Talk:2012 India blackouts

Class of Article
Upgraded to C category. Regards,  theTigerKing    19:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Disturbance analysis
The article would be improved if these questions were answered from reliable sources: (1) Did the system frequency drop at a certain gradual rate before the massive outage? This would indicate that there was an imbalance, with the generation deficient with respect to the load. (2) Did voltage collapse occur? This happens when the "nose curve" is encountered. Standard textbooks on power system operation analyze these questions. (3) Did protective relays fail to properly operate to drop portions of load as generation went off-line? Edison (talk) 05:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * BBC mentions the frequency issue in passing. I haven't seen your other two questions addressed so far. Thanks for bringing some technical expertise to this one! Khazar2 (talk) 05:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I question a fundamental statement of this article which calls the failures to be "separate" events. First of all the failures were only one day apart, and weather conditions were comparable. Second of all, a cascade effect which causes one failure can cause weakness along the grid, even if a secondary failure is not immediate. The article never explains how these are distinct events. Stealing of power was cited as a problem in that region also. I'm not familiar with the details. so defer to those who have better experience and data than I do. Please make the article clear if these can be truly categorized as separate events.--97.95.34.149 (talk) 03:36, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Tripped?
Sorry if this question may seem silly, but what is 'tripped' in this context? I'm assuming it means the line severed/ripped/teared/got damaged. It's just not entirely clear. Vince (talk) 06:35, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Similar to a circuit breaker tripping. Local Lingo. Chirag (talk) 12:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it refers to a circuit breaker tripping and cutting out power. India is full of engineers. ;) Rohini (talk) 09:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And full of politicians :( extra 999  ( talk ) 05:31, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Date
Why date is showing as 1st August.... It is tomorrow's date
 * I don't know. Speciate (talk) 12:04, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Title
The title is done very badly without the proper use of capital letters. The correct one should have been: "2012 Northern India Power Grid Failure" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.119.181.242 (talk) 07:27, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually no. Except that Northern should be with a capital N... werldwayd (talk) 07:40, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have moved that article anyway. The blackout is so large as to render the need for specificity moot. Speciate (talk) 12:02, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Map
Anybody want to create a map? Speciate (talk) 12:02, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I have created, uploaded, and added a map, using the list of states from the article. I doubt it is correct, as
 * The article says that 22 states were affected, but only lists 19
 * The list does not include Uttaranchal, though I doubt it has its own power-generating station
 * so please change it as appropriate. Maproom (talk) 17:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi...Check this link...this map seems correct...please upload whoever knows how to... http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/31/pictures-of-chaos-as-massive-india-blackout-leaves-670-million-without-power/ --Samnag28 (talk) 19:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that map itself will be copyrighted. But perhaps someone can make something similar. Khazar2 (talk) 19:24, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll bring my map (see above) into line with that one. Maproom (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The affected region includes the whole of North Eastern states. Please update the map accordingly. Amartyabag   TALK2ME  03:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The eastern states, like Bihar [my state] and Bengal were not affected by the blackout on the first day. East and Nort-East only failed on 31, the map should be updated. Chattisgarh was also affected on the second day. extra 999 ( talk ) 12:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * If Bihar and West Bengal were not affected on the first day, then I guess Orissa and Jharkhand weren't either. I will update the map accordingly. Maproom (talk) 15:05, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Rewriting article
Reqriting now. Avoid editing. Please add content to this page under this head for the next half an hour or so. I will incorporate as much as possible. Chirag (talk) 12:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Please rename the article to something more accurate...also the blackout was limited to North and Eastern States...writing India implies as if the entire country was affected... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samnag28 (talk • contribs) 13:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Since we are creating only one article for the blackout, then the event started on July 30th and not July 31st, as mentioned in the first line of the article...please incorporate the change --Samnag28 (talk) 13:44, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, someone seems to have turned this article into a disaster. I don't know why it was overwritten to take out the parts about the 30 July blackout, but these should be re-added. Text about the 31 blackout can then be additionally added. Right now it's a complete mess. I hope you'll finish up your "in use" soon, Chirag, so this can be fixed up. Khazar2 (talk) 13:59, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Sections
Can I suggest that sections are created for each day (30th and 31st of July, as of now)? IMHO at the moment the article alternates between the events on the two days in a rather confusing manner. Obviously, apologies if this is already in hand as part of the current edit. John259 (talk) 13:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I Think there were two separate articles on the black out. Too much editing happening. Separate events. affecting separate parts of the country. Chirag (talk) 13:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, a section for each day would be preferable. Khazar2 (talk) 13:32, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Why is this page flip flopping?
Why is this page flip flopping? especially since I left an in-use tag? There were two separateblackouts on two different days impacting different parts of the country. Chirag (talk) 13:13, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Contested deletion
There is absolutely no reason to delete this page. This is censorship, plain and simple.
 * I believe that tag was simple vandalism. I wouldn't sweat it. Khazar2 (talk) 13:45, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

"blackout began..."
Agree on the "Power Grid Failure" vs "blackout". Also, the article currently begins "The July 2012, India blackout began on 31 July 2012 at 1:02 pm local time in India, affecting 14 states.[1] This was the second consecutive failure in as many days."

