Talk:2012 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series/Archive 1

Standings tables - unnecessary use of rowspan/colspan
I noticed before that User:Nascarking added colspan and rowspan to some of the cells in the Results and standings section. I reverted while updating the table since it looks rather ugly, breaks up the flow of the table, and causes messy code where it is not needed, especially as no other racing series does this for their comparable tables. Tonight, this user appears to have done it again, but seemed to have made it look even more butt ugly, particularly the Manufacturer section (see for snapshot). Rather than reverting again, I want to bring it up to try and get some consensus about this look. In my opinion, it adds nothing to the usefulness of the tables, and it doesn't exactly save all that much on article file size.  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 01:28, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that the table looks much better without the span. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The tables look ugly and is more confusing with them. Remove! --  Nascar 1996 ( Talk • Contribs ) 03:00, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The 33 team
So as you all know, the 33 team changed locations from RCR to Joe Falk. Now, the 33 is housed at Hillman Racing's shop, but I don't think they're actually fielding the team. Besides Gil Martin still crew chiefing for the team, there's the issue of the team's name. Falk never said that Hillman was fielding the car, and Childress certainly isn't, so I was wondering what the team name for the new owners of the 33 are, and since Falk said he'd be running the full season (most likely with Raines), should we bump the team to the full time column, and if we do that, should it be placed under RCR?Gaeaman787 (talk) 15:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe put both because of the partial schedule for both of them? --  Nascar 1996 ( Talk • Contribs ) 19:44, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but I don't know if the 33 is being run as a Hillman Racing car. It would make sense, but reports said that Falk was just running out of their shop, and that he was listed as the owner of the 40 car that DNQ'd at Daytona. Since Hillman AFAIK isn't directly running the car, then I don't know. guess I'll just wait. Or someone can ask Tony Raines on twitter on whether or not Hillman is running the 33Gaeaman787 (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunatly, Tony doesn't seem to have a Twitter. However, AFAIK from Jayski's and the broadcasts, this is what I can tell:


 * Daytona, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Bristol and California: No. 33 is Richard Childress Racing, period.
 * Martinsvile: No. 33 is a joint fielding between Childress and Joe Falk, with the sale deal in progress (and at the entry deadline Childress still had full control of the team).
 * Texas onwards: No. 33 is Joe Falk, period, using shop space shared with Hillman Racing, which Falk is also a co-owner of, at least on the Truck side: while Falk partners with Hillman Racing in the trucks series, his Cup team will be independent.


 * ...so, until we find out whether Falk is calling the team LJ Racing, LTD Powersports, or Grand Poobah Racing, it should just be listed as Joe Falk. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Good idea. We'll just keep them together for the time being. Since they teamed up at M'ville, once Falk has a name for the team, we can do RCR Joe Falk's Super TeamGaeaman787 (talk) 16:10, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes...update for the 33 team. Buddy Sisco apparently became the crew chief before Texas...and he was also the cc for Hilman Racing's Daytona attempt with Michael Waltrip. Since Falk and Hillman own the race team, this is looking like Hillman Racing is actually fielding the 33, not just housing the team in shop. Which leads us to the question of where to put it in the complete schedule table, since the 33 was run by both Falk and Childress, and that the table is in alphabetical order by team.Gaeaman787 (talk) 01:33, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Nascar Standings Column Order
Request for, or opinions on the suggestion, the Wikipedia Nascar standings to have the total points column placed immediately after the driver's name. The vast panoramic width of the table, with the total points at the farthest distance from the driver's name, makes it very hard to visually tie up within an instant glance the points of the drivers. Also, one really should have the most important stats at the start (driver name and points), everything else is additional information that one can drill through as desired. As an example of the difference in instant comprehension of the key stats please see my Speedway tables at http://speedway.manchesterpaul.net/2011_leagues.html

I do wish all Wikipedia sports standings and tables would have the total points next to the individual or team competitor's name. As with most sports tables nowadays - in view of the numerous categories needing to be included - it's more instantly informative to have matches played and points gained as the first two columns. After all, they are the two key fields that matter with the others just being additional information. If you picture current sports league tables you need to switch your eyeballs to a widescreen mode to make for easy and instant comprehension. This alteration i make to the traditional sports table means that the vital information is available at a glance.

