Talk:2012 United States presidential election/Archive 11

Ballot Access Update
ballot-access.org has shown that Sheila Tittle is under the 'We The People' party label. It also shows that Chuck Baldwin is on the ballot in Kansas under the Reform label. Jack Fellure is on the Louisiana ballot under the Prohibition label as well.

207.177.29.217 (talk) 23:39, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:43, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Reliable source that will in this case be an article or update on the online magazine ballot access. Simply put the excact webadress in brackets [ ] so it is easy for a registered editor to find it. Remember that Ballot Access also have a blog where everyone can write anything and that is of course not reliable, if you have found these info at the blog there is often links to a reliable source you can put here instead. It is not enough simply to state that it can be found somewhere on ballot-access.org, you have to do some of the research yourself and bring it to this talkpage Jack Bornholm (talk) 11:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Rocky Anderson and Conceivable Electoral Wins....
The top of the article now lists Virgil Goode who isn't on enough state ballots to get 270 electoral votes, but if you include ballots that he's a qualified write-in candidate, he's over the mark. You can say the same for Rocky Anderson's campaign. I suggest making him the sixth face at the top of the page.

Further below, there should be a separate section for "Ballot access to 270 or more electoral votes (including write-ins)"....that would create less confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.205.50.158 (talk) 22:10, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Whether you can say the same thing for Rocky Anderson is actually up for debate right now. Please read through this and the above section "What to Do with Constitution Party/Virgil Goode" before posting your thoughts on how to count write-ins towards a candidate's ballot access total, if at all. Under the current provisional guidelines, sources will need to be found (preferably in the election law itself) that indicate Anderson has filed at least 80 electors across his other 13 write-in states, not including TX (where the existence of a full electoral slate has already been confirmed). 68.58.63.22 (talk) 22:47, 14 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.29.133.167 (talk)

What to Do with Constitution Party/Virgil Goode

 * I ask this because I remember, as someone mentioned, that Texas, despite only being a Write-In state for Goode, could be considered for ballot access given that Write-In candidates also have to nominate electors as regular balloted candidates would. Including Texas, and only Texas, under such status would place Virgil Goode at a level that would warrant his position in the Info-Box alongside Stein and Johnson. However, I am sure there would be dispute over the notion, and show wished to open it to discussion to figure out how to decide upon it. I will note however that, as it currently stands, Goode will not make the Info-Box otherwise, having suffered a number of reversals over the last two months. --Ariostos (talk) 01:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The list of states we have for Goode include two that are not at his official ballot page: NY & VA. Because VA verifies signatures on a "rolling" basis as they come in, we know Goode should be on the VA ballot because he already got the 10,000 required signatures verified. As for NY, I know he submitted enough, but does anyone know if it's enough that no challenge was filed by today's deadline, or do the signatures still have to be verified? If they don't need to be, then adding TX would indeed bring him past 270, to 277. I didn't check all of his other write-in states but it really isn't necessary to do that if TX puts him over the mark. If we can verify NY, then I would support adding Goode to the infobox, per the discussion about whether and how to count write-in electoral slates here. Per prior discussions on layout, he would go by himself into a third row for now. If Johnson or anybody else matches the Dems & GOP with full ballot access, that candidate would join those two in the top row, with Goode then sliding into the second row. 68.58.63.22 (talk) 05:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * From what I gathered, everyone but Stewart Alexander has been validated for the ballot there. --Ariostos (talk) 00:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Seeing as that's the case (and the challenge deadline has passed anyway whether the NY SoS has come out with an official list or not), then adding TX to his printed-on-ballot access total of 232 brings him to exactly 270, not counting at least a few electors from the other write-in states. Therefore, I believe he now ought to be in the infobox. 68.58.63.22 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.29.133.167 (talk) 01:28, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Personally I think that the 270 electors ballot access benchmark for the infobox should be without write-in status states. But I will not remove him from the infobox before different editors have had their say. Jack Bornholm (talk) 21:46, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I think it should include write-in access because they can still get votes as a write-in candidate. --Creativemind15 (talk) 21:52, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we could put an asterisk or special mark of some kind to denote a candidate like Goode who can theoretically win 270 electoral votes but is not on enough acutal ballots that add up to that amount.--JayJasper (talk) 21:56, 12 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Only reason I added him is Texas requires write-in candidates to nominate their own slate of electors. Texas alone would be enough to push him over that edge of 270. So, theoretically, he could win the state and its electoral votes. With other write-in states I am not sure if they force elector slates, so I went with the only one that had been previously confirmed to require such a slate. Therefore, I think that he should be included, but with a proviso as JayJasper has suggested. --Ariostos (talk) 22:00, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I recommend to anyone new to this discussion that they glance through this section before leaving their thoughts here, as it provides a background on how different states have different laws regarding write-ins (including some that have been confirmed to not require a full electoral slate), and outlines the tentative consensus that editors are operating under here regarding this (which of course may be revised). An excerpt:

''"By default, we will not count write-in states for the purposes of the infobox (inclusion and/or listing order), unless an editor can provide a source(s) that shows a.) The candidate has officially filed with the state and b.) that state's laws require a full slate of electors to have been filed before such a petition is deemed complete. If b. is not met, then another source would be needed to show that the candidate has voluntarily provided an electoral slate, and that slate has been accepted by the state. If all such sources are in order, we'll mark the applicable states within the list of all write-in states claimed by that candidate in such a way as to indicate that it has been confirmed elector candidates exist to be voted for there. This could be done with an asterisk or on a separate line...this would only apply to candidates who are on the ballot as a party's nominee in another state. Candidates who are not listed on any ballot and are therefore "write-in only" are not typically notable enough to be included, per WP:BIO."''

Of Goode's write-in states, only TX (so far) has been documented to require a full slate. So, Anderson may also be added to the infobox if it can be documented that, across his other 13 write-in states, at least 80 more electors were required to be on file (270-152-TX=80). We may want to merge this thread with the "What to Do with Constitution Party" thread above. I also support placing a mark in the box like JayJasper suggested unless/until Goode reaches 270 w/o write-in access, which could say something short like "access to electoral vote majority includes select write-in states".

On a different note, as an update to this, it appears that the KS Reform Party has changed its endorsement from Baldwin to Goode, which is interesting because it may be the only case this year of a state branch of a national party endorsing the nominee of a different national party (who is different from their own national nominee, Andre Barnett). 68.58.63.22 (talk) 23:52, 12 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.29.133.167 (talk)


 * Even though a write-in candidate would ever win anything is highly unlikely we have been talking as it was a fact that if such a thing occured in a state where a slate of electors are not submitted the votes would be disregared. Pardon me for saying but that sounds very unlogical. If the processs of registering as an offical write-in candidate has been completed according to state law regardless of this law requires a full slate submitted or not means that the write in vote is counted. That is what every online voting guide I have been glancing through are saying: If you want to vote for a write in remember to check at your local state goverment if your candidate is proper registered. Nothing about any candidate where your vote will count unless of course if your candidate wins and then it will not count. Either they are officially recogniced as write in candidates or they are not. There is nothing in beetwin. Jack Bornholm (talk) 12:11, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * So you think we should count both standard Ballot Access and Write-Ins at an equal level? I'll tally them together just to see what the result would be for the various candidacies if that were the case. Ariostos (talk) 16:27, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Stein: 465
 * Goode: 454
 * Anderson: 324
 * Hoefling: 142
 * Alexander: 134
 * Barnett: 67


