Talk:2012/Archive 1

2012 cleanup task
Realizing that, whether a coincidence or self-supporting emphasis or something beyond, I hope more people than just me have realized that 2012 is a critical year for many current-day "prophecists" (or 'buffs' or 'bluffs' or whatever you prefer calling) and whatnot, about of course the very End of the World or trascendental stuff happening this year (that explains this year having its own Apocalypse section!). Thus I feel a responsability in watching this page, particularly for the regular prancings of the fellows described above.

Besides checking for regular changes in hard facts and references in fiction, if there are additions by individuals with an apparent higher interest in popularizing their "next revealing book" or "perception-altering" website than to put actual investigation-supported predictions, I'll be there in a zip in order to mantain Wikipedia's integrity and neutrality, and comment on those changes here. It's not my job to prove or disprove theories, furthermore to question anyone's credibility.

The less alarmist stuff that happens to this page of course, the better, making my job easier. Any help or suggestions are of course appreciated. So it begins.


 * This week's "prophecist" is the Dire Gnosis page, adding a plug to the Mayan calendar comment. A link at the bottom of the page is more than enough, thank you.
 * Note at Apocalypse:"According to spiritualist writer Bob Frissell, humankind will ascend into a higher state of collective consciousness."I'm guessing you're not the only one to do that, Mr. Frisell. Would we want an extensive list of hundreds other spiritualists saying this very same thing in this page? My guess is no we don't.
 * I don't know how serious this Jenkins guy is, but if this info is as complete and supported as it should, then he should have his own page with this info included (and more extensively supported, of course). Here's the abstract I'm taking off, if you care to use it elsewhere and link it here if elaborated as suggested before:"Mayanist/ researcher John Major Jenkins explains in his book, Maya Cosmogenesis 2012, that the Maya were tracking the cycle of precession of the equinoxes, (but they used the solstices), and that the end-point in 2012 targets the conjunction of the winter solstice Sun with the galactic equator - an event that actually takes about 36 years to complete, from 1980 to 2016. He foresees a possible collective kundalini experience, as explained in his book, Galactic Alignment, and he finds supporting evidence in his next book about a lost Aztec codex, Pyramid of Fire."
 * Another note at Apocalypse:"David Flynn claims the year 2012 was encrypted in the Roswell Crash and points to ET intelligence indicating a world scale change event in support of the Mayan calendar here: http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/flynn.htm For a critique of the article, see: http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/new8.htm#ets" Good for you, mr. Flynn! But I'm guessing you're not the first one of the probably hundred others relating UFOs to mayan calendars to 2012! Good thing you do that "here:", but not on Wikipedia anymore! (This was probably put by the guys owning the second web link; so much for the point/counter-point spirit :)
 * I'm making the new "Fictional references" section for a couple of facts previously listed in the Apocalypse section, including this comment on the X-Files (which I will edit, of course):"In the X-files mythology, this day would be the beginning of colonization"
 * (So many errors in a single phrase: it happens on the X-Files Mytharc, but it's simply confusing to put it as a Mythology directly from here; 2012 is a year, not a day, these are comments about the year, not December 21; and finally, a "day" cannot "be" a beginning of colonization >.< I guess you were at least going for "ON this day...")

Besides consequently clearing the references, that's all for now (and for long, I hope), thank you. Kreachure 21:31, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Blackouts??
I'm not sure why a peak in oil production would result in blackouts, especially since in both China and the United States a great deal of electricity is produced by burning coal, a resource that in terms of longevity will last longer than oil. The proportion of power plants that burn oil to create electricity is, contrary to popular belief, proportionally quite small.

If production is at a peak then prices should skyrocket, blackouts would be a result of mass numbers of people not able to afford electricity at peak prices. (we have no more oil fields to tap, we have a supply and demand issue).