Then, it really began on July 30? Sure, this is an ongoing, developing event - but it seems like the whole intro paragraph should be redone more clearly, imo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trep26 (talk • contribs) 16:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Can we have two separate sections- viz one each for 30 and 31 July 2012 in each section, how lives were affected and the response to each one of them. Its all messed up. Regards,  theTigerKing   17:37, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Scope of article
So, is this article on both blackouts? I have no real strong feelings one way or the other, but are they really the same event? Did power get restored and then go out again? Speciate (talk) 16:53, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. Yesterday this page was about the 30 July blackout, but was inexplicably retitled "31 July blackout" while leaving the text about the 30 July blackout in place. Khazar2 (talk)
 * That was me. I assumed that an article already existed about the first blackout. In fact..... Speciate (talk) 20:48, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Copy Editing.
I have done copy editing on the entire article and I do believe that is better worded than it was before I edited it. I would remove the Copy Editing notice, but I want to make sure that other editors are happy with what I've done before I remove the notice. Peace! Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 17:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No not yet. Requires exhaustive copy-editing. Regards,   theTigerKing   17:35, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

How many millions, really?
Can we really believe these mega-numbers of people affected? The newspaper articles contradict themselves. We say that 600 million people were without power today, but how many of them actually had power in the first place? For example, the Guardian article we quote, after delivering the huge numbers, goes on to say that "A large minority of those in the blackout zone have never been connected to any grid". So when quoting these numbers we should say that so many millions of people live in the affected area, not that they are all affected. I'm going to dive in and qualify some of these statements, but in the long run I hope we can find the numbers of actual subscribers affected (plus the non-subscribers who were on stalled trains or in darkened hospitals, of course). --Heron (talk) 18:16, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * India is divided into 5 power zones, also known as as power grids. The purpose of the power grids is to redistribute power supply from surplus regions to deficient ones, within a zone and between zones. However, due to excessive use of power by some of the states, the grids collapsed and there was no power within those regions or grids for hours. Take for example Delhi. The power demand in the state, just before the grid collapsed was 4400 MWS. But because of tripping, the grids in Delhi were carrying just 44MWS of power. Hence, the entire state was without power before the grids were restored. And, its not just Guardian. Every publication and news channel is broadcasting the same fact "Over 600 million people without power for hours". Hope it helps. Regards,   theTigerKing    18:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, even if 100s of millions don't have electrical service to their huts, they still rely on power to their local stores, jobsites, traffic lights and other infrastructure. So sticking with the 620 million figure is reasonable. Speciate (talk) 20:51, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that 300 million Indians are permanently "blacked out" by virtue of having zero mains power available at their residences. They are thus akin to US or British citizens of 100 years ago. They can light a candle or kerosene lamp if they want to see something after sunset. Edison (talk) 04:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Tiger King and others, for the detailed responses. I think Speciate has the answer: the number of people who rely on electrically-powered public utilities probably outweighs the number who use electricity in their homes. I did hint at that in my OP but I should have realised that it was the main point. --Heron (talk) 09:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Late monsoon
Just out of curiosity ... how late is this monsoon? I'm seeing what seem to be relevant news stories from July 2 and July 5 hoping for the monsoon to come. How unusual is it for the monsoon to be so far delayed? Wnt (talk) 20:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure myself--I've just seen references to it being "late", which I included here. I'd be interested to expand that part a touch if anyone finds more detail. Khazar2 (talk) 20:27, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Was Bangladesh affected by power outage?
I'm asking this because the area affected by the power outage nearly surrounds the country of Bangladesh.

Is Bangladesh's power system so independent of India's that it was unaffected by this huge power outage OR is information about Bangladesh simply not included on the map? Wanderer57 (talk) 20:55, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen that addressed in any sources yet but will keep my eyes open. Khazar2 (talk) 20:57, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Perhaps power shortages are so common in Bangladesh that they are not news-worthy.


