Talk:2011 Pacific typhoon season/Archive 3

WebCite Trouble
I see WebCite is not working for me sice 24 hours or so. Do you guys have the same problem or is it just me? --Anirudh Emani (talk) 08:11, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Affirmative. Though it worked a couple of hours yesterday afternoon which enabled me to archive a page or two it didn't work yesterday morning as well as today in the morning. -Matthiasb (talk) 12:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ WebCite is back online now! --Anirudh Emani (talk) 05:56, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Problem Persists. The Website can be opened but the archives cant be accessed. --Anirudh Emani (talk) 06:44, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Least active august??
Did we see the least active august this year with only 3 named storms developing within the month!? --Anirudh Emani (talk) 10:49, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * According to data from the JMA nope - 1998 had 3 NS while 79/80 had only 2 NS.Jason Rees (talk) 16:09, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

TS Noru
TS noru has been named "NONOY" by PAGASA.--Roadrunner272008 04:34, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You mean Kulap.Jason Rees (talk) 11:02, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, yeah, sorry. It has been updated anyway. Thanks! --Roadrunner272008 01:48, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Forecast map
I strongly feel that the current storm infoboxes should display the JTWC forecast map (since the JMA is copyrighted) instead of the past track. Since the warnings dont differ much, there wouldn't be any problem in using them. --Anirudh Emani (talk) 07:17, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The JTWC's information and forecasts are unofficial to the WMO. Well, the NHC is official. --[[Image:Cat_silhouette.svg|25px]]Meow &#9993;  12:40, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, its obviously unofficial.. but can we use them because the main purpose of the current storm infobox is to display the current strom information and yet it displays the past track. --Anirudh Emani's Blue square F.PNG Blue square W.PNG Blue square E.PNG 09:27, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

About Best Track Data
I think it is not necessary to use WebCitation for all RSMC Best Track Data. In fact, there is already the page for Aere to Nock-ten on the JMA website. -- Meow  16:16, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I still feel its necessarily to have a separate archive for each storm. I believe it will be easier to access them when editing articles. --Anirudh Emani (talk) 07:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep webciting them for the time being since it helps English readers verify what we are saying.Jason Rees (talk) 14:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The page from the JMA is in English. -- Meow  15:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep but the web-cited version contains a remarks section stating when X reached Y level which they do not provide that in English on the JMAs website. At the end of the day lets face it if you were a complete novice and didn't know that an STS is 50 knots, you would prefer it written down in a remarks section wouldnt you?.Jason Rees (talk) 15:34, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Seasonal Summary Image

 * Why is this needed? We already have the timeline to convey the activity of the season...
 * Also, I am assuming that the image was made in Excel/Powerpoint which is copyrighted and can't be used. (Please correct me if I am wrong).
 * If the image is deemed necessary through a consensus, I'd prefer to use a graphic similar to the one used in List of South Atlantic tropical cyclones.

&mdash; Ines  (talk)  22:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I have only added the image to provide additional information regarding number of tropical cyclones forming within the basin during the year. Also, please tell me how the images made using Excel(as i have done it) are copyrighted. Isn't it our own work!? --Anirudh Emani (talk) 08:24, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Anirudh - Copyright is a very fickle thing - while its your own work your using graphs that may be copyrighted. To try and clarify matters I have filled a request at Media copyright questions.Jason Rees (talk) 15:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Following the discussion here, we understand that the graphs made in excel are not copyrighted. Now please let me know why the graph need not be placed under the season summary timeline. --Anirudh Emani (talk) 04:42, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact, I could not understand the graphs at all... For example, I do not know the reason why there are two June but there is only one May. -- Meow  07:14, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * There are also two Augusts and Two Aprils. I feel that excel is splitting months into two to make the graph more clear. Its an XY Scatter graph and sometimes the lines go off track too. --Anirudh Emani (talk) 07:23, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Couldn't we just use the same graph type as the one in the South Atlantic page? (I'm in school now and can't search for it now...) It's a bar graph and is more "precise" in showing the amounts of storm-formation each month. (Iune) 65.223.226.122 (talk) 15:10, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

A new way
I will be adding images to the Current Storm template in a new way. We will upload one image for the the storm (Examle Nesat 2011 latest.jpg) and keep updating it similar the the 5-day graphs of the NHC. We will use that only for the template and upload separate ones for the normal template. Also, i want us to use images from the FNMOC so that its easy to upload the latest image. Thank you. --Anirudh Emani (talk) 08:19, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Please just use the Storm-Name Date Month.extension format. We can just update to the newest date if necessary. I see no reason why we can't do it this way. In addition, the MODIS images are superior in quality to the NRL Images. &mdash; Ines  (talk)  18:52, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What i feel is having to upload several images is a waste of time. However, since i am already being contradicted, i guess there is no other way! :P --Anirudh Emani (talk) 04:58, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It is better to use images from the NASA. -- Meow  05:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * There's an issue with using the NRL photos. Actually it is not clear wether the NRL using a non-US-governmental satellite makes such images a governmental work. They're not using US satellites all the time. They are using Meteosat images for the Indian Ocean for example. Or they do at this moment with Haitang. IMO, such images are not in the public domain and could be used locally in the EN:WP only as fair use with a low resuloution but should not be placed to Commons. --Matthiasb (talk) 07:26, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That was like a shot in the head!!! I never actually dreamed about that!!! The NRL using non-US-governmental satellite is still very difficult for me to believe in!! --Anirudh Emani (talk) 12:15, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with the NRL using non-US satellites; we just can't use them as they are non necessarily in the public domain. &mdash; Ines  (talk)  14:34, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay!! And yeah, i've quit doing that two days ago. So there is no point in further discussing this issue. It will only waste our time and also may violate WP:FORUM. --Anirudh Emani (talk) 09:18, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