Blackouts may be more related to solar activity then anything else. 2012 is the next peak year for sunspots and other solar activity which is on an 11 year cycle. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080609124551.htm

Going overboard?
Is it just me or have the list of prophecies been getting to be a bit much lately? For example, who says there's going to be a geomagnetic reversal? What's the logic behind the thought that the temple will be rebuilt in 2012? Are these types of things actual verifiable prophecies or do we just have our own Cassandras publishing their own predictions here? --Aranae 02:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * So what exactly does the 112th pope have to do with 2012? I think I could ask the same question about several of the entries.  --Aranae 21:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * While I don't personally believe in any of these theories, I find it interesting that so many different cultures predict similar events occuring on or around 2012. In reality, none of these things will probably occur, but it is prominent enough to be listed in this article. For clarity, I have added a pseudo-disclaimer at the beginning of the section as a safety against people who could somehow read it as fact. Avengerx 21:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree that this information definitely belongs here, it's just that there have been a few unreferenced and unverifiable statements and/or statements where it's unclear how they apply to the year 2012. The statements probably belong, they just need cleanup so they don't just look like one person writing one crackpot theory that they decided to add to some online encyclopedia that let's them get away with it.  --Aranae 02:26, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I see what your saying, and I'd be happy to attempt to fix it. However, I am currently working on finals (college) and am too busy. If no one fixes it by early January, I'll hop in and clean it up. Avengerx 03:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Tibetian Monks
I removed a line about Tibetian monks using remoting viewing to say alies would come in 2012. The only source as an editorial. 67.172.137.17 17:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't see why it's any less valid than the bit about the Bible code or Malachy's predictions. -- Vary 18:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * If you use google there are many sources. Whether or not you like the concept isn't important. Unless you can find a serious lack of information behind it, then it should stay. Avengerx 20:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * So your logic is, "Add whattever you want, and only take information away if we disprove it"???


 * The source quoted for that is but the India Daily is as reliable a source as Pravda, The Sunday Sport, The Weekly World News or The Onion - i.e. it is made up. I've been monitoring their output for a while and while amusing it has no basis in reality. (Emperor 03:09, 24 March 2006 (UTC))


 * Problem is _they_ dont give any sources, or even name the monks in question. Its all right this is mentioned, but I suggest a different wording, 'it is claimed that unnamed tibetan monks' etc, so that its clear that noone can really confirm this allegation. aryah

NPOV regarding religions?
Why arte Egyptian and Mayan religious theories not included under the subheader 'Religious Theories'?

Is it not a violation of neutral point of view to seperate out some religious theories as 'religious' and others by culture, indicating that in some way the Egyptian and Mayan stories are less valid than the Christian, Jewish and especially Tibetal Alien Invasion stories?


 * No, what it is stating is that the Egyptian and Mayan theories are MYTHOLOGY, and no longer practiced. The ancient Egyptians and the ancient Mayans no longer exist, and are very different from the modern, existant religions. It never ceases to amaze me how some people go out and look for conflict. Avengerx 00:24, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Wow, you accuse the first poster of looking for a conflict but you place the MYTHOLOGIES of "modern" religions about those of historic ones. If people are taking seriously the end of the world as predicted by the Mayans, that constitutes the blind faith of religion (believing in an untestable theory).  Of course end times MYTHOLOGY always has one built in test.  The Christianity of today is very different then that of the Spanish Inquisition but belief in the current faith does not require conviction to previous practices.  People believe in this Mayan stuff so it constitutes current religious observation status.  PS:  By "modern" religion,   I assume you were referring to Scientology and Mormonism or is a 2000 year old institution still considered "modern"? 69.219.153.147 09:22, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The Mioans said that the world would end in 2012. They haven't been wrong yet, they predicted WWI and WWII not to mention Katrina and the tidal wave in Asia. This give me reason to believe that the world will end in 2012.