 * http://www.weeklyblitz.net/2214/power-crisis-turns-unbearable-in-bangladesh


 * http://asiancorrespondent.com/61546/tougher-ramadan-for-bangladeshis-suffering-power-outages/


 * Wanderer57 (talk) 21:04, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Requested move
moved to 2012 India blackouts. --regentspark (comment) 19:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

July 2012 India blackout → July 2012 India blackouts – I'd like to see the name of the article brought in line with the actual events, which as far as it is being written seems to be two distinct blackouts. It is August already in India, that limits the name or scope of this article. Since the article is on the Main Page ITN section, I am hesitant to unilaterally make this move. Speciate (talk) 20:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * If the blackouts last a few more days and continue into August, we could rename it Summer 2012 India blackouts. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 21:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Or simply 2012 India blackouts. Let's see what tomorrow brings, but I agree that a plural would be helpful here. Khazar2 (talk) 21:32, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * But didn't the power get restored between the two blackouts? The question is, were there two blackouts, or only one? Speciate (talk) 21:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Definitely two July 2012 blackouts. Time will tell whether there are more. We are not on deadline, so a "perfect" and "permanent" title is not required at this time. If there are 12 more blackouts by the end of 2012, we can always retitle the article. Edison (talk) 04:25, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that the article should be renamed, but not to "Summer 2012 India blackouts", but rather to "2012 India blackouts". If you'll take a look at the articles that document history's largest blackouts, you'll see that this is the only one that has a sub-year period in the title; that is, all the other ones just have the year.  For example, Northeast blackout of 2003, 2009 Brazil and Paraguay blackout, etc. If we renamed this article to "2012 India blackouts", we'd have consistency with the other similar articles, plus wouldn't have to change the title again &mdash; unless, that is, the India electricity grid continues to fail all through the rest of the year and into the next year without letdown, which seems unlikely. As for the current article name, that would be left behind as a redirect, of course. Teemu Leisti (talk) 02:51, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Rename to 2012 India blackouts. In case another happens in next 5 months, it can be moved to July. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 13:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename to 2012 India blackouts. Khazar2 (talk) 13:46, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Please update the map
The eastern states, like Bihar [my state] and Bengal were not affected by the blackout on the first day. East and Nort-East only failed on 31, the map should be updated. Chattisgarh was also affected on the second day. extra 999 ( talk ) 13:47, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Investigation
I added back in "Loss of 400 kV Bina-Gwalior link due to mis-operation of it's protection system" because while the link was heavily loaded, it wasn't overloaded. The grid conditions tricked the protective relaying into thinking there was a large fault (short circuit) somewhere else on the grid (zone 3 protection) and tripped the line off. Records indicate that there was no fault, so the protective system triggered when it wasn't suppose to operate. Zone 1 is primary protection, Zone 2 is backup to Zone 1, etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.9.1.100 (talk) 14:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Good idea--thanks for adding this section, it's a big help! Khazar2 (talk) 14:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Sequence of events - 31 July
The States affected are listed in dot points:

states on the northern grid: Delhi, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Punjab, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand

Delhi is not a State!

Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 11:57, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It's its own special area.Correctron (talk) 23:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The heading should be changed to "Areas affected" ... it will be obvious to the reader that Haryana, J&K, etc. are States. Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 08:26, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


 * In what way would it be obvious? Correctron (talk) 11:10, 3 August 2014 (UTC)


 * You're right, Correctron, that was carelessness of expression on my part. What I meant was that since Haryana, J&K are States - and Delhi isn't - using "areas" rather than "states" would happily accommodate Delhi. Furthermore, since the preamble currently is "The following states were affected by the grid failure", it's unnecessary to write "states on the" in the next 3 lines. Consider amending it thus:
 * The following areas were affected by the grid failure:[29]
 * northern grid: Delhi, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Punjab, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand
 * eastern grid: Bihar, Jharkhand, Odisha, West Bengal
 * northeast grid: Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Manipur, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Sikkim
 * Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 10:00, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Would the phrase "states and UTs affected" satisfy this concern? NCT of Delhi is a UT as far as the constitution is concerned. Mukt (talk) 09:47, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

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sequence of events, phrasing
The first paragraph of the section "Sequence of events" ends with the sentence "The Northern and Western Regions' Load Despatch Centres (LDCs) requested that the Northern region shed load and the Western region reduce generation to unload the power line, but neither utility failed to do so adequately."

Neither utility failed to do so adequately? Is this meant to say "neither utility did so adequately"? 129.242.242.125 (talk) 12:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)