Talk:2012 Burgas bus bombing/Archive 2

Ongoing NPOV issue, user Activism1234
Activism1234 has consistently carved up this article in a NPOV accusatory way against Iran. The "Hezbollah and Iran" section is a long list of unsubstantiated anonymous sources in official but BIASED Western/American outlets (cf. NYT's coverage of WMD). Should I really be reduced to quoting PressTV to add balance? I would recommend that someone take over this dispute, since Activism1234 has proven himself wildly biased and aggressive towards other users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.223.243.6 (talk) 17:43, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:IDONTLIKEIT is no reason to remove properly referenced info that has been there for weeks. Your talk page shows an issue of tenditious, biased editing. You also inserted your own personal unreferenced biased opinion into the article.  Press TV is NOT a reliable source also, so please don't use that.  We write based on reliable sources.  This is what reliable sources said.  Whether you like that or not is not my concern. -- Activism  1234  17:49, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, there are plenty of statements in that passage I myself added from either Bulgaria or White House that they can't say for sure yet whether Hezbollah did it or a local Hezbollah cell didn't do it. Please don't make such unfounded accusations.  The info here has been here for weeks and is properly referenced info.  -- Activism  1234  17:50, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Also please be aware that many of these officils are anonymous. Please also be aware it's all attributed, and is all in internationally reliable media outlets.  That's how Wikipedia works, we use reliable references.  We don't write based on whether we like or dislike something, or our personal opinon. Thanks. -- Activism  1234  17:52, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * PressTV has the same level of reliability as the NYT. Show me documentation otherwise. I'd in fact refer you to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Requesting a non-biased user to address this issue with "Hezbollah and Iran" section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.223.243.6 (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That's ridiculous. Good try. -- Activism  1234  18:38, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Go on and cite me a WP policy to include, say, the BBC but exclude PressTV. Otherwise WP:IDONTLIKEIT --192.223.243.6 (talk) 18:41, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * See WP:FRINGE and WP:RELIABILITY. Sources like Pravda, PressTV, and in some cases Xinhua News Agency are generally not considered reliable.  So no, if PressTV says "Zionists control the world" and "The Zionists are responsible for all evil and terrorism," we don't consider it reliable to include. Good try though saying it's as reliable as the NYT.  That really says it all... -- Activism  1234  18:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not saying that PressTV = BBC/NYT. You've failed however, to rule PressTV out. You might WP:IDONTLIKEIT but you've failed to qualify that publishing institution as either WP:FRINGE or WP:RELIABILITY. Simply your biased opinion. --192.223.243.6 (talk) 18:51, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ifi we want to write something from the Iranian government, yes, we can use PressTV. But otherwise, it's [|cautioned] not to use it, as it's an unreliable propaganda mouthpiece and spouts a lot of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that we can't consider reliable.  We're better off using sources like the BBC, NYT, etc, of which we have in this article. -- Activism  1234  18:55, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This link doesn't have a ruling either way, just the same debate we're having --192.223.243.6 (talk) 19:00, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This is pointless. I'm arguing with an editor who thinks PressTv is as reliable as the New York Times. Good day... -- Activism  1234  18:56, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Both are inherently biased. FunkMonk (talk) 07:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Well ive tretitled the section so it highlights it as an accusation and not fact. Meanwhile if Iran accuses hthe USA of carrying it out, sure add that too.Lihaas (talk) 07:37, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Latest news is some pretty weak "evidence" against Hezbollah: "The Bulgarian authorities are making quite a strong assumption that this is the work of Hizbullah," Wainwright said. "From what I've seen of the case — from the very strong, obvious links to Lebanon, from the modus operandi of the terrorist attack and from other intelligence that we see — I think that is a reasonable assumption." http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/70802-bulgaria-says-hizbullah-behind-bus-attack-u-s-and-israel-urge-europe-to-take-action