Who are the "Mioans?" They don't have a Wikipedia page... Or perhaps they reached back from their homes in Mioia to the future to delete their page... Do you mean the "Minoans?" Or the "Mayans", like everyone's talking about. I don't think any of them predicted any of those events. What's your source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Druj (talk • contribs) 00:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

2012 cleanup task II
Hello again, I leave this article barely 6 months alone and it is again full of prophetic and religious brew-haha! Oh well, I think 2012 is a more famous year than I originally thought! But, that's what I'm here for! So, whatever this significant year holds for us then, let's keep our heads on the ground today!

To avoid complications, I'll make clear three conditions:
 * If there are no sources to support what is being said (inside or outside the site), then it's not meriting to put them here. Especially since so many wacky and sometimes delicate things are being said here with no way to corroborate them, 'kay?


 * It's not my, and in fact anyone else's, job to prove or disprove things being said here, since we have to wait 7 years to find out if they are true!! But, as pointed before, you must have supporting arguments and sources (as with any other theory anywhere!)


 * Anything which doesn't relate significantly to anything happening exactly in 2012 doesn't belong here. This means that if you're talking about the end of the world and stuff, but don't relate it with sources to this year, you're in the wrong place. This goes also for esoteric sites which aren't focused in any date of '12.

So it continues.


