Talk:2012 MLS Cup Playoffs

Refimprove reasoning
It seems some editors need a but more information as to why this article needs more references. It's not that anything in the article is factually incorrect, it's "that people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that information comes from a reliable source" (see WP:V). So the lede and format sections should be referenced to the current rules for the playoffs at the MLS site. And the results should be referenced when known. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:57, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Do we need to re-push all the references over from the main article. Given there's one reference to main article at the top, isn't that enough? Also, given you seem to claim ownership for all the MLS articles, why don't you take that task on? Nlsanand (talk) 21:09, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * There are none there so that doesn't help. I just tagged that section of the season article as well. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:20, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I see 30 there. What are you talking about? I am talking about the 2012 MLS season article. Nlsanand (talk) 15:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, not in the playoffs section. I see none there and that's where I tagged. 2012 Major League Soccer season --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:17, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey the reference is here., but I can't do full referencing in the bracket template without a ref list (I don't know how to set it up...can you help? Nlsanand (talk) 16:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Not the best stylistically, but info is there, can you take your tag off oth articles? Nlsanand (talk) 16:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Why would we take the tag off when only one item, the ladder, would be referenced by the additional reference. The following are not referenced:
 * are the defending champions, who beat Houston Dynamo 1–0 in last year's championship
 * Format
 * Probably other things could be referenced. I'm not sure why the tag is so offensive. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:07, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The format is referenced. Maybe it wasn't when you wrote the above comment. I'll put a link to 2011 MLS Cup but that's kinda being picky. The tag makes no sense. It's just kinda you not being helpful. Don't just tag stuff for the sake of tagging it, because there's stuff that you think it's underreferenced. Especially when that stuff is well known like LA beating Houston. I know you love questioning obvious facts...but this is a bit over the top. Nlsanand (talk) 02:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you think that references make no sense. Perhaps you need to read "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources" in WP:RS. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Why in the world do you think two references, primary sources at that, effectively cover this article? Please find references for material that isn't referenced. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Or would you rather that I was a dick and tagged every sentence or phrase that should be referenced? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:10, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Ship's already sailed on you being a dick. Nlsanand (talk) 04:13, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And yes, I'd like to know what facts expressed in this article are under referenced? Your argument is that there are only 2 references. Seems like a bit of a horses and bayonets argument. Most of the stuff seems covered. Nlsanand (talk) 04:15, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * With you around, at least I'm not the only one. Hope this helps you see what isn't referenced. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What frustrates me the most is that you argued for references for a simple math issue on the TFC season, but when I ask for references in this article you push-back. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:05, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

The edits just made show that we had incorrect information in the article. Will more refs reveal more errors? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:23, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Huh?? I didn't argue for references for simple math on the TFC season...you did? Are you actually misremembering. I didn't have a reference, all I had was math. Did you misremember the whole argument. Go re-read the page. It'll remind me you of the pwnage. Nlsanand (talk) 02:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Re: the incorrect info. How does that tag prevent incorrect info that incorrect? It was you who insisted in putting actually incorrect info in the 2012 Toronto FC season article, based on it being sourced. And the two things you cited as unsourced were such weak sauce examples. One was one of those "obvioius" things that don't need referencing (Houston losing to LA). The other was the format of the playoffs was unreferenced. I think it's fair to ask for a source on that. Except it was referenced in the section below. I just moved it up. Nlsanand (talk) 02:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Just saw the stuff you put "citation needed" on...c'mon 17th season (WP Calc, much?). Aggregate conference finals when it's referenced in the next section. I thought you followed the league. This stuff is obvious. I like soccer, can you go be a dick on some other league's articles? I get the impression you don't give too much a fuck about content, go ruin a baseball article. Nlsanand (talk) 02:21, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Just marked your removal of the tags that you requested as vandalism since not a single one was filled and I tagged your page with an only warning for removing maintenance templates. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * S'up buddy. I love how you post those things on my page like you're some authority on this. All my edits were annotated. How does the following need a tag: "the seventeenth league championship for MLS." Explain to me how WP:CALC does not apply? FYI...I explained it in my edit. Sorry do you need help with math again? xplain to me your reasoning. If not I am removing your tags as vandalism. As I said, this is pretty close to bad faith editing. Also, no response to points above. Don't ignore the question Romney. Nlsanand (talk) 18:42, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What I'm afraid you don't get is that you're not an authority either. In fact, you prefer to do things your own way against community consensus on such things as references. In that regard, I understand Wikipedia better than you do, although I'm far from perfect, and am simply trying to help you become a better editor and make Wikipedia a better product.
 * You explained your edits as you were making them and I don't need help with math, thanks nor do I need help understanding the guidelines you alluded to.
 * What you need help with is understanding that you are not a good editor and that comments such as this and this are wrong. What you needed to do is add the first reference. Do need help with simple HTML tagging or are you capable enough to do so?
 * This comment is against WP:NPA a policy that states "Comment on content, not on the contributor". It's also what got your talk page tagged.
 * Feel free to continue to be an uncooperative and combative editor. It will help to make a case against you. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I probably need some help with HTML, comment accepted. Why wasn't that the first comment? What about the obvious calculations re: 17th season, do those need a reference? Also, so you admit you're just doing this to "create a case against me"? I am going to revert on the obvioius calculations and try my hand and inserting the references above. You can clean those up after if you feel like being helpful. Nlsanand (talk) 19:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The calculations are fine. Unfortunately Twinkle removes all edits made when selected and tagged.
 * As for the HTML, is how you would name a reference and is how you would repeat the use of that reference. Replace "fubar" with something specific to that reference. Named references are name=mlscup2012 and name="Rules and Regulations". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Perfect. This will help if we want to nominate for good article status at the completion. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Ghanaians
Nor Robbie Russel or Kofi Sarkodie are ghanaians. Sarkonie was born in US and played for US youth team. Russel was born in Ghana but grew up in US and has been called for US despite never been capped. So stop putting ghanaian flag in front of their names.--SirEdimon (talk) 23:08, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Not until you provide support. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:22, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not understanding you--SirEdimon (talk) 20:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I mean a source outside of your opinion. Sort of like http://www.dcunited.com/players that says Russell is from Ghana and never mentions any other citizenship. Having bveen called-up for the Americans doesn't matter. If he sits on the bench for them but doesn't step onto the field, it's a grey area. If you can produce a reference (support) that confirms Russell's naturalization it may make a difference.
 * Sarkodie has played for the US at the international level and so by FIFA rules is considered American. However, if he elects to play for Ghana (for whatever reason) at the senior level we would list him as Ghanaian again.
 * I've reverted your change to his nationality again. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:34, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

