Talk:2012 Indianapolis 500

Schedule
Added calendar view of the schedule for reference purposes only at this point. At this time, more recent Indy 500 race articles don't use it. The 1960s-early 2000s have them. Doctorindy (talk) 13:14, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Car Colours
I know we've used rear-wing endplate colours for the year so far, but with the new rear-wheel guards creating a bit of ambiguity, is it right to stick with the endplate if the main car colour is more notable? Specifically, I notice this edit reverting Newgarden and Clauson to white on black simply because that's how the rear guards look, despite the primary car colours being more notable - particularly the fact that Josef is back in the Dollar General colours.  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 11:10, 15 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Since they came out with the DW-12, the "endplates" aren't as much of a entity as they were with the IR05's. I thought that the primary car colors would be better, but whatever's easiest. Doctorindy (talk) 13:04, 15 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Consistency is key, to be honest. If we start using the primary car color, then we need it to be universal. Wing color has been traditionally used. WhoIsWillo (talk) 22:09, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Red links
I went though and eliminated some red links by creating articles 2013 Indianapolis 500 and 2012 Detroit Indy Grand Prix so that this article appears up-to-date to the casual reader. This page will get a lot of traffic in the next two weeks, and needs to appear well. Doctorindy (talk) 13:51, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

"First half" and "second half"
I don't think it's beneficial to divide the race summary into "first half" and "second half" section headings - unlike, say, an American football game, there's no break in the action at the halfway point. I see it's been done for a few of the previous 500s also, but I don't think it's helpful there either. Chuck (talk) 21:59, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * A too long summary section becomes tedious and boring...and the it helps show how the race unfolded. Breaking it up makes it easier to read too. Doctorindy (talk) 02:04, 26 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I see your point, and WP:BODY seems to support that as well. ("Very short or very long sections and subsections in an article look cluttered and inhibit the flow of the prose.") I just wish there was a more natural way to break up the race description. Maybe instead of "start," "first half," "second half," and "finish," the sections could be labelled "Laps 1-10," "Laps 11-100," etc., which would at least make clear what activity goes in what section. We wouldn't necessarily have to use the same divisions for every race, but could break them up at whatever points seem most natural. (In my mind the "Finish" or whatever the last section ends up being called, begins with Ed Carpenter's spin on lap 180, but that's not a huge sticking point.) Chuck (talk) 22:06, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I started using those headers on the other various article because it allows for a looser, more general interpretation. In addition, casual readers may not know that the race consists of "200 laps," so it would make the lap count header too technical or too specific. Also, the header for "Finish" allows you to describe whatever number of laps make up the story of the finish. Some years the "finish" really boils down to the last pit stop on lap 180...some years it's means the last 4 lap sprint...some years it's just a 10 lap coronation. Every race is different. Doctorindy (talk) 16:31, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Dario - Flag / Nationality
In the article on Dario, he is listed from Scotland, whilst on this page he is shown to be from 🇬🇧 UK/Britain. Is there a reason for the more general nationality here? Buzzbo (talk) 04:35, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * MOSICON  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 10:54, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Any User that openly posts this filth about Dario Franchitti is not a suitable arbiter of NPOV content. --Mais oui! (talk) 11:39, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * And what on earth is this repulsive Edit summary about? Do no Admins watch this page? --Mais oui! (talk) 11:42, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Regardless of my external postings, this is a long-term debate to which the consensus has been that Dario - and other drivers from the UK - is represented by the UK flagicon. Please see Talk:Dario Franchitti, Talk:2010 IndyCar Series season, Talk:2007 IndyCar Series season; and most importantly Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Motorsport/Archive 1.  