 * The above are what the recalculated results if we were to include Write-In states the same as Ballot States, which would result in Anderson also making it into the Info-box. At least at that point we would have a full six rather than an awkward blank space. Still, I'm on the fence, and we don't have all the write-in status anyhow. Ariostos (talk) 16:38, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I dont think the write in should count in the infobox at all! That means out with Goode. All I am saying is that we cant count one official recogniced write in status in one state different than in the other state. What must be the criteria is: Are your vote counted if you write in the candidate. If a majority writes in a candidate and their vote are counted then he wins the state slate or not slate. A vote is either counted or disregarded it cant be inbetwin. I do think that the could be a good criteria for inclusion in the article with own subsection as such.
 * Infobox: More than 270 electors - only ballotlines count.
 * Full mentioning in nomination subsection, with more than just ballot access but also two lines about their nominationprocess (For the rest a line or two about all the many parties running candidates and else all the info in the main third candidate article.): More than 270 electors - write in counts too.
 * See the discussion above How many third party candidates should be listed? Jack Bornholm (talk) 20:25, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * They have to be counted differently though, because if they don't commit to a full slate, they technically cannot receive all the electoral votes. When one votes for President, they are voting for the electors who have promised to vote for that candidate in December, when the electors meet. However, should the elected slate not be full, they can't substitute other electors to cover the now empty seats. I am not sure what exact measure occurs at this point, but I believe any elector seats not taken by the winning slate, are taken by the slate that placed second. So to properly calculate this, we would need to know with certainty that a candidate filed for electors, and how many. I argue in favor of Texas only because it is required for a write-in candidate to file all 38 potential electors, so we know anyone there has the max of 38. However in someplace like Indiana, you are only required to file a single elector to qualify, and so some of the candidates might not have full slates. It's for this reason we can't give every state equal weight when considering the Write-Ins. --Ariostos (talk) 23:48, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Correct. As has been alluded to a few times here, when people vote for Obama, for example, they are really casting a number of votes at once equal to the number of electoral votes their state has in support of electors who have pledged to support that candidate and/or party come December (it used to be possible to vote for electors individually). The modern practice of listing just a candidate's name on the ballot obfuscates this reality in order to make the process more straightforward for voters. I completely agree, Jack, that it is very logical to assume any state that bothers to have a process to certify people as being "offical" write-in candidates whose votes get to be tallied would also have provisions for what would happen in the event that candidate wins with respect to the Electoral College. If you read through the older discussion on write-ins that I linked to, you'll notice I once believed the same thing. However, once I began to read through the actual election laws of various states, it became clear that few states have actually thought these things through (which I suppose can be forgiven given how unlikely it is for a write-in to win), and those that do have very different rules. Some require a full slate of electors (like TX or MO), some don't mention electors at all, some have provisions to replace absent/unfilled elector spots, and others are silent on the issue of vacancies. Some, like IN, strangely take the time to include a requirement for 1 elector but not a full slate. I think it is a safe assumption that should a write-in win the popular vote & not already have a full electoral slate ready to support him, the state legislature and/or Governor would convene and select electors for that candidate, a power states reserve and may exercise at any time before the votes are tallied by the Congress. However, that they would do so is still just an assumption, and therefore I don't think should be employed to assert that a certified write-in candidate is guaranteed representation in the Electoral College under existing law. For example, I find it pretty likely that if Goode were to win the popular vote in IN and the margin is close, the Republicans (or whoever is second) would challenge the "intent" of a number of those write-in votes (spelling, illegibility, etc.) and the GOP-controlled legislature would intervene to certify the Republican-pledged electors for the 10 vacancies (if Goode only filed 1), particularly if Romney needs them to win, or split them 6-5, etc.


 * So to summarize, while we have been using (printed) ballot access to determine which candidates are included in the infobox and what order they are listed, that is merely a tool used to support the primary and overriding goal of the infobox as currently constituted- to list "...any candidate with a mathematical chance of winning 270 pledged electoral votes..." It has been proven that in TX, Goode has a slate pledged to him in the extremely unlikely event he would win, by virtue of being a certified candidate. Therefore, he has a non-zero chance of winning that state's electoral votes. That such a full slate exists for him in any of his other write-in states is a fact that has not yet been proven, nor has it been proven that those states that don't ask for them upfront would later automatically provide him electors should he win. Therefore, Ariostos is correct that not all write-in states can automatically be treated equally. Making this distinction makes the accounting of all this rather complicated, which is why I advocated long ago for the qualified write-in states to be marked in some way as to reflect the fact that they can contribute to the number of electors around the country pledged to Goode or anyone else.


 * As an aside, I can see that there has been some edit warring going on with people trying to put Johnson in the top row- I recommend they discuss the merits of who belongs there (and correspondingly, the definition of "major") in the above section concerning due weight in the infobox, so we don't run afoul of WP:3RR. The provisional guideline is only those listed on all 51 ballots should be there. Also, if only Obama & Romney end up staying at the top, is there any way of centering their photos over the other 3? 68.58.63.22 (talk) 06:06, 14 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.29.133.167 (talk)


 * California also requires write-in candidates to have 55 pledged electors. Info here. --Ariostos (talk) 03:19, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of his inclusion or non-inclusion, the infobox at the top of the page looks extremely ugly, asymmetrical and and klunky. Saint91 (talk) 18:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I would think 3 rows looks better (I have changed it to that) Jack Bornholm (talk) 20:47, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * And now when the deadlines of ballot access are past us I think we should included Rocky Anderson too. Yes he might not have enough ballot access but he has done impressive starting with nothing. The rest of the candidates are fringe candidates or from very small parties. Yes, it is not up to the consensus benchmarks but it will give 6 persons in the infobox instead of 5 and that will look better graphicely. And there will by now be anyone else coming from behind. Jack Bornholm (talk) 20:54, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


 * If Anderson manages to gain Write-In Status in California, he'll come bloody close at 245 (35 more required). It would then only be a matter of checking to see if any other states require full slates of electors pushing him past that 269 marker. I'm going to make a more in-depth study of the states Write-In requirements, given we really haven't done so. --Ariostos (talk) 03:44, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Counting Write-In States

 * At this point I think we are going to need to create a new section to explain this. We ARE NOT counting Write-Ins States on the basis of being Write-In states. We ARE counting states that have FULL ELECTOR SLATES. So far, we know California and Texas require a Write-In candidate to file a full elector slate, which is why Goode is in the info-box, and not Anderson. No other Write-In states will be counted, unless one can provide proof that the state requires a full-elector-slate for Write-Ins, or the candidate in question filed a full elector slate. --Ariostos (talk) 22:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I've added this point to the infobox at the top of this talk page. Perhaps the easiest way to settle this would be for someone to just contact the Anderson campaign and ask them what states they've nominated electors in, but we'd have to decide whether we'd take their word for it, or whether we'd want to see actual documents that perhaps they could point us to.  Also, there's the issue of whether we're waiting for ballot petitions to be approved by the various states before we count them.  Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 23:30, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Chuck Baldwin
Chuck Baldwin will be on the ballot in Kansas as the Reform Party's candidate, according to this article:. The Kansas chapter of the party chose to put Baldwin on the ballot instead of the national party's choice, and the state approved that decision. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 05:42, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I have seen conflicting information on who the KS Reform party has nominated. Initial reports said they had pledged their electors to Chuck Baldwin (who is not actively campaigning), but elsewhere it was claimed that they had tried to change their nominee to Virgil Goode. Does anyone know if this decision by the election board certified Baldwin specifically, or just the Reform party's line on the ballot? 173.29.133.167 (talk) 08:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Rocky Anderson's situation
Personally, I think Rocky Anderson should be included in the info box. If you count the states where he has write-in access, he will have more than 270 electoral votes. Same thing with Virgil Goode, and he's in the info box. Anyway, if Rocky Anderson was in the info box, what would be his party's color? Well, I'm suggesting black or white, since these are the colors of Justice. Black would probably better, since it would be easier to see, but we could also change white to gray, like we do with Independent candidates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.130.120.104 (talk) 07:06, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Rocky needs to be put in the infobox! But, when you edit the page, after you write the Justice Party as his political party, it appears as a drop-down box. Someone needs to fix that. But, I really think Rocky Anderson should be put in the infobox. --Creativemind15 (talk) 12:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please read through this, the note on top of this page, and the sections immediately above and below. Candidates in the infobox (and going forward, the main body of the article) must demonstrate that they have filed at least 270 candidates for elector around the country. Printed ballot access automatically confers that they have filed electoral slates, but write-in access, even if it is "certified", does not. Write-in certification only confirms that the popular vote for that write-in candidate will be tallied. Evidence has been found that three states (CA, MO, and TX) require full slates. Others (like GA, NC, and IN) do not. If someone takes the time to pore through the election laws of the 12 write-in states where he has been certified but have not yet been investigated here (AL, AK, DE, IL, IA, KS, MD, MT, NE, NH, NY, & PA) or contacts his campaign for the relevant documentation, then he can be added.