 * On December (busiest month of that year, I'm sure!), according to the astronomy source, there will be a "Striking" aligning of the celestial bodies. It's arguable whether it's striking or not, but I think astronomers would be more inclined to say (at least) "remarkable". So I'll put it this way, but it's a minor change, so I DO NOT expect anyone arguing on this (or even noticing!>.<)
 * Since there appeared so many points regarding mayan and egyptian "prophecies", someone divided the subsections for clearer listing, but it's better listing to notice that they all mostly talk about the same prophecies! So, shortening the list and condensing the facts (like the winter solstice stuff) will make things way more understandable.
 * I don't know why this was under "Mayan/egyptian theories"!"Interpreted by millennialists as a time when there will be an evolutionary change in human consciousness brought about by a series of world changing events or revelations. Following this period of upheaval they believe we will begin a new 1,000 year cycle in which peace, enlightenment and our environment take priority."If you check the Millenialist page, you'll find that their focus is not at all this year (hence the term millenialist, as in every thousand years, i.e. year 2000, maybe? I'm no expert on this, but does this make sense to the layman?) So, as stated above, it's not worth mentioning it here.
 * Wow, big words! The predicted 2012 geomagnetic reversal of the Earth's poles (in conjunction with a solar-magnetic-reversal) brings into question the Schumann resonance of Earth and the human biophysical response to such an electromagnetic shift. It is believed that this "geomagnetic reversal" last occurred some 780,000 years ago, (approx. 3 cycles of the 26,000 year "precession of the according to this official FACT), but you sure need a remedial course on your maya calendar! A Bactun for the Long Count calendar is 144,000 days, which is roughly 394 gregorian years. But since you talk about thirteen bactuns, that means you're saying that between 1776 and 2012 there are 5,128 gregorian years!, which (gasp!) is not AT ALL equal to 260 mayan years. Thus, I'd recommend a math review along with that. (If you meant something else and just screwed up the baktuns and katuns,
 * More egyptian stuff:"Other pyramid theories based on Egyptian mythology estimate that the Giza pyramid complex will come into synchronous conjunction with the constelation Orion (which it was modeled after) on 21 December, 2012 at 11:11 UTC. Although this notion is incorrect, this date does include an alignment of the Sphinx's eastwardly gaze and the point at which the planet Uranus, symbolically the mythological Creator and father of the Titans, lies on the horizon. Likewise, 21 December 11:11 UTC corresponds to an alignment of the southern-facing King's Chamber shaft of Khufu and the planets Mars and Pluto in the constellation Sagittarius, the archer. Symbolically, these heavenly bodies represent war and the underworld (or transformation) respectively. Pluto takes a generation to pass through a single sign or constellation implying (on an astrological level) that the generation born in these times will witness war and transformation." Some of external links are again for astronomical charts, but they do not explain anything about the conjunctions. If these actually will happen, show us someplace that they will, and how! Also, the pluto astrological symbolisms are unnecessary, simply because they don't inform us about egyptian meanings of the purported alignments (as far as I know).
 * I had removed this before for lack of sources:"Tibetan Monks specialising in remote viewing predict that divine extra-terrestrials will intervene at a point where the world's governments are about to deploy weapons of mass destruction. Adding to this, the Tibetan Monks say that the world is not ready to be destroyed and that our Earth is blessed and being saved continuously from all kinds of hazards that Mankind is not even aware of." Now, I just wanted to put a little comment on this: OMG it's not BS??? Crazy India people and their wacky news!
 * Pope stuff:"The Prophecy of the Popes, attributed to Saint Malachy, speculated that the next pontiff would be from the Order of Saint Benedict or Gloria Olivae. In April 2005 former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was elected to the papalcy, later adopting the name Pope Benedict XVI and supposedly fulfilling this prophecy. Saint Malachy predicted that this Pope would reign during the beginning of the tribulation which Jesus spoke of and sometime before a future pope described in the prophecy as 'Peter the Roman'.  According to St. Malachy, the 112th Pope's pontificate will end in the destruction of the city of Rome and the Last Judgement. Pope Benedict XVI, the current Pope, is #111 in the list. He himself stated that his 'pontificate will not be a long one' due to his age, and many have speculated that it is within reason that he could pass away before 2012. However since the doomsday Pope (Peter the Roman) is not assigned a number (we only say that it is the 112th Pope because it is the one after the 111th Pope), it is possible that the #111th Pope and Peter the Roman are the same person, which means that the lesser tribulation could begin within the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI."While most of this is true according to the external links, it doesn't need to be so long, only explaining about Pope Benedict XVI so much is of no need (And that's what the external links right after are there for).
 * Apocalypse in the making?"Plans to rebuild the Jewish holy Temple in Israel have been on the drawing board since June 2005. Predictions from the Book of Daniel depict what is refered to as the abomination of desolation, a restoration and then destruction of the Jewish Temple in Israel. This is related to the Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks.  According to Daniel's predictions, 'From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days./ Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.' In total, this timespan is just 45 days short of the predicted 7 year tribulation of the Book of Revelations, locating the date sometime in the year 2012. [ http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44672 ]"Sadly (for jewish and christian doomsdayers), no. There is no mention on the external news of the actual planned dates for beginning and ending the temple reconstruction, so from where did you assume you could count to get 2012? (Um, aren't 1,290 days 3.5 years? How did you calculate, really??) Also, isn't the Seventy Weeks prophecy already supposed to have happened? I suggest you check your math too, and your biblical history too (if you have time:).
 * People have complained about the subtitles on the Apocalyptic (apocalyptic indeed... to fix, that is:) section, and after the changes mentioned above, I think that renders them useless (so less quarrelling for us all! Yay!).
 * There are way too many external links for this and in fact for any kind of article in Wikipedia. Since some are intended plugs with nothing to do with 2012, and others are simply too short in their content of 2012 (again, there's already more than enough links for anyone's needs!),  these being gone will shorten the list a lot. Still, I'll be leaving some links that are suspicious as of the veracity of their claims (like the Schumann resonance ones), so that people can make their own opinions about these, and can then do something about it if that's their feeling. (Check the page's history if you want to know which links I removed, they're too many to list here!)

Whew! That was a mouthful! I'll get busy making the changes now. As always, comments and suggestions (and help) are welcome, and keep the good work on Wikipedia up! Thank you! Kreachure 22:46, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

OK OK that's fine, but has anyone mentioned anything about the second coming being in 2012? A lot of people assumed that 2000 would be the year but it is quite possible that 2012 could be the actual year! What's a few years over a period of 2000? I don' believe anyone throughout the ages has ever been able to accuratley predict dates for various Bible prophecies. I have some thought on this issue which I will no doubt share at a later date. In the meantime, it would be interesting to have other comments on the subject.