A bug on the season summary section
After adding the latest tropical depression, legends in the section appear wrongly. There should not be a bugged grid and two repeating legends. -- Meow  07:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Lacking 90W
90W is only updated to October 7 in the September section. However, it is still active and classfied as a tropical depression by the JMA. -- Meow  07:28, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone want to write an article for Tropical Storm Washi?
Since Washi became the deadliest storm of the 2011 Pacific typhoon season, there should be an article for it. -- Meow  06:59, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * This has caught both me and CB offguard so we will be pushing an emergency article out this afternoon.Jason Rees (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright, there is Tropical Storm Washi (2011) right now. -- Meow  18:19, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

potential NYT resource
Philippine Flood Survivors Are at Risk "Survivors of flash floods that killed more than 900 people in the southern Philippines are now at risk of contracting disease, health officials said" by Floyd Whaley December 20, 2011

97.87.29.188 (talk) 00:20, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It is One Thousand on Talk:Tropical Storm Washi (2011).  99.19.40.211 (talk) 07:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Number of depressions disputed
Re. - the infobox claims "|Total depressions=39" - I would like to see a specific reference for that claim or else a reason why one is not necessary. Thanks,  Chzz  ► 23:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The amount of tropical depressions is worked out per WP:CALC, based on the fact that a tropical storm/typhoon is always a tropical depression with the JTWC have monitored 27 depressions this season, while the JMA and other warning centres have monitored 12 other systems. sources are above in the logs for each month.Jason Rees (talk) 00:04, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:CALC fails for a couple reasons


 * The section on storms has 38 sections, yet the claim is 39, so the article isn't even internally consistent.


 * The section on storms is missing the 24 December depression.


 * Adding that would make the article internally consistent, but if one depression was missed, why couldn't another one be missed?


 * Some of the listed depressions, the tenth, eleventh, and twelfth, at least, do not have a single reference. I don't think anyone made them up, but stranger things have happened.


 * So the count could be low, if something was missed. The count could be high, if something was added but didn't really qualify.


 * If a reputable source happened to provide an exhaustive list, but failed to provide a count, then it is OK to use WP:CALC to do the simple operation of counting. It is NOT an application of that policy to count things in a list in a Wikipedia article and make assertions about the number of such items in the real world.-- SPhilbrick  (Talk)  01:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually i took that depression out earlier since it doesnt have anything that can be said about it bar a single sentence or two about when it developed. I also plan to take out one or two more that only persisted for one or two rounds but i will leave them in the seasonal effects and the timeline/stats so we have a record of when they existed.Jason Rees (talk) 01:14, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Good grief, I haven't been paying close attention to the cyclone articles, but I vaguely knew there were a lot of FAs, so I assumed there were some solid editors working on them. I just glanced through a few and the terminology is atrocious. Articles implying that cyclones and hurricanes are the same thing. My search started, because I believe cyclone and depression are technical terms, but "storm" is not. It is confusing to have a section titled "storms" when the term isn't defined. Now you tell me you might remove some because there's not much to say? That's not acceptable.

Editors need to tighten up the wording here. As a start, I suggest either removing the word "storm" or clearly explaining how it is used. For example, the lede says "On average, 27 storms form in this basin every year." Besides being unsourced, to what does "27" refer? My guess is tropical depressions, but it should say that, with a cite. If you want a section called storms, which will not contain every tropical depression, you need to explain the inclusion criteria.-- SPhilbrick  (Talk)  01:57, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't consider it to be appropriate use of WP:CALC. I don't think it is a "routine calculation", I think it goes against the principle of no original research. I note that the CALC section in that policy says, "provided there is consensus among editors" - I do not currently see such consensus.  Chzz  ► 15:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I do believe it falls under WP:CALC. However, I should note that every other basin has a numbering scheme, so we could look at the last tropical depression and easily say how many storms there were in the season. That is not the case with the depressions monitored by the JMA (the official agency), as they don't name them, and they don't even refer to them after they dissipate. While many of the JMA depressions are also warned by PAGASA (so it would get a name) or the JTWC (so it would get a number), some fall through the cracks. As the original person asked, some might have been missed. In my opinion, we should only include the officially named JMA storms in the "storms" section, and then have the JTWC and PAGASA depressions in an "other storms" section. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 16:13, 27 December 2011 (UTC)