 * Regarding color, the Justice Party's official colors are (if their Wiki page is to be believed) red, white, and dark blue. Red is taken by the GOP, white wouldn't show up on the page, so that leaves us with "dark" blue. However, purple was chosen a while back for the Constitution Party, so maybe there's no hard rule on this? If we're allowed to choose any color, our only option from the rainbow/visible light spectrum is indigo/dark blue, since I think orange & yellow are too similar to the gold of the Libertarian Party. We could also go with the light blue used for ANEL. I think grey should be reserved for independent candidates, so that would leave us with indigo, black, or a lighter variant of a primary color, like pink or ANEL's blue. While I think black would look the best, I'll cast my vote for indigo since it is actually one of the colors used by the party. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 23:26, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

How many third party candidates should be listed?
Soon the deadlines for attaining ballot access will be reached and it will be clear how many states the different small parties will have ballot access in. The last deadline I think is september 7th, and then there will of course validating and challenging for some time. So I think now is a good time to think about how many third party and independt candidates should be listed in this article? There is already a indept article on all the candidates both the party nominees and the ones that lost the third party primaries/convention nominations. This article also includes independent candidates. United States third party and independent presidential candidates, 2012 does need some work but I think it is the place to put every single candidate running for president even those that just do it for a laugh as the Naked Cowboy from New York. If we choice not to list all candidates in this article man of the information would good to migrate to that article. What will be the criteria? I have listed a few options: Personally I would go with number 3. That would practically mean that 4 third parties will stay in this article: The Libertarians, The Greens, The Constitution Party and The Justice Party. I dont think The Party for Socialism and Liberation should be included even if they by some chance should get enough ballot access because its candidates are not eligble to be elected at all. (Lindsay is to young (28) and Yari Osorio is born in Columbia) But what do you think? Jack Bornholm (talk) 08:22, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) All and every candidate will be listed in this article.
 * 2) Only candidates with ballot access to more than 270 delegates will be listed
 * 3) Only candidates with ballot access to more than 270 delegates will be listed INCL. states where they have officially certified write-in status.
 * 4) Only candidates with ballot access to more than 100 (or another number) delegates will be listed
 * 5) Only candidates with ballot access in more than 5 (or another number) states will be listed.
 * I am assuming your question pertains to just the body of the article, and not the infobox. Much like how there are different standards for inclusion in the infobox before and after the election, is there a similar standing consensus that deals with the difference in the list of candidates within the article before and after the election? In other words, how were third party candidates sorted in the 2008 election article before Election Day? If there is no existing consensus/precedent, then I am partial to leaving the entire list we have now until the election (option #1)- that is, every candidate on at least one ballot. After the election, I think we ought to avoid relying exclusively on ballot access thresholds and mix in a little due weight. Obviously anyone in the infobox post-election should be mentioned. The extensive tally we have now of where each candidate appears on the ballot is probably not necessary to have in this main article after the election, so that can all be removed. A section like this would be the baseline I'd use for mentioning the third party candidates in the article, with your option #3 being used to determine which parties get mentioned in such a section. Beyond that, I believe a candidate like GJ will warrant some more of a mention in the main sections of the article like the "Campaign" section (which last time around just talked about Obama & McCain), but that is just speculation on my part and we will have to await the results and the ensuing media coverage to properly assess due weight and the amount of coverage each candidate deserves throughout the article.


 * The question of whether to include Lindsay was sort of addressed when I asked the question of whether the ballot access we are counting up is for the candidates or for their parties. You replied at that time that we were counting up for the parties. That would mean that Lindsay would remain, because voters may still cast ballots for the PSL's slate of electors, who would then presumably cast their votes for some other member of the party if they actually won. Another consequence of counting access for the parties is that Gary Johnson may count Michigan for his total, since the LP is guaranteed access there, and the party has another "Gary Johnson" lined up to take his spot on the ballot if necessary. After I wrote that post, it came to be that some third party candidates in certain states had to get on the ballot as independents rather than their party's nominee, or file just for presidential ballot access, rather than full access for down-ticket offices for their party (such as the type of petition Stein filed in AK). Therefore, the current "Candidate Ballot Access" number counts party access plus such cases of independent or limited ballot access. 68.58.63.22 (talk) 02:34, 6 September 2012 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.29.133.167 (talk)
 * I always forget (as european I guess) that the US presidentiel election is a 19th century indirect election adapted to become a 20th century direct election without chancing the US constitution. Even though 24 states have laws against a Faithless elector I guess a fine wouldnt stop a determined elector. The stand-in Gary Jonhson was really funny reading about in your link, it made me think about the Eddie Murphies movie: The Distinguished Gentleman  Jack Bornholm (talk) 08:00, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I also like number 3. Not every single person needs to be listed, only those who are actually trying to make a point, so sufficient ballot access is a good criterion. As to United States third party and independent presidential candidates, 2012, I completely disagree with including anyone and everyone. All of the sources for the Naked Cowboy are from two whole years ago when he make the announcement just to get some media attention. Has he done a single thing since then? Has he even tried to get on a ballot? To be included, a candidate must have actually attempted to become a party's nominee or gain ballot access. Reywas92 Talk 14:49, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point, but that is for the other article, and it does need some love and attention. Jack Bornholm (talk) 15:10, 6 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I am in full support of option 3. --Ariostos (talk) 23:24, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Support option 3 - too much WP:WEIGHT given to many candidates that only appear on one or a small handful of ballots. Those candidates are covered in United States third party and independent presidential candidates, 2012, which links from the section so it's not like they're being "censored".-Thatotherdude (talk) 21:42, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Option #3. Listing all the minor candidates on this page has lead to a bit of information overload. We should only list the ones on enough ballot lines (and verified write-in status) to mathematically win 270 electoral votes. As others have said, the third party candidates page is the place for a full listing of the minor candidates, not here.--NextUSprez (talk) 16:27, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Option 3. In agreement with the above comments, 3 is the most sensible choice. It seems there is a consensus on this, should we make the move now?--Newbreeder (talk) 19:16, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that there appears to be a consensus in support of option 3. However, I'd like to clarify and confirm what that consensus is for future articles, so I may add it to the note on top, since it appears we're aligning the criteria between who is listed in the body of the article & the infobox (at least for the couple of months preceding the election). It is my understanding that this new consensus applies only to the body of an article after the ballot-access-petitioning season is over. Before that time, we would list all candidates on at least one ballot. Have we confirmed that all petition deadlines have passed? Also, once we make this change, will we merge the "ballot access to 270..." and "ballot access to fewer than 270..." subsections, or leave them separate & re-title them to clarify that the difference is in who is relying on write-in elector candidates to cross the 270 threshold? I recommend merging the two sections, but "hiding" (rather than deleting) the information for Anderson unless and until we have confirmation that enough of his write-in states require full electoral slates, at which point he would also be added to the infobox. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 22:40, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I support the idea of merging the two sections ("ballot access 270..." and "access to fewer...") and hiding the info on Anderson until (or if) we can verify he has full electoral slates in enough states to reach at least 270 electoral votes. Also, I'm pretty sure ballot-access petitioning season is over for 2012, but I can't find a definitive source on that at the moment. If I find one, I'll post it here.--Newbreeder (talk) 19:29, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Seeing that we have reached a consensus on this, I have made the changes that were agreed upon. All candidates not having ballot status/write-in access qualifying for at least 270 electoral votes have been removed, and Anderson is "hidden" for now, as discussed here.--NextUSprez (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to see a consensus has been reached on this matter. However, if Anderson is eventually included, I'd prefer to see two rows of three for aesthetic purposes.--William S. Saturn (talk) 20:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that two rows of three would look better, but the problem is that as things were left after the epic discussion on how many candidates would be in the infobox, the top row is supposed to reflect due weight of who is a "major" candidate, I think as a concession to those who only wanted Obama & Romney in there. I brought up the history of this recently here, which unfortunately went without any reply. Given that the only state where people won't be able to vote for Johnson appears to be Oklahoma, which has a reputation of having the harshest ballot laws in the country, I am comfortable with and supportive of having him in the top row. I'm just unsure of whether we ought to establish some sort of criteria for justifying that, or if it's ok to go on a case-by-case basis. As Jack once pointed out, even if Obama wasn't on the OK ballot, it's not as if that would jeopordize his standing in the election or stop him from being considered a "major" candidate, so 100% ballot access may not be the be-all and end-all of this. Maybe we can keep the existing requirement of full ballot access but make an exception for OK? Or might aesthetics be reason enough to go ahead and make the change? 173.29.133.167 (talk) 03:27, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Party conventions
Now that we've decided to list only the parties & candidates that can mathematically reach 270 votes on the page, dosen't it also make sense to list only those parties in the Party Conventions section as well? Currently, we have the parties that have ballot access in at least one state in that section. I started to change it in order to match the other changes we made, but thought it might be best to discuss it here first. Can anybody think of a good reason not to do this?--NextUSprez (talk) 20:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Ballot Access Infobox

