of government at LSE has already made an analysis over the causes of these violent outbursts shouldn't some of his views be included in the causes section of the article perhapps that will help that part of the article to comply with wikipedia's Manual of Style (WP:MOS) instead of it just being a list.--87.202.70.34 (talk) 12:59, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Research In Motion Black Berry Messenger Usage
A government official asked for the removal of Bbm as it may have caused the riots http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/google_group_aims_id_london_rioters_facial_recognition_tools — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.112.113 (talk) 12:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The link doesn't say anything about Bbm, I guess you provided the wrong link. In any case, our article has said "Umunna also called for the BlackBerry Messenger service, used by some of the rioters to coordinate their activities, to be "temporarily disabled" between 6 p.m. and 6 a.m. BST" for a while now (I saw it a fair while before you posted your message). It also says police considered shutting down the service. If your reference refers to something else, provide the proper one and it can be discussed. Nil Einne (talk)

Attacks on photographers
The August 6 subsection currently says "A Mail on Sunday photographer was beaten and mugged.[citation needed]" In searching for a source I found this little article from The Guardian: London riots: photographers targeted by looters, which details nicely all (or at least most?) of the attacks on photographers during this riot, as of August 9. The edits continue to fly, and I durst not enter the fray, but I thought I'd let you know... Bobnorwal (talk) 14:53, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Rap to blame?
I expected more even from wikipedia! Don't get me wrong, I read the referenced article and, until the last paragraph, even agreed with it, but to claim that rap music is responsible for these riots is no different than blaming Marilyn Manson for Columbine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.0.217 (talk) 15:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I added the link to the Mirror article. I don't agree with it but Paul Routledge certanily believes rap to be a cause :-) Francium12  15:49, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is a reliability issue as much as it is a notability issue. Blaming rap music is an easy and overgeneralized target which is gravely misleading. This event in particular has no reason to be rooted or fueled by rap music more than any other youth-associated social unrest since the rise of hip-hop in the eighties. To single it out here based on one non-outstanding journalist's article written in the first person seems premature at best and in my eyes, rather unnotable. Especially contrasted with on going economic and social causes which are much more acutely specific to the tense climate at hand. SirNewtonNinegames (talk) 16:47, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh dear/ Alexandre8 (talk) 16:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

This needs a better source than the Mirror.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)