One can check out the football league tables in the newspapers or online, a wealth of information but far from easy on the eye when looking at matches played and points earned. It's the same with all comprehensive tables published be it on the web or printed ones in the press. ManchesterSpeedway (talk) 00:03, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand your concern, but WP:MOTOR season articles have the points standings in the last column. Each type of article has its own WikiProject that it is under; for example this article is under WP:MOTOR AND WP:NASCAR, while football articles are under different projects, and each have different styles. --  Nascar 1996 ( Talk • Contribs ) 03:55, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 8 July 2012
Jordan clay harris (talk) 03:28, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Hello there. I was going to look at this request, but I seen that you didn't add a request in the template. Please add a request first. Thanks! --  Nascar 1996 ( Talk • Contribs ) 03:58, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry i'm new to Wiki and although i've just enabled my user page and talk page ( i think), for the life of me i can't find out where to 'add a request' in the 'template' let alone where said template is. I'll do my best tomorrow to try and comprehend what is what regards editing and making requests etc. If it helps all i can do for know is stress that, yes it is a request to make the alteration to the Nascar Standings table and/or for thoughts/discussion/'talk' on my proposal and the reasons for it. ManchesterSpeedway (talk) 01:21, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * What is your proposal? --  Nascar 1996 ( Talk • Contribs ) 16:27, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Apologies if 'edit request on 8 july' is not referring to my 'Nascar Standings Column Order' or is it? However, i'm pretty sure you are referring to me when asking what is the proposal. The proposal is for the Nascar standings to have the total points column placed immediately after the driver's name. The vast panoramic width of the table, with the total points at the farthest distance from the driver's name, makes it very hard to visually tie up within an instant glance the points of the drivers. Also, one really should have the most important stats at the start (driver name and points), everything else is additional information that one can drill through as desired. ManchesterSpeedway (talk) 21:48, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think that it should. The standings should go last, like it is in all motorspots tables, such as 2012 Formula One season and 2012 IndyCar Series season. --  Nascar 1996 ( Talk • Contribs ) 21:56, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Could i ask yourself and any others to view the altered table i have placed in my sandbox. I really do think it's a massive improvement in comprehending and aligning the driver's points to the driver's name. As i'm proposing a change, the fact that tables currently have a set format is irrelevant. It's a 'change' i'm suggesting. Many thanks for discussing it so far. ManchesterSpeedway (talk) 09:35, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Update. Doesn't look like other users can view test pages in another's sandbox. Is there anywhere on Wiki that one can display a proposed change to an article so people can see how it looks? ManchesterSpeedway (talk) 09:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I presume you are referring to User:ManchesterSpeedway/sandbox, yes? I don't see much improvement at all. If anything, the points column is now squashed in between the driver's name and the results section, causing it to lose prominence compared to being at the end of the column just like in other wide tables, e.g. in V8 Supercars. It also makes the far end of the table just seem to vanish and seems incomplete. Although part of my "squashed" rationale may be down to User:Nascar1996's edit taking the table font-size down to 77% and abbreviating the points column.  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 15:59, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh My Goodness! i don't understand what the 'rant' link you give means? I'm new to Wiki so maybe i'm misunderstanding and it's not directed at my proposal but just part of your User link? I'm not aware anyone is arguing or animated here right now? Ok i'll make my last input for my version below and, as i say, let everyone else be the judge of what they wish to see, which is absolutely fine with me. I realize tradition is mighty hard to change.

Firstly, wow, i can assure you that what you are describing at 77% font size does not happen when you view the page normally. I'm very surprised that you can not see not only an improvement but a big improvement. If possible i'd suggest viewing the table in standard size. How on earth can it have less prominence when, in the western world we read from left to right, it is placed ahead of the many columns which come after it. Also, rating imporance of stats, first is the driver's name and second how many points he has gained in the championship.