 * I wrote up a basic infobox for the election, given there had been repeated calls for something of this nature, and it never came about. It may need some tinkering, but the leg-work is done. Not sure exactly how to integrate it however, given the size of the table. --Ariostos (talk) 02:46, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I like this in principle, but perhaps it could be made more compact? I changed it to make the checks smaller, but perhaps the best way to go about this would be to have this table collapsed by default.  Also, it would be nice to have two types of checks for ballot line versus write-in access.  Also, maybe we could switch the orientation of the table; this way the full party names could be used along the left, and state abbreviations could be used along the top.  The party abbreviations are unfamiliar and hard to decipher, while state abbreviations are standard.  Or could we change the text orientation to vertical on the top row so the full party names could be used there?  Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 19:37, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * That might work better; I had simply adapted this from another table. What potentially worries me is the length of said table though, were we to switch it around, unless we made it vertical, or reduced them to their abbreviations. --Ariostos (talk) 03:22, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Using state abbreviations should be okay in this context; if it's too horizontally long it could be split into two tables. Either way, having the table collapsed by default would obviate all these size issues.  Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 18:32, 17 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright, I'll change around the infobox according to that formula. --Ariostos (talk) 23:58, 17 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Below is a very basic rough model of how it turned out. In my opinion it seems a little unwieldy, but that is liable to happen not matter what manner we chose to represent it. --Ariostos (talk) 00:28, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm going to limit this info-box to those candidates that are on the ballot in at least three states, just to prevent it from being overly stretched to the right, and I'll also do it by candidate name rather than Party. See how that turns out. --Ariostos (talk) 16:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that the infobox should include Obama, Romney, Johnson, Stein, Goode and Anderson. Goode and Anderson because with enough write-in votes, they could mathematically win over 270 electoral votes. Also, we need to change the Justice Party because if you put that in the infobox, it's a drop down menu. Also, the infobox should be Obama, Romney, and Johnson on the top and Stein, Goode and Anderson on the bottom. It wouldn't make sense to have the major-party candidates on the top and the minor-party candidates on the bottom. We didn't do that on the 1980 election page with John B. Anderson because he is alongside the pictures of Reagan and Carter on the top. --Creativemind15 (talk) 22:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please read the section below, "Rocky Anderson's situation", and the other sections talking about write-ins. If you want to see Anderson in the infobox, you'll have to provide evidence that he has filed enough electors in those write-in states on top of those where he is on the ballot to have reached the 270 threshold. States care about this even if a party if ballot-qualified, and it is even more important to fulfill that requirement (if that state has one) if a candidate is in the more tenuous position of being a write-in. The note on top reflects current consensus on this matter. If you'd like to modify the consensus, that can be done but that's a different argument to make.


 * I do agree that Johnson should be in the top row. In the above section, it is currently being discussed how we can tweak the infobox rules to accomodate doing that. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 00:44, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Goode speaking
We ought to get a Goode "speaking" picture, for consistency with the other four. There are a number of suitable photos on Goode's old Congressional site which should be public domain as a U.S. government work, we just need to pick one. Here the possiblities:                Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 00:15, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I think you guys just put the worst picture of Virgil Goode ever on the Infobox!! We should replace all of the infobox photos with GOOD photos, not with them speaking! Look at all of the other presidential election infoboxes! NONE of them look like this one!! It should be File:Obama portrait crop.jpg, File:Mitt Romney by Gage Skidmore 6 cropped.jpg, File:Garyjohnsonphoto.JPG, File:Jill Stein 2012.jpg, crop File:Rep Virgil Goode.jpg or use File:Virgil Goode, official 109th Congress photo.jpg, and File:Rocky Anderson at MLK cropped.jpg. --Creativemind15 (talk) 12:41, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Information recovered from third party section
It was decided only to included the major third parties in this article and leave it for other articles to describe all the candidates. But this information can be very useful in doing so, especially the many many references. So this is "parked" here for interesed parties to use. Jack Bornholm (talk) 10:29, 2 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think we ought to add a note that Lindsay is constitutionally eligible to be inaugurated president due to her age. JJARichardson (talk) 20:51, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you mean to say ineligible?--75.192.101.177 (talk) 22:20, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Another reason why the cut was made at her, since she is clearly a fringe (bad) or opionon (good) driven candidate. It should be mentioned in the right article: United States third party and independent presidential candidates, 2012 Jack Bornholm (talk) 13:54, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the candidates write-in access for West Virginia based on the WV SOS offical list. http://www.sos.wv.gov/elections/Documents/Write-In2.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chiperdipper (talk • contribs) 02:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Third party candidates

 * Party for Socialism and Liberation
 * Peta Lindsay, anti-war activist from Pennsylvania; vice-presidential nominee: Yari Osorio
 * Candidate Ballot Access:  Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont, Washington, Wisconsin - (147 Electoral)


 * States with Stand-In Candidates - Colorado, Iowa, Utah, Wisconsin (Gloria LaRiva)


 * America's Party


 * Tom Hoefling, National chairman of America's Party, from Iowa; vice-presidential nominee: J.D. Ellis from Tennessee
 * Candidate Ballot Access:  California, Colorado, Florida - (93 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: Indiana, Texas, West Virginia


 * Peace and Freedom Party
 * Roseanne Barr, comedian from Hawaii; vice-presidential nominee: Cindy Sheehan from California.
 * Candidate Ballot Access: California, Colorado, Florida - (93 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: West Virginia


 * Socialist Party USA
 * Stewart Alexander from California; vice-presidential nominee: Alejandro Mendoza from Texas.
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Colorado, Florida, New York, Ohio - (85 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: Indiana, Texas


 * Socialist Workers Party
 * James Harris, political activist, of New York. Vice-presidential nominee: Maura DeLuca of Nebraska
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Colorado, Iowa, Louisiana, Minnesota, New Jersey, Washington - (59 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: New York


 * Objectivist Party
 * Tom Stevens, attorney and 2008 Objectivist Party presidential nominee, of New York; Vice-presidential nominee: Alden Link of New York
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Colorado, Florida - (38 Electoral)


 * American Third Position Party
 * Merlin Miller, Independent Filmmaker, of Tennessee; vice-presidential nominee: Virginia Abernethy of Tennessee
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Colorado, New Jersey, Tennessee - (34 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: Maryland, West Virginia


 * Reform Party USA
 * Andre Barnett, entrepreneur, from New York; vice-presidential nominee: Ken Cross, former engineer, from Arkansas
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Florida - (29 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: Texas


 * Socialist Equality Party
 * Jerry White, journalist and 1996 and 2008 Socialist Equality Party presidential nominee, of Michigan; vice-presidential nominee: Phyllis Scherrer, of Pennsylvania
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Colorado, Louisiana, Wisconsin - (28 Electoral)


 * Grassroots Party
 * Jim Carlson, businessman from Utah; vice-presidential nominee: George McMahon


 * Candidate Ballot Access: Minnesota - (10 Electoral)


 * Prohibition Party
 * Party Ballot Access: None


 * Jack Fellure, perennial candidate from West Virginia; vice-presidential nominee: Toby Davis of Mississippi
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Louisiana - (8 Electoral)


 * Independent American Party
 * Will Christensen, businessman from Minnesota; vice-presidential nominee: Kenneth Gibbs
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Oregon - (7 Electoral)

Independent candidates
The following independent candidates have gained access to at least one state ballot.
 * Richard Duncan, of Ohio; Vice-presidential nominee: Ricky Johnson
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Ohio - (18 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: Alaska, Florida, Indiana, Maryland, West Virginia


 * Randall Terry, of West Virginia; Vice-presidential nominee: Missy Smith
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Kentucky, Nebraska, West Virginia - (18 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: Colorado, Indiana


 * Sheila Tittle, of Texas; Vice-presidential nominee: Matthew Turner


 * Candidate Ballot Access: Colorado, Louisiana - (17 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: West Virginia


 * Jeff Boss, of New Jersey; Vice-presidential nominee: Bob Pasternak
 * Candidate Ballot Access: New Jersey - (14 Electoral)


 * Dean Morstad, of Minnesota; Vice-presidential nominee: Josh Franke-Hyland
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Minnesota - (10 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: Utah, West Virginia


 * Jill Reed, of Wyoming; Vice-presidential nominee: Tom Cary
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Colorado - (9 Electoral)


 * Write-In Candidate Access: Indiana, Florida


 * Jerry Litzel, of Iowa; Vice-presidential nominee: Jim Litzel
 * Candidate Ballot Access: Iowa - (6 Electoral)

Edit request on 29 September 2012
If you count up the ballot status Rocky Anderson has, then he is mathematically eligible if you include places where he has write-in status.