My friend that's not my opinion, that's a know fact for anyone that follows american soccer. He grown in US and always stated his desire to play for US, he NEVER considered to play for Ghana. He already have been called to national team. You can see in his self profile or in a quick search in internet. Look this:

http://www.ussoccer.com/teams/mnt/r/robbie-russell.aspx (his profile oin USSF) http://www.ussoccer.com/News/Soccer-Wire/2003/12/U-S-Soccer-Wire-Arena-Calls-30-Into-Camp.aspx (you can see his name in this list in the position "defender") http://www.ussoccer.com/News/Mens-National-Team/2008/01/Beginning-The-Cycle-Looking-Back-To-The-2004-January-Camp-At-The-Home-Depot-Center.aspx http://kirsoccer.wordpress.com/category/former-players/robbie-russell/ http://www.aolnews.com/2010/06/28/despite-ouster-robbie-russell-says-us-soccer-is-still-surging/ http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/robbie-russell/profil/spieler_26411.html --SirEdimon (talk) 22:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC) PS: I won't edit Russell flag untill we've been agreed about this.--SirEdimon (talk) 22:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Has he been capped, in other words, stepped onto the field to represent America at any level? That is the threshold, not lists from USSF. And http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/robbie-russell/profil/spieler_26411.html says he could be either, but his nationality is Ghanain. Bad, bad, bad example. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I have finally been presented with a statement that he is a US citizen: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700245409/Real-Salt-Lake-RSL-signs-midfielderdefender-Russell.html . This is what was needed. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:35, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

My friend, he would never be called for USMNT if he wasn't an american citizen. It's not possible. If he's name is in call list for US, that means he's american.--SirEdimon (talk) 00:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It is possible if he were a permanent resident. Sébastien Le Toux was tagged for such an honour after he received his green card. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:38, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

No it's not possible. You have to be a "PERMANENT CITIZEN" to represent a country. Darlington Nagbe grown in US but he's not a citizen, yet. Therefore he can't play for US yet. The FIFA rules are clear: "Any person holding a permanent NATIONALITY that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country." "Article 17 Acquisition of a new nationality Any Player who refers to art. 15 par. 1 to assume a new nationality and who has not played international football in accordance with art. 15 par. 2 shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfils one of the following conditions: (a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association; (b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association; (c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association; (d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association."

You can see this in: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/09/75/14/fifa_statutes_072008_en.pdf --SirEdimon (talk) 22:00, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Please see (d) above. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:24, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

"He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association. 63". If you mean this. It's a FIFA requirement. In past years, many countries gave citizenship for players (mainly from Brazil)in order to improve their national teams. These players had no links with their new countries. To avoid this, FIFA increased the requirements to play for a national team. Now is required at least five years living in country. It means, irrespective of the law of a country, even if a person can get a citizenship with less than five years, FIFA require that a player lives at least five years in his new country. That rule do not affects the USA, because it's very hard to get american citizenship, this rules is mainly for countries where it is easier. We have many players, like Steve Zakuani and Darlington Nagbe, that stated their desire to play for USMNT, but they don't get the citizenship.--SirEdimon (talk) 22:03, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry I don't see your point. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:08, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

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