Secondly, i suggest that those who are unsure whether it improves the table to try this test. Using the current traditional layout, get a friend to randomly fire off twenty drivers names and ask you how many points they have scored and time it. Then using my proposed version do the same and i assure you there will be a great difference in speed of taking in the table. Thirdly, again randomly test both tables using the question of 'how many points is one driver ahead of another driver' and there will be an even bigger difference in speed. All of which indicates that the new table would in normal casual reading of it be more comprehensible.

Lastly, one question coupled with sincerest thanks for any input so far and i'm only trying to help improve an article, not arguing. Can i just please seek an answer to a specific overriding point and on which i feel my proposed table is needed?. Are you or are you not disputing that with the points total next to the driver's name instead of some 40 plus columns away that it is far easier to instantly tie those points up with each driver? I'll be surprsed if you are disagreeing with that 'improvement'? ManchesterSpeedway (talk) 22:21, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * To rebuff your initial horror recoil, it's just the link to the my Talk page. Kinda stems back from a few yeas ago when I used to refer to all my blog posts as "rants", I just really haven't bothered to change my Wiki sig since then.
 * With the points table being place beside a normal table cell and the coloured first race result, it's not as noticeable compared to at the end of the table, where it is more noticeable by contrasting against the standard Wiki background colour. The fact that it is designated as a table heading cell is a moot point as the slight background colour difference is far more easily looked over. We may read left-to-right, but would humans not see a set of tabled data and interpret it as a whole, looking for key data sections that stand out, similar to when we see a graph?
 * As someone who has been editing these tables for a few years now, it is unusual to see the points section in such a place rather than being at the far end. To me, my established notes is that the position and name appear on the left, and the overall points appear on the right, with a breakdown of data in the middle. Similarly with recap tables on individual driver's articles, the far left shows the year, and the far right the total points and overall finishing result; with the middle containing results, team, engine and other similar details.  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 23:29, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * All-in-all, your debates deviate from the norm that editors across WP:MOTOR utilise, so it would be best if you raised your concerns at WT:MOTOR so that the discussion can be made for all motorsport articles, instead of singling out NASCAR simply because of it's large number of races per year. With that said, I will ask what of the 2012 NASCAR Camping World Truck Series, which only has 22 races this year, making it a lot closer to other racing series, particularly this year's F1 calendar?  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 23:29, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok thank you very much for taking the time to expand your reasoning and thoughts on the proposal. Also, i'm sure i'm seconding the thoughts of many when offering thanks for your years of editing the standings. I'll depart and leave the discussion 'as is' for others to read in the future. Incidentally, i just noticed that no less a site than the sport's official site Nascar.com display the tables in the exact way i suggest. Anyways, i'm off to spend many hours reading up on the truly wonderful world of Wiki editing. ManchesterSpeedway (talk) 22:06, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit Request
I believe it would be beneficial to show the standings before the playoffs. (ie, something like this)


 * I think stating the points before the Chase would be irrelevant at the end of the season... I feel that there is no need for it. --  Nascar 1996 ( Talk • Contribs ) 10:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it should be in the grid its good info to know if the 13th or 14th drivers had more points at the end of the year like this. Theworm777 (talk) 19:02, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

(key) Bold – Pole position awarded by time. Italics – Pole position set by final practice results. * – Most laps led.
 * 1 – Post entry, driver and owner did not score points.
 * 2 – Hill and Cook started the season running for Cup series points but switched to Nationwide after California (Hill) and Watkins Glen (Cook).
 * I don't see the point, NASCAR doesn't keep a public record of the "normal" points at the end of the regular season.  TheChrisD  Rants • Edits 22:23, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Error in results chart
Kurt Busch should be marked as Disqualified (Parked) for the second Talladega race, see the results here: --151.203.227.139 (talk) 06:47, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ --  Nascar 1996 ( Talk • Contribs ) 18:10, 25 November 2012 (UTC)