207.177.29.217 (talk) 13:53, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 22:08, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Third candidates
Just one question: Why are third candidates such as Gary Johnson listed in the box above? That's a little confusing because Obama and Romney are the only candidates with a major rule in that election. It is heardly to believe that neither the Democrats or the Republicans are winnig. Therefore I think it's confusing and unnecessary to list minor candidates there. --Jerchel (talk) 12:50, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The answer may be found in the note on top of this talk page. Polls and statistical modeling would say that Obama is the only one "winning" right now, but any person who has enough candidates for elector on the ballot pledged to them across the country to constitute a majority of the Electoral College is listed. If you are asking about why Johnson is pictured in the top row, it is because some one decided to put him there recently, and no one has attempted to revert that. I sense that the majority opinion here is to leave him there, but we are still discussing how that can be justified under the existing guidelines (or have those modified), which state a candidate must be on all ballots to be there. GJ appears to be one ballot (OK) short of that goal. With respect to polling, I have seen a lot of volatility in that, with him pulling anywhere from 2-12% in any given state, which could be enough to affect the election. However, given the subjective nature of polling, we have avoided using that as a criteria for inclusion. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 18:48, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Some time ago we talked about the top row and decided that it should be for the candidates in all 50+DC ballots. As far as I know Johnson is not there because of the sour puss clause in Michigan. I would say that even with all ballot access the third party candidates should not be on the top row because as Jerchel say that would be confusing. And we could enlarge the top row photos a little a making row 2 and 3's photo a little smaller. That will give the right inprecision and still put out all the info. I have tried to do so for everyone to see. Jack Bornholm (talk) 08:20, 2 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Johnson currently has 47 states plus DC, and the LP are currently suing Oklahoma and Michigan for ballot access. Pennsylvania is STILL being validated. Out of all third party and independent candidates, I see Johnson as the only candidate with a shot of possibly reaching all 50 states. The other candidates, Stein, Goode, etc., have an even smaller chance of attaining all 50 states plus DC. With only a little more than a month to go, and the Commission on Presidential Debates refusing to acknowledge third party candidates since Perot, it can be realistically said that Johnson, Stein, Goode, etc. are hardly relevant candidates in a US presidential election. — stay ( sic ) ! 10:01, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if the LP is appealing the 6th Circuit's decision to keep them off the MI ballot to the SCOTUS, but in any event MI's SoS has said she will count write-in votes for Johnson/Gray & their electors. Barring a last-minute injunction by the state supreme court, Johnson is on in PA, as the ballots are already being printed with his name on them, and he has enough valid signatures if those approved by the Commonwealth Court are included. Since the OK Supreme Court already ruled on the Americans Elect ballot line case (not sure about the original LP lawsuit there), unless SCOTUS steps in that state will be the only one where voters can't vote for him (or anyone other than Obama/Romney, for that matter). Have we decided for sure that 50/51 ballots will not be good enough for the top row?
 * P.S. I like your description, Jack, of the sore-loser law as "the sour puss clause"- it really is, since he apparently missed the deadline to withdraw from the primary by a whole three minutes, and that law has never before been applied to a presidential election (one of several precedents ignored in this case). Since Romney has almost no chance at this point of winning MI, it seems Ruth Johnson is just continuing with all this out of spite. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 15:43, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Michigan and Pennsylvania are blue states. Oklahoma is a red state. So, Romney's worst opponent is not Obama, but Johnson? Then perhaps who'd be the yellow state? — stay ( sic ) ! 10:10, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not what I'm saying. Earlier on the GOP was hoping to put MI in play given Romney's roots there. Ruth Johnson, the Republican SoS, went out of her way to keep GJ off the ballot, because the theory was that he would "take" more votes from Romney than Obama. We seem to be in agreement that Romney was unsuccessful in making the state competitive, so that MI is now considered a "blue" state. The reality is that it is hard to quantify this "spoiler" effect, because you would have to identify the second choice of voters, many of whom may stay home if their only choices are the big two. For example, GJ pulls Obama's numbers down more than Romney's in CO, so it varies from state to state. There is no "yellow" state at this time, but in a few places third party candidates look likely to receive a notable share of the vote, particularly Virgil Goode in VA, who I think it can be better argued "takes" more from Romney. So definitely in some states Romney has to worry about people other than Obama. All I'm saying is MI is not one of those states. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 22:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

State Identification for the Incumbent President
I don't know why the state identifications are recently removed from Barack Obama's description (and from some other presidential election pages). Being a president does not take away state residency. In fact, the candidate has to have state identity, because an elector cannot give both votes to his/her own state. -Abstractematics (talk) 03:45, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You are very correct, that is simpy basic constitutionel knowledge. Maybe there have been a bit of disruptive editing? In any case feel free to add it in other articles too. Thanks for noticing. Jack Bornholm (talk) 13:59, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * FYI: Obama is from Illinois, Biden is from Delaware, Romney is from Massachusetts (ironic eh?), and Ryan is from Wisconsin. Just pointing it out. :) — stay ( sic ) ! 07:41, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 October 2012
Ron Paul withdrew from active campaigning on 14 May 2012 but not from the Presidential race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul

frosed (talk) 18:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ I also switched the source to something a bit more neutral. Sailsbystars (talk) 04:04, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Better Image for Romney
Right now, in the infobox, Romney is the only candidate not wearing a jacket. I feel that his image would look more like the images of the other candidates if the following change were made. Also, Romney is the only male candidate in the infobox right now who is not wearing a red or blue tie.

RIGHT NOW

I have noticed that on most photos it is really hard to see Romneys eyes. Either he has very strong eyebrows or very deep eyesockets. On this photo it is still hard, but at least he is not totally eyeless. Jack Bornholm (talk) 09:12, 6 October 2012 (UTC) Jack Bornholm (talk) 09:12, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

These two look good for now. After the election, we need to change it to Obama's official portrait cropped and another pic of Romney. --Creativemind15 (talk) 19:07, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Creativemind that these 2 photos are superior to the ones currently used, and that we should use them until election day.--Rollins83 (talk) 19:40, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

I also agree. The current picture of Romney makes him look angery and flustered. The proposed picture casts him in a more neutral light. I think that the picture should be switched out. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 19:43, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