Undue weight to Hezbollah speculation
The Hezbollah/Iran section is a bloated piece of baseless speculation. It should be cut down to much less. FunkMonk (talk) 04:08, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It is not baseless - The section appears to be entirely based on reliable sources. Marokwitz (talk) 06:15, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * And the sources themselves only cite speculation. FunkMonk (talk) 07:33, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That's your opinion, and not a valid reason for censoring reliably sourced content. If you feel the NY Times is not reliable, feel free to discuss that on the RS noticeboard.Marokwitz (talk) 07:47, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You're not getting the point. The news corps themselves are "reliable", but all they cite is speculation from American and Israeli officials. There is no proof at all. We don't give so much room for mere speculation elsewhere on recent event articles. FunkMonk (talk) 07:50, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * According to WP:DUE neutrality requires that each article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. This seems to be a very prominent viewpoint and therefore deserves significant mention. The article states very clearly that there is no conclusive proof that Hezbollah or Iran were involved, and fairly differentiates between facts and speculations.Marokwitz (talk) 07:59, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah key word fairly, not UNDUE over-emphasis on the biggest section of the article to the opinions of US officials that are clearly partisan in talking about Iran (or you dispute that too?)Lihaas (talk) 07:38, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Bomber identity confirmed
Hello guys. Today's news reveal the identity of the bomber. The article is here in Bulgarian and translated by Google in English. From the article "Bourgas airport bomber was clearly recognized by his former teacher - radical Salafi leader Omar Bakri. Bakri himself said this in an interview with the Center for Middle East Studies, especially given for "24 hours". The bomber, whose picture appeared in the media after the attack, is a Swedish citizen Mehdi Ghazali." Criscross2 (talk) 06:57, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ - thanks! -- Jethro  B  15:57, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Hezbollah accused on flimsy grounds
Before anyone goes on a rampage, notice the careful wording, indicating that the evidence is flimsy at best: "...Bulgarian officials, wary about jumping to conclusions and concerned about alienating European Union allies, needed more proof before they would determine that the attack had been the work of Hezbollah.Indeed, Mr. Tsvetanov chose his words carefully on Tuesday, leaving room for uncertainty. “A reasonable assumption, I repeat a reasonable assumption, can be made that the two of them were members of the militant wing of Hezbollah,” he said. ..." FunkMonk (talk) 03:20, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 * And there you have it: "The chief prosecutor in charge of the Bulgarian investigation revealed in an interview published in early January that the evidence available was too scarce to name any party as responsible, and that investigators had found a key piece of evidence that appeared to contradict it." FunkMonk (talk) 16:25, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Latest new is that as the corrupt, pro-American leaders of Bulgaria were replaced, the charges suddenly diminished. http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Local-News/2013/Jun-05/219519-bulgaria-now-says-hezbollahs-role-in-bus-bombing-unproven.ashx#axzz2VKnamuZG FunkMonk (talk) 10:09, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on 2012 Burgas bus bombing. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.timesofisrael.com/bulgaria-reveals-new-evidence-on-hezbollah-burgas-link/
 * Added tag to http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/19/12824974-bulgaria-official-suspected-suicide-bomber-in-tourist-attack-carried-michigan-license?chromedomain=usnews&lite
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120825194747/http://libertarianreview.us/2012/07/20/netanyahu-blames-iran-for-attack-in-bulgaria-in-record-time/ to http://libertarianreview.us/2012/07/20/netanyahu-blames-iran-for-attack-in-bulgaria-in-record-time/

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About the sources
Lets compare this:

Jerusalem post, http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Bulgaria-cites-clear-signs-Hezbollah-behind-Burgas-bombing-320240

"There are clear signs that say Hezbollah is behind the Burgas bombing," Interior Minister Tsvetlin Yovchev told reporters..."

and this:

Bulgarian Ministry of the Interior: https://www.mvr.bg/press/%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B4/%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8/news130718_02

Tsvetlin Yovchev: "The evidence gathered so far indicates that Hezbollah is behind the attack, but in order to speak of robust evidence from a procedural point of view, more time is needed." (translated via https://translate.google.com)

There is a big difference in the meaning if we skip the end of the sentence. Please, don't make the wikipedia a mirror of the Israeli yellow pages, use the official sources when it is possible!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShushkoMushko (talk • contribs) 23:52, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Edit request
Lets start with removing all Iranian/Lebanon and Israeli/USA sources because of 'Identifying and using independent sources' rule violation. ShushkoMushko (talk) 18:30, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Edit request 2
1. Reconstruct the page: - remove the leading part for Hezbollah investigation in the Iranian part because the Bulgarian authority responsible for the investigation of this crime did not accepted as reliable the data leading to Hezbollah, except the following part:

"On 25 July 2013, the Bulgarian Interior Ministry released photographs of two suspects in the bombing: Australian citizen Malid Farah (also known as "Hussein Hussein"), and Canadian citizen Hassan al-Haj. "

which is better to be moved in Description part.