Move "apocalyptic" content to new page?
I predict a sizable accumulation of material here...Perhaps it would be best to mention briefly that there are many predictions of apocalypse/transformation in 2012, and move the bulk of it to 2012 Apocalypse theories or somesuch. Dev1n 03:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think it is necessary yet, but if more material does appear, I think it would make sense. Avengerx 04:28, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I strongly agree to make 2012 Apocalypse theory a separate lemma. Rob, the Netherlands


 * I disagree with the choice of title, the more scholarly works dont believe an apocalyptic scenario would happen - but that doesnt discount the period of turmoil as a result of geomagnetic reversal for instance... um lets say why not '2012 predictions' --86.8.240.91 17:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Calendar
Elsewhere on Wikipedia, the weeks on calandars start on Sunday. On this page (and a few others), it starts on Monday. Why? I know consistency on Wikipedia is not considered important, but it does look strange. 209.197.136.185 15:55, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Questions
Are there any reports of creating space ships or portals (wormholes) to flee Earth in case something goes wrong?

Um... That would be a no. Grand  master  ka  04:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Darn

Lisa Launch?
The article LISA claims the launch will be in 2015 or later, yet, this article claims it to be indefinite in 2012. Anyone know the correct date on that?

No. But I removed the reference. Grandmasterka 10:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

New 2012 paper
There is a new paper out on 2012:

Robert K. Sitler (2006) The 2012 Phenomenon New Age Appropriation of an Ancient Mayan Calendar. Nova Religio. 9 (3). 24-38.

It helps resolve a lot of the issues about where the 2012 date sneaked into the New Age community (José Argüelles) and how reliable his calendar is (not very). I've extracted a few pertinent quotes but it's well worth tracking down if you are interested in this topic. I doubt it'll slow the wave that will grow over the next 6 and a half years (2012 Terror?) but it is a refreshing take on this given the rest of the general output on his subject ;) (Emperor 03:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)) I know!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.210.16.185 (talk) 20:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Singularity Timetable

 * Singularity Timetable predicts a Technological Singularity to happen in 2012:
 * 2006 -- True AI
 * 2007 -- AI Landrush
 * 2009 -- Human-Level AI
 * 2011 -- Cybernetic Economy
 * 2012 -- Superintelligent AI
 * 2012 -- Joint Stewardship of Earth
 * 2012 -- Technological Singularity

That's interesting... Human-level AI in three years? The robots I see still run into walls sometimes. This seems like just another product of the apocalyptic obsession with this year. Grand master  ka  05:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Research what you're talking about before you start blabbing, please. True AI would be able to improve and replicate itself. The idea behind the singularity is that the cycle of improvement speeds itself up until the speed becomes infinite, which would happen fast -- think of the old trick with the pennies and the chessboard (put one cent on the first tile, two on the next, four on the third, and so forth, doubling the amount every time).
 * It sounds unlikely and there are various physical restrictions (namely resources), but it's logically sound. -- 88.153.33.63 (talk) 19:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Tibetan monks
"It is claimed that unnamed Tibetan monks specialising in remote viewing predict that divine extra-terrestrials will intervene at a point where the world's govern..."

Indiadaily.com runs a lot of fictional stories (although it usually runs legit stories). Like this:

"Why did the type IV extraterrestrial civilization in Hyperspace orchestrate the artificial big bang in the massive particle collider?"

It's probably best to remove that entry.

Mexico as the ruler of the Universe
Do the Mayan prophecies consider Mexico as the next universal ruler?

In a word: no, the Mayan prophecies are about the end of an era (not the world) this end is thought as either an awakening or a destruction The Mayans could have never known about Mexico existing because central America had no countries at the time.