 * My thoughts exactly. But as a note, when you crop a picture, you should upload the cropped version as a new picture, otherwise the old version becomes inaccessible and can't be used elsewhere. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 20:04, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that this pair of pics is the best to use for the pre-election phase, then we go "formal" post-election.--Thatotherdude (talk) 15:13, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've separated the cropped and uncropped files and I'll put these in the infobox. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 19:14, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Ron Paul
Ron Paul did not technically withdraw on May 14th. This needs to be changed, as his campaign continued until the day Romney was elected as the nominee at the RNC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.120.129 (talk) 03:39, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I have amended that statement to make it clearer.--Rollins83 (talk) 14:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Conformity with other election pages
By removing all mention of third party candidates with less than 270 elector ballot access large amounts of information has now been lost that is not listed anywhere else. If this page is not going to list ballot access information for all of the candidates, than at the very least a subsidiary page consisting off all ballot access information for all candidates in this presidential election should be made.XavierGreen (talk) 15:38, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This page have been made some time ago but it badly needs help. Go to: United States third party and independent presidential candidates, 2012 see also the talkpage. 85.83.95.235 (talk) 10:38, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree the information is valuable. I figured that someone was going to add a table like the one posted above in "Ballot Access Infobox" to the article. Something like that should be in this article, the third party candidates article, or both once we've made sure it's up to date. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 18:58, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The information should be added to the main article on third party candidates and it can be retrived through the history. Jack Bornholm (talk) 08:18, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Why even bother at all? All those extra candidates seem like nothing much than filler to an article space. — stay ( sic ) ! 10:07, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Because this is an encyclopedia, that means it tells more than just what the newspaper print or what the wordbook or a basic lexicon writes. It simply have to be put in the write article. And this article is not it. I believe that many of these information is missing in the United States third party and independent presidential candidates, 2012, especially the many references witch I from experience know takes hours to collect. So for those that have the time to incorperate these information in the main article I have recovered them and are putting them here and on the main articles talkpage. Happy work Jack Bornholm (talk) 10:18, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And just how would that improve the overall quality of the article? This should be about the 2012 presidential general election and what matters most about that election. Not about a list of people that decided to run for office as a fringe candidate who nobody has even heard of. Talk about irrelevancy!! Johnson and maybe Stein, I could understand, but including X, Y and Z would simply make the article more confusing and distract readers from the main point of the article. To reiterate what I've said bluntly, it's mostly filler that nobody will care about and stuff that likely won't make a difference. — stay ( sic ) ! 10:50, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Jack's work was interesting to me. Having grown up in Utah, the formation of the Justice Party (now sixth) is very interesting! And who can say what will be important in the future? Jack's work is encyclopedic. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 11:21, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you understand that we are not talking about putting a list of people that have by the way not only decided but have actually got ballot access in this article? This list was rightly so capped after a fair discussion (see the discussion above) to only included 4 major third parties and I think you are right there should be more than simply a list of those 4. I have already written a few lines on the Justice Party and maybe others will write about the nominationprocess and politics of the other 3 before I get around to it. Discussing if the Justice Party should be a part of this article is for the discussion above and to me it seems that a consensus have been made days ago on option 3 (that is to add the write inn states to the "real" one and include all the candidates that have more than 270 then in the article, even though not in the infobox)
 * But as XavierGreen correctly say: There should be a place for the other informations. And there is, just like in the elections of the past this election also have an article that includes all the many canidates that have not simply been thinking about running, anyone can do that, but have been able to get their name on at least one ballot. That article is called: United States third party and independent presidential candidates, 2012. Right now this article is not up to standard to its predecessors as it does not include all the candidates that have now been stroken from this article. It seems that no work have been done on that article for a long time and it does mention candidates that are not running but simply have been thinking about it months ago. For the benefit of the whole Wiki and especially for this series of articles the valuable information and references that have been gathered and misplaced in United States presidential election, 2012 should not be vasted but incorperated where it is suppose to be according to old established consensus. Jack Bornholm (talk) 11:39, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I may be wrong, but it's not clear to me that we decided to have a different criterion for the body of the article than the infobox. If Anderson isn't in the infobox pending verification of his write-in elector nominees, shouldn't he be excluded for now from the article body, too?  (P.S. I sent an email to Anderson's campaign asking them how many electors they nominated in each write-in state; if I get a response that should help in clearing this all up.)  Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 19:09, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * We havent decided if there should be different criterions at all because deciding to migrated the complete list of candidates to its main article we have simply not discussed the infobox at all. Who will be in the infobox is another discussion, and one where the feelings runs a little hot. We seems to be using more time discussing the infobox in all its many variations than we use on actually writting this article . Whatever we decided for the infobo now and in the near future a consensus after the election has been established in older articles. That is: The infobox includedes all candidates with at least one elector (not faithless) or with more than 5 procent of the popular vote. So in all cases that is what will happen already a month from now. We have also decided to change the photos then to the more official looking photos as they are used in other articles to also show artistly that the election is over. I hope I have remembered the results of many long discussions right. Jack Bornholm (talk) 13:47, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually Antony-22 is correct. The consensus from the above section over who should be in the body of the article after all state ballot petition deadlines have passed is: "only candidates with ballot access to more than 270 delegates (sic) will be listed including states where they have officially certified write-in status." That is the exact same criterion used for inclusion in the infobox, as covered by the note on top. Thus, the body & infobox are now "aligned" or in-sync as I put it in that discussion. There have been a bunch of people here asking to see Anderson put in the infobox, but few of them (except Antony-22 and maybe one or two others) have attempted to find evidence that he actually has access to 270 or more electors (and therefore could theoretically win, or more precisely, to use the informal phrase, become president-designate). Just as with the infobox, all information on Anderson should be hidden in the article until such sources are found. Ballot information for all the other candidates was deleted (and restored in the below section) because they had no prospect of getting to 270 this year, but we are uncertain if Anderson has. Please see my comments in the "Ballot Access Infobox" and "Rocky Anderson's situation" sections for information on which states we still need citations for. You are correct, Jack, on the post-election criteria and the photos. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 15:16, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yesterday, Jack, you wrote while reverting the removal of the Justice Party from the article "Consensus according to now archived discussion was to include in this section [those] that had 270+ access including all write-in without concern about slates (In the discussion called option 3) This has nothing to do with the infobox!". I'm afraid this is incorrect. I quoted option 3 above (original discussion here), and it said nothing about write-in slates. Absent a direct mention, because access to 270 can only be achieved if 270 or more candidates for elector have been nominated and certified, it follows that just as with the infobox, sources need to be found within state election law, from the Anderson campaign, the websites of Secretaries of State, etc. that this has happened. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see Anderson in the article & infobox too, because I imagine he did manage to cobble together enough elector candidates in the end. However, we need to go about it the right way and find the appropriate documentation for that. At this point, it doesn't make sense to have that one party in the article but not in the infobox. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 00:44, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I took a look back in the archive and found option 3: Only candidates with ballot access to more than 270 delegates will be listed INCL. states where they have officially certified write-in status. Some states requries slates to be filled and some dont, this has been discussed about the infobox, but this is not about what will be in the article for a few weeks and then removed after the election but what will be in the article for the future. Which third party candidates will be mentioned shortly in this article and which will only be mentioned in the main article on third party candidates. The Justice Party candidate have been certified as write in and have ballot access together in enough states. Please dont mix up a very high profiled discussion about a infobox that consesensus says will be changed in less than a month anyway and what should be in the article for good. Jack Bornholm (talk) 02:56, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What you emphasized in bold is what I quoted above- I agree that is the consensus. The operative clause there is "access to more than 270 delegates"... a candidate can't have 'access' to 270 delegates/electors if they haven't nominated that many either individually or as part of a slate across the country. As has been discussed before, 'official certified write-in status' does not, despite the sound of it, automatically confer access to that state's electoral votes in the event of a popular vote victory. If you wanted the consensus to be what you're suggesting it is, a way to phrase that may have been:
 * "Only candidates recognized in enough states that together may cast 270 or more electoral votes, regardless of whether electoral slates have been submitted by the candidates or parties to those states before the election, whereby that recognition involves a candidate having their name or party printed on the state's ballot or certified as an official write-in thereof with their popular vote tabulated, are included in the body of the article."
 * The bottom line is that the consensus, as I understand it, is that for the infobox for the entire period leading up to Election Day (beginning with the emergence of a presumptive nominee from each major party), and this article for perpetuity (beginning on the date of the very last ballot petitioning deadline of a state within the country) will list all candidates who could have theoretically won the presidency through a majority of an Electoral College first pledged to them in November (ignoring the possibility of faithless electors or an election thrown to the House). We simply haven't been able to prove yet that Anderson and the Justice Party can theoretically do that. Prove that, and he will have earned a spot in the article. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 04:39, 12 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Now, if you feel that, regardless of the electoral vote access issue, the Justice Party should be in the article, then that's fine, but we ought to be clear that the 270 benchmark is the minimum threshold for inclusion rather than a maximal cutoff (as it is for the infobox), and then proceed to discuss the merits of why they should be in the article, independent of ballot access. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 05:02, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Early voting chart
Reader feedback suggests that many viewing this page want to learn when early voting or absentee voting begins for their particular state. Perhaps we can add a chart.--William S. Saturn (talk) 21:14, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Good idea. These maps are a good place to start. If primary references are needed, here is a post for all the states that offer early voting. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 21:25, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposal: Add map to template
I move to add this map to the template. It's a fair map showing the electoral college and recent polling trends for each state. I feel it would be a good placeholder before the actual electoral map can be added.--William S. Saturn (talk) 01:07, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * There are a few problems with that map. Mitt Romney has not had the lead in a single PA poll going back several months. The last one I could find was a Susquehanna poll from February 6, where Romney held a bare 2 point lead, and I wouldn't consider that "recent." Obama has also never led by less than 6 in CT. TN has been sparsely polled, but I've never seen Obama leading there. Only 2 of the last 25 polls going back to last November have Obama leading in MO, and those were each by a point, the most recent being from August- it's not really considered in play by either side. NC has seen Obama & Romney trading leads. There are really only 9 swing states at this point (from east to west)- NH, VA, NC, FL, OH, WI, IA, CO, and NV. Obama could also conceivably pick up AZ, IN, MO, MT and NE's CD 2 if it's a landslide election or if Johnson pulls enough of the vote, and Romney could add Maine's CD 2, MI, NM, and PA to his column if he won by a landslide, but no one expects that to happen, and neither do the polls. If the map was fixed and the swing states were better emphasized I might support its inclusion, but with less than a month to go maybe we're better off just waiting for the final results. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 03:15, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is a map that gets updated very frequently and I dont think we simply could just assign states as swingstates or not. Polls have a margin of error and as long as the spread is not over that margin a state is not save for a candidate. That includedes PA, MO and so on. Some might simply look at a poll without thinking how it was made but I dont think we should. This map is extremely conservative in assigning states to a candidate, just one poll with the spread under ther margin of error will move the state back into the contested colum. It is also neutral because it doesnt speculated on what the polls means. Is the small led in PA worth more than the small led in MO? Not up to Wikipedia to say. Jack Bornholm (talk) 09:17, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think any state where two candidates are statistically tied should have it's own color like purple, yellow, or white, otherwise readers may be misled and have the impression that there exists a poll in CT, for example, where Romney is leading. The color key on the map template says as much- where red is "Mitt Romney leading recent polls." Obama has held a lead outside the MoE in every CT poll except the most recent Rasmussen poll, which technically indicates a statistical tie (due to the low sample size) but begins by saying "President Obama continues to lead Mitt Romney in Connecticut."


 * Also, how does this map define "recent"? Just the very latest poll? Any poll in the last month? What if multiple polls come out in one day? Does just one of them have to indicate a statistical tie to throw a state into the tossup column, even if it's a complete outlier? Do we consider polls of likely voters or registered voters (if published concurrently)? Do we give preference to 2-way polls, or polls that include Johnson, Stein, et al? If you include Johnson, Obama pulls into a statistical tie in MT.