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 13:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh my, did I really just re-open this can of worms? :0 As it appears hotly debated, if someone were to switch Dario's flag to UK in order to meet guidelines, it becomes debatable? Buzzbo (talk) 22:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I'd hardly say you opened the can of worms. It's something that gets asked from time to time because of the oddities in IndyCar/ALMS and the like. It's other people who have a strong national tie to the subject who begin to edit war over it who really open the can even more. Nobody is denying he's from Scotland, it's just that on WP the consensus that has been established is to leave all flagicons as the UK. The same sort of debate would come up if it were to be discussed about Marino Franchitti or Paul di Resta.  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 23:22, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:VERIFY is official Wikipedia policy, and trumps any bogus "consensus" (ha ha) cobbled together by highly POV editors. WP:VERIFY also overrides "guideline" pages like WP:MOSICON. The reliable external refs in Franchitti's case are crystal clear: he officially races (and occasionally even wins) under the Scottish flag and his results are officially presented by the official sporting bodies (eg Indianapolis Motor Speedway) as "Scotland", not as "Great Britain" or "United Kingdom". Wikipedia correctly presents Scottish sportsmen/women and sports teams in other sports where the official bodies recognise Scotland rather than GB/UK (eg. badminton, squash, golf, curling, football, rugby, cricket), so the idiotic contravention of WP:VERIFY on the U.S. motorsport articles sticks out like a huge POV thumb. --Mais oui! (talk) 05:18, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Here we go again with the "policy parade". Did you even read the previous discussion that I linked to? Also, have you ever stopped to realise that your national tie to the subject matter is a huge POV problem, far worse than the POV you seem to claim that I have? Just because I hate the guy doesn't mean I'm not going to edit fairly and correctly like I'm supposed to. As Franchitti races with a British racing licence, he will be flagged as British just like the other English drivers (Wilson, Jakes, Conway etc.), and like Northern Irish drivers (Adam Carroll) if and when they race. Motorsports do not designate the four Home Nations as separate entities, unlike all those sports that you linked. Also, I noticed a segment in the WP:MOTOR archive showing how you have had this POV problem for five years.  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 11:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Admin input is urgently required here: official Wikipedia policy WP:VERIFY is crystal clear: "Sources should directly support the material presented in an article". The IMS official reference added to the article explicitly and exclusively described Franchitti as representing Scotland, and nothing else. To pretend otherwise is a breach of official Wikipedia policy. --Mais oui! (talk) 15:04, 29 May 2012 (UTC) --Mais oui! (talk) 15:04, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * For the avoidance of doubt, this is the official IMS announcement of the 2012 winner, used as the supporting reference for Franchitti's nationality:
 * Wikipedia cannot allow a clique of editors to just make things up, irrespective of the real big world out there. Which is of course why WP:VERIFY lies at the very heart of the Wikipedia philosophy. --Mais oui! (talk) 15:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:VERIFY is not the issue at hand here. We know Dario is Scottish and that is acknowledged on his article and in other places where it's suitable. However, it's not suitable in an article where the standard procedure for a fair few years now has been to identify all British drivers with the Union Jack, particularly given the inconsistency with American racing series and their choice of representative flags. Read very closely the line in WP:MOSICON that I linked in the initial response above:
 * WP:VERIFY is not the issue at hand here. We know Dario is Scottish and that is acknowledged on his article and in other places where it's suitable. However, it's not suitable in an article where the standard procedure for a fair few years now has been to identify all British drivers with the Union Jack, particularly given the inconsistency with American racing series and their choice of representative flags. Read very closely the line in WP:MOSICON that I linked in the initial response above:


 *  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 15:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * MOSICON has nothing whatsoever to do with sporting events where it is crystal clear which entities are being represented. The 2012 Indianapolis 500 is not a "general" sitiation. It is a specific sporting event, where the nationality of the winning driver is supported not only by the official body organising the sport . the IMS - but also by media worldwide.
 * This edit is a clear breach of official Wikipedia policy: you are using a specified reliable external reference which says one thing in plain, clear English, and using it to support a different thing on Wikipedia. It is not just bare-faced cheek, it is a bare-faced attempt at deception. --Mais oui! (talk) 16:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The reference states clearly that Dario was the winner of the race, and as such is perfectly valid in that situation. Again, you fail to understand the point why the Union Jack is used per MOSICON. This same situation could come about if a source were to say "England's Dan Wheldon", "Auckland's Scott Dixon", "Sao Paulo's Hélio Castroneves" among other things; they may reinforce the country/state/area where they came from, but it does not expressly indicate their nationality; particularly when a consensus has been established for five years.  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 17:06, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * As you well know, the reference was not applied to the article to support the information about who the winner was. No-one in their right mind would ever dispute such a thing. The reference was applied to support the fact that the official organising body of the competition (Indianapolis Motor Speedway) officially describes the winner as "Dario Franchitti (Scotland)" and nothing else. --Mais oui! (talk) 17:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Motorsport drivers can have British nationality in their licenses. I think licenses are more official than the Indycar website. --NaBUru38 (talk) 19:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * We can't just single out Franchitti just because of the strong scottish ties. If we were going to change his flag from the British flag to the Scottish flag, then we would have to change all welsh drivers to the flag of Wales, all english drivers to the English flag, all northern irish flags ect. Think about Paul di Resta or David Coulthard, they're both scottish drivers and yet they're both listed with a british flag, what makes Dario any different?
 * If we bend the rules for one driver, then we would have to do the same for every other driver too racing under the British flag, and thats a lot of unneeded editing. BosleyTree (talk) 19:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * What makes Dario any different? - The fact that IndyCar officially recognises Dario as Scottish under the Scottish flag? . I have never seen Franchitti listed anywhere under the UK flag - only the Scottish one. Using the UK flag would be original research. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:59, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * He was British when he raced in DTM. He was British when he raced in ALMS. He was British when he raced V8 Supercar and he was British when he raced Formula 3. Its mischevous to suggest he has never been British. --Falcadore (talk) 03:14, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it's best to say he's from the U.K. Just as Dan Wheldon, Jim Clark and others were. Frankly, Dario lives in Nashville, and the other full-time drivers are either permanent residents of the U.S.A. or joint-citizenship, so does nationality even make a difference anymore? Doctorindy (talk) 13:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It's also WP:OR to suggest he's from a nationality/using a flag that is not the one the sources use. - The Bushranger One ping only 17:16, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Just a little factoid, if you look at Dario's driving uniform, he has a Scottish flag embroidered on the belt next to his name. Doctorindy (talk) 12:48, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Marco Andretti
The Race re-cap in the section which at this time is labeled "second half" is incorrect, with regard to Andretti. The article says he "drove into the wall." He did not drive into the wall. The broadcast coverage on television made several mentions during the whole race about the track being slippery along the white line on the left side of the track. Marco's car started to slide when his wheels touched that white line. The cockpit cameras inside Marco's car clearly showed what Marco was doing. He did not "Drive into the wall." The camera clearly showed that his front wheels were not spinning at all, because Marco's response was to hit the brakes. The car slid across the track into the wall. He did not drive into the wall. And the television announcer also mentioned the fact of Marco taking his hands off the steering wheel, because once these cars hit the wall, it causes the wheel to spin, and the drivers need to protect their hands from a steering wheel spin. MS, Dania Fl. 74.166.156.250 (talk) 02:02, 28 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I would appreciate it, if someone would tell me why the left-side of the track along the white line produced slippery conditions that made cars skid and slide.    Im not understanding why that occured today, in that area of the track.  MS. Dania Fl. 74.166.156.250 (talk) 02:02, 28 May 2012 (UTC)


 * "Drove into the wall" seems to me a journalistic synonym to "crashed". I agree that it's not adequate as a literal description. --NaBUru38 (talk) 19:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Per WP:EUPHEMISMS, those sorts of "corny" or "jazzy" synonyms and descriptions should be avoided. Doctorindy (talk) 13:24, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

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