Fraud
I can remember when I was a kid, people where I lived thought the world was coming to an end and Mikhail Gorbechev's birthmark was the sign of the beast. Well, the USSR is gone, so I guess they were wrong. But then, they decided that the real end of the world would come in 2000. Well, that was six years ago, so I guess they were wrong then, too. Then, they said, "Well, Jesus was actually born in 4 AD. So the world will end in 2004". Guess they were wrong about that one, too. Now, we've got the Mayan Calendar, the Prophecy of the Popes, and Nostradamus. This isn't just a recent phenomenon, either. The world's been coming to an end for a while, now. The early christians thought Jesus was going to end the world within his lifetime. Now, the question is, why? Why do we keep hearing doom scenarios, complete with a specific date, and once that date comes and goes, without any apocalypse, the same people who warned us about the bogus apocalypse come up with a new date? Well, it sells books and tabloids, doesn't it? Churches make a lot of money when people, scared for their souls, donate all their cash hoping to buy God off. The real question ought to be, why do we keep falling for it? Instead of worrying about making this world a better place, or improving ourselves through expressions of compassion and reason, why do we fear the end that is always so near? Why are we paranoid and gullible enough to buy into this scam? 2012 will come and go, and on 1 January 2013, I predict that some hack will write that it has been predicted by the ancients that the world will end in 2015. Wandering Star 04:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree! It's become very fashionable among young folks to think that the big three Monotheistic religions are absurd while buying stuff that is equally as preposterous simply because it came from a culture outside of their own. Yeah, the Mayans had some accurate astronomical measuring devices. they also performed human sacrifice. After Dec 12, 2012,(when nothing of significance as relating to prophecy happens) believers will find some way to keep believing. Or maybe some event will happen, like some hated dictator will die, or there will be a cure for aids or something, and they'll be like "see? that's the gigantic change that the Mayans predicted!" A lot of beliefs seem to me to be a function of a similar brain impulse as OCD. Like all the ritual and superstition.Morningwindow

One thing to consider before dismissing the 2012 myth as complete unfounded quackery: the ancient Mayans did have an ACCURATE calendar for their time, which aligned with modern-day proven cycles of sunspots and movements of the cosmos and the moon, and THEY are the true origins of the 2012AD prophecy, as their calendar of the current cycle in the evolution of mankind ends in that year (and began in 3113BC). I would say their calendar based on sunspots and galactic cycles would have much more scientifically-proven credibility than our own inaccurate taxpayer calendar based on Roman Gods and pagan myths and propagated by the Roman Catholic Church. Whether the significance of the year 2012 is true or not is to be determined, but it is a FACT that the Mayans predicted this "move to a new level of consciousness" or "end of the world as we know it" in that year, according to current interpretations of their works. 2012 is not a "new date" that's been picked by those who were proven wrong by the 2000 and 2004 predictions.. it has been standing since the days of the Maya. There are many books that scientifically study this calendar system.. admittedly there are a lot of kooky books that are nearly impossible to read and even harder to verify. I would recommend checking out the works of Maurice Cotterell if interested. Of course, since he is original research, I would not cite his works in the main article until independently verified. And one last point -- at no point that we know of in the history of mankind have we been so connected in communication, has knowledge been so readily available, nor have we had the ability to collectively destroy such vast quantities of life through use of today's advanced weaponry. deronde —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.147.234.222 (talk • contribs) 20:44, June 17, 2007 (UTC)

actually the prediction/myth is not a fact, it only is stated that its the end of one of the Mayan (mythological) ages. (unsigned by an unknown user)