 * If NC has been colored solid Romney just because of the Oct. 8 Gravis Marketing poll, then that's giving that firm way to much consideration. If there's one polling firm to ignore, it's them. They have had a consistent Republican bias (due to demographic weighting they have not seen fit to make public, and performed by their 3-4 listed employees, all Republicans, who only call landlines) that makes Rasmussen look like PPP. Speaking of Rasmussen, they released a poll today once again showing a statistical tie, so I guess that would change NC back. It does appear that looking at the latest poll that MO & TN are within the full MoE, although the latest TN poll is about a month old and just barely within it, with an 8-pt. Romney lead and 4% MoE- we may want to change that state to how SC or KS look. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 00:13, 12 October 2012 (UTC)


 * For the sake of neutrality, I suggest we do the same thing RealClearPolitics does with their map, and follow their polls. That would be much simpler that the one we currently have up, easier to understand, and easier to edit (given I have never succeeded in creating those two color slashes outside of Paint, and even then............). Unfortunately that would mean the other candidates get the short end of the stick, but we have to work with what we have; there simply aren't enough polls with them alone for us to try and work exclusively with those. --Ariostos (talk) 00:35, 12 October 2012 (UTC)


 * This is one I quickly threw together based on the RealClearPolitics Map. And only now do I notice Romney and Obama got cut off at the end there. --Ariostos (talk) 01:06, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is a good map. Nate Silver's map over at 538 is in my view even better, since he takes into account pollster house effects, historical trends, economic factors, local fundraising, etc. After taking out every state that has a >90% chance of going to Obama or Romney, we'd be left with the 9 states that I mentioned earlier. But either map works better than the current one. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 03:42, 12 October 2012 (UTC)




 * I tried uploading a new version of that image, but for whatever reason it refused to accept the file I was uploading; as in, it would tell me the upload was a success, but the new image would be the old image. Simply uploaded the new image separately. If anyone could tell me what I was doing wrong, I would be very thankful.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariostos (talk • contribs) 22:15, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you Ariostos for creating the map. I agree that the RealClearPolitics classifications appear to be the most neutral since it is largely objective and takes into account all reliable polling.--William S. Saturn (talk) 22:49, 12 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I still can't update my images for whatever reason. Someone else will need to keep watch of RCP and update the map accordingly. --Ariostos (talk) 17:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Finally figured out what was wrong. Apparently you can't upload a file that has the same name of the file you are trying to replace. Strange, but at least I am able to continue making changes when need be. --Ariostos (talk) 19:43, 14 October 2012 (UTC)


 * If you click through to the Commons version of the page, there should be a link near the bottoms that says "Upload a new version of this file". I guess it doesn't work if you use the regular upload form with the existing filename...  Also, when you upload a new version it usually takes a while for the thumbnails to get updated.  If the upload was successful you should see the new version immediately when you click "Full resolution", but the thumbnails will still reflect the old version until they get updated.  Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 01:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Virgil Goode's Image
Would anyone object to switching out the current picture of Virgil Goode with the one on his official profile page? The current one puts him in kind of an awkward light while the other one looks more neutral.Spirit of Eagle (talk) 20:38, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That photo is not current (3 years or older). But if it should be used it should be cropped to be the same shape as the others. On the other hand it will soon be removed from the infobox anyway. Since the election is coming soon Jack Bornholm (talk) 22:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The consensus decided a while back (see here) is to continue using for the infobox pictures of the candidates speaking and/or campaigning during the campaign season, until November 6. Afterward, we would replace all the images with something more formal. Both the proposed image for Goode & the one once shown in the above section for Johnson were more formal and therefore do not meet the criteria. Technically, the current picture being used for Stein doesn't either, but since no one has been able to find a good, high-resolution image of her speaking, that one was used instead (initially discussed here). I do think a better speaking image for Johnson could be found. Do we have a formal image picked out for him if he gets to 5%? P.S. That's rather presumptuous of you, Jack (but I agree ). 173.29.133.167 (talk) 23:13, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I'm new here and wasn't around when the consensus took place. I guess I'll try to improve the article by finding a campaign picture of Jill Stein (there has to be one of her somewhere on the internet). Spirit of Eagle (talk) 00:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC) Edit: I just found two pictures of her campaigning on her official website and a conservative radio show website. I have no clue how to post images to wikipedia yet, so I'll just provide the links for now and see if anyone likes either picture. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) http://www.jillstein.org/napa_house_party
 * 2) http://www.wbobradio.com/tag/jill-stein/


 * See here for a link to a page full of photos of Virgil Goode speaking. If you find one you like better than the current one, then by all means we can switch it out.  Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 04:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Be carefull to read the wikicommons copyright rules, from experience I know that if they are not strictly adhert to the photo will be deleted. Jack Bornholm (talk) 08:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Additional debates
I think it would be useful to add information on the upcoming non-CPD debates featuring the presidential candidates. The Independent Voter Network will hold the first such debate tomorrow night between Johnson & Stein. Free & Equal will be hosting two debates with all 6 eligible candidates invited, although Obama & Romney are expected not to show. The first is on October 23, to be moderated by Larry King and shown on Al-Jazeera as well as streamed online. Their second debate (and the third for the candidates overall) is scheduled for October 30th. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I added the October 23rd Debate, but I couldn't find any solid information on the October 30th Debate. Also wasn't sure about the October 18th Debate you mentioned. --Ariostos (talk) 00:43, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I have changed it slightly to make clearer that it is not an "official" presidential debate and that it only has third-party candidates in it. --Hansbaer (talk) 08:56, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll concede that the IVN debate doesn't really count since it took place online. Regarding the F&E debates, this article has an update on who will carry the October 23rd debate. It will be carried live on RT America & Al-Jazeera English (and streamed on their websites) and also streamed on Ora TV & the Free & Equal site. CSPAN may also broadcast it. It also identifies the location of the October 30th debate, Washington D.C.


 * Hansbaer, there are no official debates in America, just those run by the CPD & those that are not, but thanks for making clear in the article who the attendees are. It might also be worth explaining why Obama & Romney won't attend (beyond the obvious), which is that the CPD contract stipulates that those invited to their debates may not participate in any others (although of course if they really wanted to debate elsewhere, they could lean on the CPD to do so). 173.29.133.167 (talk) 00:34, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Better image for Johnson
Johnson's picture is a little dreary and less appealing than those of Stein, Romney, and Obama. I suggest we use this one instead: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nbarile18 (talk • contribs) 23:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That image has been deleted. Do you have another working image we might be able to use?--NextUSprez (talk) 19:27, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I saw the image before it was deleted. If you can find an additional copy of it, then it should replace the current image. The proposed image looked more official than the current image (which is kind of an akward image of Johnson).Spirit of Eagle (talk) 20:35, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The suggested image was actually the one that was used the first time Johnson was added to the infobox, but it was deleted back then too, since it is copyright to some newsorganisation. Jack Bornholm (talk) 22:39, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Can somebody higher up on the chain please stop the irrational deletion of all Johnson images? This image is a personal picture of Johnson from his own campaign; I repeat, the image is directly from Johnson as his own thumbnail. Somebody in a position of editing prowess is incorrectly deleting it each time we try to modify the picture, and I don't believe that is fair or neutral when there are a plethora of uploaded Romney and Obama pictures to select for this article. g — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.134.97 (talk) 17:47, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * If you dont like the copyright policy you have to make your case on Wikimedia Commons since it is actually on that wiki that all the photos used on wikipedia are uploaded. I had the same experience with a photo of Stein some months ago. But to make it without delection you would actually have to get a permittion from the Johnson campaign. Just because it is from a campaign doesnt mean that the campaign dont have copyright on their material and need to give permission. As you state yourself it is not a free photo it is a photo from a website owned by someone and can not be used freely without their explit permission and they may not want to give it. If they give such a permission the photo can be used all over wikipedia and all other wikies that wikimedia commons works with. It would be illegal for wikimedia commons just to assume they (we) can use the photo from a campaignsite. Jack Bornholm (talk) 21:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Map dots
The dots on the map of party conventions are of different sizes. That could be interpreted as a bias toward the parties with the larger dots. Is there a reason why they are not all the same size? → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 04:55, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You got to be kitting. The two large ones is for the two major parties and the others are for third parties. Everyone is talking about photos and dots instead of writting this article. I am not american and dont get tv from any of the events but some of you must know what substance there is in this election, it can not all be style and nitpicking. This article really could use some good section of NPOV substance. Jack Bornholm (talk) 08:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. Drawing a little more attention to where the major conventions took place is a proper exercise of WP:DUE. With only a couple weeks to go until Election Day (and with many ballots already cast due to early voting, including my own), it's a shame that there is no information in the general election section other than the debates. The section covering the primaries should not be 10x as large as the rest of the article. We are missing the forest for the trees. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 18:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Good Job Editors
I would like to commend you all for including the third party candidates in the main box. Doing so exemplifies Wikipedia's commitment to fairness and neutrality. Anyone with a statistical chance of election deserves to be presented to the readers, and I thank you all for standing up to those who believe our readers don't deserve that chance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.134.97 (talk) 21:05, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the feedback.--NextUSprez (talk) 21:22, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, greatly improved to have them in there. What about Rocky Anderson?  I note that Virgil Goode is there, so am wondering why Rocky Anderson is not yet. GreenIn2010 (talk) 20:37, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I started to try to add him, but it doesn't work so far . . . no colored line, etc.