-Remove duplicated which nobody saw till now no matter the bigger interest on this page: "On 18 July 2014, Bulgaria announced that they identified the bomber as dual Lebanese-French citizen named Mohamad Hassan El-Husseini.[1]"

2. Reconstruct the Hezbollah/Iranian part by adding details about the bulgarian investigation and trial. I will only copy/paste from the souces and qoute from the sources, because some of them are primary, without any personal "novel interpretations". The two used primary sources are the europol's official site and Bulgarians Ministry of the Interior official site. They are not "written by people who are directly involved", they are not Izreali relatives or a Hezbollah members.

-Add: In Agust 8, 2012, on his visit in London the Bulgarian Prime Minister Boyko Borisov said: "We have not received such specific information so far and I have asked David to provide it if there is any because, I repeat, these are a heavy charges." After the meeting, Boyko Borissov said that David Cameron, like Israeli officials, has announced that there is information that Iran and the Hezbollah group are involved in the Burgas bombing. The official statement of Bulgarian Ministry of the Interior represented by Tzvetan Tzvetanov published on the official page of the ministry was "We have tracked their entire activity on the territory of Australia and Canada, and we have data on funding and sympathy for Hezbollah." What can be done as a reasoned assumption, I want to repeat - a well-guessed assumption is that the two persons who are identified with their true identity, belonged to the military formation of Hezbollah." Subsequently the assumption was dismissed by the Bulgarian Specialized Criminal Court.

-Old/moved from leading: Tsvetanov stated that the two suspects had Canadian and Australian passports and lived in Lebanon. On 5 June 2013, new Bulgarian Foreign Affairs Minister Kristian Vigenin stated that: "There is no conclusive evidence for the implication of Hezbollah in the July 2012 bombing in Burgas. The authorities continue to gather evidence." However, two weeks later a Bulgarian representative to the European Union revealed that investigators discovered new evidence that implicates Hezbollah operatives were connected to the terrorist attacks. Investigators found that the forged documents used by the perpetrators of the attack were facilitated by a man with ties to Hezbollah.

-Edit/Remove the incomplete Jerusaleem post quote, add the full Yovchev's statement from the primary source Bulgarian Ministry of the Interior/moved: In July 2013, the newly appointed Bulgarian Interior Minister Tsvetlin Yovchev stated: "there are clear signs that say Hezbollah is behind the Burgas bombing, but in order to speak of robust evidence from a procedural point of view, more time is needed."

-Old/moved from leading: In 2013, and partly in response to the bombing, the EU unanimously voted to list the military branch of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

-Add The official reaction of Europol was "With the assistance of Europol and a number of other international partners the Bulgarian authorities have made substantial progress in the investigation, leading them to uncover the identity of the suspects and their possible link to Hezbollah. Although a final determination of responsibility has not been made Europol’s findings in the case are consistent with this view." Mr. John Brennan, Director of the Central Intelligence Agency assures that "Bulgaria's investigation exposes Hezbollah for what it is – a terrorist group that is willing to recklessly attack innocent men, women and children, and that poses a real and growing threat not only to Europe, but to the rest of the world."

-The rest which will remain from the old Iranian part after removing independent sources rule violations.

3. This text her is even funny today, may be it is better to remove it:

"After Bulgaria's centre-right wing government was replaced by a Social Democratic-led one, the certainty about the charges were diminished."

Now we have again center-right wing goverment, even the prime minister is the same and the Hezbollah is still not a part of the trial. This has nothing to do with the government orientation.

I think now it is factually, lexically and politically correct and does not violate Wikipedia policies.

The used sources are: - https://www.europol.europa.eu - https://en.wikipedia.org - http://www.segabg.com - Bulgarian media - https://www.mvr.bg - Ministry of the Interior - https://www.youtube.com - AP Archive channel - "the film and video archive of The Associated Press, one of the largest and most trusted sources of independent newsgathering" - http://bnr.bg - Bulgarian national radio news

Flora-Maria Rosenberg
, per Haaretz - the victims were Maor Harush, 24, and Elior Price, 25, from Acre; Itzik Kolangi, 28, and Amir Menashe, 28, from Petah Tikva; Kochava Shriki, 42, from Rishon Letzion. The sixth victim was the Bulgarian bus driver, Mustafa Kyosov, 36.. No Flora-Maria Rosenberg (a name not presenton the internet anywhere - and which is also somewhat unlikely - Maria not being a Jewish name usually. Her being a Holocaust survivor, aged 62 in 2012 is unlikely as that would place her year of birth at 1950 - a bit after the Holocaust). Icewhiz (talk) 13:19, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:46, 2 December 2018 (UTC)