Further, please reference the 'Age of Aquarius' crapola that the 60's generation extolled so vocally. That was based on astrology too, and it claimed that come the year 2000, there would be some great cosmic awakening that would put an end to war and open our minds to free love and dope. Guess what? There's over 3,000 dead American kids and several hundred thousand dead Iraqis who can all attest to the fact that war has not ended. Astrology is not science. It is not testable, which is a criterion for any theory purporting to be scientific. The scientific method itself requires every hypothesis to be tested for veracity, rigorously and by many different people, before it can be considered a legitimate claim. And yet, no astrologer since the dawn of time has managed to carry out such an experiment. You know, people used to look at dead animals' entrails to portend the future too, and they also analyzed the shape of somebody's skull, all claiming to be scientific markers. And it was all 100% bullshit, just like medieval claims that any woman who looked at you cross was a witch or that left-handed people were the spawn of the devil. Listen, it's scary to admit that we don't know all the answers. Nobody, not you nor I nor any priest or astrologer or president can predict when they or the world will meet it's end, or how. I can't tell you what will happen next in your life, and no scientist of any merit would even dare to try. You, and I, and all of us, exist in darkness, with hallucinatory dreams of what exists beyond what we can sense. We hold candles such as reason up to illuminate a small patch of that darkness, and it helps a little. But as that tiny light flickers, it is all too easy to think the shadows it casts are real, and they aren't. There are no ghosts or demons, and no accurate predictions of the future either. And even if you have an accurate calendar based on the movements of the planets, the belief that such a calendar will tell you when the end of time is nigh is as much of a stretch as saying that because you have a good pair of eye glasses, that you also have X-ray vision. It's okay not to know all the answers. If you did, wouldn't life be so very boring? I mean, what would be left to learn? What newness would exist, anywhere? Why bother living, if you know so clearly that you are about to die? Live, and leave death to those who have already passed. Wandering Star

Precession of the equinoxes
I tried to update the 2012 page, but there is a problem with wikipedia, or the server, or something. I cannot edit the page. What I wanted to post was the following:

--- There are misconceptions about exactly what the astronomical conditions are that lie behind the (increasingly legendary) December 21, 2012 winter solstice. There are two things that will occur, astronomically, in 2012 (very roughly speaking, time-wise ... see below). First, it will be the first time in approximately 26,000 years (the time required for one complete precession of the earth about its axis) that the equatorial plane and the ecliptic plane intersect at approximately the position of sunrise at the winter solstice. The exact time of the winter solstice on December 21, 2012 is 11:11 a.m. GMT. (The equatorial plane is the spacial plane in which Earth's equator lies, and the ecliptic plane is the plane in which lies Earth's mean orbit around the sun – the equatorial plane and the ecliptic plane are separated by an angle of approximately 23 degrees.) What is often not recognized is that the alignment of the December 21, 2012 winter solstice sunrise with the intersection between the equatorial and ecliptic planes AND the alignment of that intersection with the center of the Milky Way galaxy is an event that is not dependent just upon the precession of Earth's axis. It is primarily dependent upon the length of time it takes for the Milky Way galaxy to complete one rotation. The rotation time of the Galaxy is about 225 million years. Only once in 225 million years does the intersection of the ecliptic and equatorial planes at winter equinox align with the center of the galaxy. This will occur around 2012 – plus or mines a few million years. So 2012's galactic-center alignment is an event that has not occurred for 225 million years – plus or minus a few million years.

Here are the caveats: The intersection of the ecliptic and equatorial planes at winter solstice can be estimated only to an accuracy of about plus-or-minus 30 years (for technical reasons regarding the accuracy of astronomically plotting the precession of Earth's axis). Moreover, the alignment of said winter-solstice intersection with the galactic center can be estimated with an accuracy of plus-or-minus several million years. This is because it is not known precisely where the "galactic center" is – i.e., it is not possible to define exactly where the supermassive black hole of 3.7 million solar masses is, which is believed to be the center of our Galaxy. The position of the "center" is known, but there is a slight margin of error involved. Given that the Galaxy is 80,000 to 100,000 light years in diameter and about 1,000 light years in thickness (Recently the thickness was discovered to be greater then this, please check for accurate thickness), it is not possible to define where the "center" lies more closely than a few hundred light years. This would imply, given the rotation time of 225 million years, that the ecliptic-equatorial-galactic-planes alignment cannot not be defined more closely than plus-or-minus a few million years, at best. Thus, while the December 21, 2012 is the end of the ancient Mayan calendar, and while the winter solstice will perhaps be a remarkable mass-psychological phenomenon, in terms of astronomy it could be considered a non-event.


 * The comment above (first introduced here) is wrong in several respects. Yes, one complete precessional cycle takes 26000 years. This means that the alignment in question happens every 26000 years. The 225-million-year orbit of the sun about the galactic center is irrelevant, except that the position of the galactic center (with respect to the extragalactic background, as seen from Earth) will have shifted by a fraction of an arcsecond each time. If you were to insist, not just that the solstice sun should line up with the galactic center, but that it should do so in Sagittarius (more precisely, that it should do so against that portion of the extragalactic background in the sky region we have called Sagittarius), then you could talk about a 225-million-year cycle.


 * Also, while we apparently do not know the distance to Sagittarius A*, the central black hole, very well (Wikipedia cites an uncertainty of over a thousand light-years), we do know the direction with considerable precision. If the criterion is that the solstice sun should line up with Sagittarius A*, or that it should get as near as possible, then one really should be able to pick out a particular year. The charts on this page (if you can make them out) suggest what would be involved. But the rational supposition would be that the Long Count was calibrated only against galactic-center features which are visible to the naked eye.


 * I previously wrote about these matters in this revision (why it was deleted in the next edit, I don't know). Mporter 08:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is a related attempt to plot the yearly shifts; in this case, the movement of the "solstitial colure" (the great circle or meridian on which the solstices lie) with respect to the intersection of the ecliptic and the galactic equator. Mporter 06:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What you wanted to post doesn't have a neutral point of view-- it wouldn't be good for Wikipedia.--24.45.184.21 (talk) 14:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect information on December 21st 2012
The following item is not correct (as far as I can not tell):

December 21 - 99942 Apophis (2004 MN4)a large near earth object will make a direct pass to the earths orbit, some information points to pole shift and a peturbed earth orbit, resulting in catastrophic events.

99942 Apophis will not be passing the Earth at all during 2012, c.f: http://newton.dm.unipi.it/cgi-bin/neodys/neoibo?objects:Apophis;main (also see http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/risks/a99942.html) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riftor (talk • contribs) 19:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The following item is ALSO not correct, or should be put somewhere other than "scheduled events":

"21st December, according to Nostradamus' prediction, Zombie's will invade the earth."

Not to mention syntax incorrect. Or perhaps he means that the collective will of the zombie invades? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Druj (talk • contribs) 16:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Verifying the Theories
There are too many theories about 2012, in my opinion, to ignore. You could say, well, there was a lot of theories about the year 2000. There was, but most of those theories were born just out of ignorance. In 1999 you could set your VCR to 01-01-00 and it wouldn't explode. But if you combine these theories and apply modern day terms to them (Sumeria=Syria, Babylonia=Baghdad, Jews=Israel) and it makes a scary theory (which I dont really believe, but its interesting). Here's the site where you can get the whole explanation, but I'll just give you the jist of it.


 * Some of this information might be a little off from what the site says, I dont remember the years exactly.Source

2009 - War breaks out in the middle east, Syria vs Iraq most likely. 2010 - The Muslim world is at war but eventually it is settled and they are unified (And this is accomplished by the "Dont blame each other, blame the infidels!" tactic) 2011 - This new coallition declares war on Europe and attacks Spring 2012 - Europe is losing the war and alot of territory is lost to them Winter 2012 - (Possibly on the Mayan Doomsday) Rome is attacked by the Arabs and the Vatican is destroyed 2012 - 2023 - Europe loses the war and the Arabs dominate the world temporarily. Chirstianity is outlawed 2025 - Christians unite (Protestants unite with Roman and Eastern Orthrodox Catholics) 2039 - 2045 - Another war in which the West takes back Europe and the Arabs are driven out and defeated After 2045 - The End of the Lesser Tribulation


 * Actually, there were many more theories about the year 2000 then just Y2K. Earthquakes, war (focused highly in the middle east, how original), plagues, famine so bad "man became an eater of man" and such... it isn't really all that different. Also, you should sign your posts by adding four tildes to the end. 70.125.132.204 (talk) 09:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, plus the ancient calenders end in 2012, not 2000. Neurolanis (talk) 01:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)