GreenIn2010 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:50, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * image8 = Rocky Anderson at MLK cropped.jpg
 * nominee8 = Rocky Anderson
 * home_state8 = Utah
 * party8 = Justice Party (United States)
 * running_mate8 = Luis J. Rodriguez
 * electoral_vote8 =
 * states_carried8 =
 * popular_vote8 =
 * percentage8 =


 * Anderson is not in the infobox because no one has provided any evidence that he has filed enough electors and could therefore win. Goode is in there because at least two of his write-ins (CA & TX) require a full slate of electors to be on file, and they put him over the mark. This has been brought up a few times, and you can read through most of those discussions starting here and continuing with most of the topics stored in Archive 11. Even if he was put in the infobox, a color for his party has not yet been chosen, as there was unfortunately little feedback when this was first brought up, so we would need to settle that first. You may be confused because the Justice Party has erroneously been placed within the article- that is currently being discussed above in the "Conformity with other election pages" section. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 21:20, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Anderson has enough electors (346 of 538), so he has to be added to the infobox. Source: http://www.politics1.com/p2012-ballot.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.98.254.69 (talk) 19:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Being a certified write-in candidate (which is all that chart indicates) entitles that candidate to having their vote counted. It does not mean that they are eligible for all those state's electoral votes. For example, in Indiana, Goode has only filed 7 names for elector, rather than the full 11. The infobox is constituted to represent the candidates who can mathematically win, by virtue of having at least 270 candidates for elector around the country, with candidates sorted by the theoretical maximum number of pledged electoral votes they may win (as a substitute for the actual results, until we have them). Fortunately for Anderson, this has now been rendered a moot point by recent evidence I've found for him, which I've posted below. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 23:07, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Virgil Goode
Does Mr. Goode need to be in the infobox as he is not stated as having the necessary ballot access to get 270 electors? - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 10:45, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Never mind: here is a source. I am also adding Rocky Anderson on that basis. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 10:47, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Please read the note on top: "Candidates are sorted by the amount of ballot access they have obtained...including write-in access in states that have had full electoral slates nominated and certified." It has been shown that at least in CA & TX, Goode has filed full slates of candidates for elector, because it is a prerequisite for becoming a certified write-in candidate there, and those states alone plus those where he appears on the ballot put him over 270. We have not found such evidence for Anderson. The article you linked cites a Ballot Access News post that only says the debate features those polling at least 1%, without a mention of electors. You can browse the archives for discussion of this, as well as the section above for a current discussion on whether the Justice Party should be in the article (independent of the infobox). Given the number of people that have been asking about Anderson lately, I'm considering adding another note on top about this. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 11:06, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The article states, "Goode and Anderson both have ballot access or write-in status in enough states to win an Electoral College majority."- Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 00:11, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That website is not a news outlet, it is more akin to a blog. It is also not a primary source. The author was kind enough to cite Ballot Access News for that statement (citation #6), but that cited article does not mention how many electors the candidates have filed, only that candidates who meet a 1% polling threshold are invited. Therefore, it does not provide the evidence required. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 01:18, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The cited article clearly states that Anderson could win 270 electoral votes. Again, it states "Goode and Anderson both have ballot access or write-in status in enough states to win an Electoral College majority." I do not see how I can make it clearer to you.- Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 10:11, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Anderson has enough electors (346 of 538), so he has to be added to the infobox. Source: http://www.politics1.com/p2012-ballot.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.98.254.69 (talk) 18:56, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, as I mentioned recently, the Justice Party is so new that Wikipedia has not decided on a color for their formatting. Even if evidence is presented or consensus shifts to include him, that needs to be resolved first. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 11:16, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Dark Blue. In the few tests I have done that is the color I used, and it is one of the official colors of the Party. --Ariostos (talk) 00:23, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * How would it compare to the Constitution and Democratic colors? - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 00:45, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is something I did a while ago.


 * It might be best to use a lighter shade than what I used, but as you can see, it is far from similar to either the Constitution or the Democratic colors.
 * Considering no text would actually be placed in the background, I would be okay with this color. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 10:11, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Polling map
Is it really wise to use a known conservative leaning outlet, RCP, as the polling map? It's totally subjective when they add and when they drop polls from their average. Nate Silver of Fivethirtyeight says Pennsylvania and Michigan are 90%+ favorites to go to Obama, yet they're "toss ups"? Texas and South Carolina are given a 100% probability of a Romney win, yet they're only "Likely Romney"?

Quite frankly, I don't think a Wikipedia page about the election should be getting into the polling/forecasting business at all. But if we're going to, let's at least be a little neater about it rather than copy and pasting a map from a conservative leaning news outlet. -- 76.99.240.50 (talk • contribs) 18:40, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I would hardly consider RCP as a conservative outlet. Also, those colors aren't so much the chance to win the state, if not the margin in which they should win the state; Tossup (anyone's game), Leaning (5% Lead), Strong (10% Lead), Solid (15% or more). So yes, Romney is going to win Texas for example, but there is a good chance it won't be by a overwhelming margin (above 60%) as one would expect. Same for the Dakotas and Montana. --Ariostos (talk) 18:55, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * From Wikipedia's own page on RCP: "They have described themselves as frustrated with what they perceive as anti-conservative, anti-Christian media bias,[4] and while Patrick Stack of Time magazine has described the commentary as conservative-leaning,[5] the site includes columns and commentary from both sides of the political spectrum." Anti-christian Anti-conservative media bias? Come on, that's generic Republican boilerplate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.240.50 (talk) 19:00, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I've found their polls to be scientific and without significant bias. However, we could just use the polls from a source that is more commonely accepted as reliable if this becomes a significant issue. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 20:17, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem is that their complete subjectivity, which is especially dangerous when they have a distinct political lean. Their percentages are completely arbitrary (Why is a Romney +4.9 state any less likely to go for Romney than a Romney +5.1 state)? And they also don't even follow their rules at all times, as the last South Carolina poll showed Obama ahead by 3, yet they have it as "Strong Romney". Another problem with their subjectivity is when they drop polls from the average. They have absolutely no set time frame for this. Why is an Iowa poll showing Romney ahead by 1 point (field dates 9/25 - 9/27) still in the average, but a poll showing Obama ahead by 4 in Colorado (field dates 10/4 - 10/5) not included? There are countless more examples of this, and they almost always correlate with their partisan lean. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.240.50 (talk) 20:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * A South Carolina poll from Dec. 2011, in the very midst of the inter-party fighting on the Republican side, shows Obama with an advantage. There has been little to no polling in South Carolina, and so the best one can do is judge. Right now, RCP is judging a Romney win in South Carolina by a good margin. Percentages are not that arbitrary, in that the way they display it best shows the battleground states at that time, and those in which a specific candidate is winning that fight by a considerable amount; the line has to be drawn somewhere, and (5%) seems relatively fine for that. Every poll for Colorado is more recent than the one you are mentioning, and if they wanted a partisan lean they could have included the (3%) Romney lead poll that is only a day older than that one. And with Iowa, there haven't been that many polls either, and they are including another poll that gives Obama a (7%) lead, so I don't see how that constitutes some sort of agenda. I believe they are neutral polls-wise, and I'm sticking by that. --Ariostos (talk) 21:10, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * It's not about what you believe, it's about facts. The poll you mentioned showing Romney up 3 has already been replaced by another poll from that same organization (and they do not include the same organization twice in their average), so no, they couldn't have included it if they wanted a partisan lean. Why is a poll that is taken 10/4 - 10/5 not included in the average but a poll taken 9/25 - 9/27 is? The answer is simple, because the poll conducted from 9/25 - 9/27 told them what they wanted to hear. Here's another example: The only poll taken in Kentucky shows Romney up by 14 points, so it is "solid Romney". The aggregate of polls in Washington state shows Obama ahead by 16.3 points, yet it is only "likely Obama". They're inconsistent, and they're always inconsistent in the same direction, the direction of their partisan lean. I can find dozens of more examples if you so wish, their partisan agenda is easy to see for anyone that doesn't have their eyes taped shut. They're editorials are 3:1 in favor of the Republicans, and you think they should be considered a NPOV source? Utterly ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.240.50 (talk) 21:20, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * How about the map over at the Huffington Post? Yes, the articles on the site have a liberal bent, but they seem pretty thorough with this data. For example, their FL poll page has what appears to be a full history of all the polls taken there, without the selective removal that IP 76 is concerned about RCP doing. It also seems to be updated frequently. While Nate Silver's map has the projected popular vote margin (and regular polling average) for each state, you have to dig down through the page to find it, with his map colored just based on the likelihood of a given candidate winning. The HP map has both the polling margin and their "confidence" in that by just hovering over it, with the coloring based on the polling margin, like the current RCP-based map. There is also a map over at 270towin, but they don't indicate all the polls they're using, as they only post what they're adding to it on their Twitter feed, so it's a bit harder to follow to know if they're missing anything. They also still curiously still list PA as a tossup.


 * Personally, I'm not sure why Wikipedia has a polling map on the page to begin with. We are an encyclopedia, not an election predictor. I could understand something like it on the poll page, but not the page proper. HOWEVER, if there is a map on here, it should be a map with an algorithm that Wikipedia users agree to (for example, if you say a 10 point lead is solid, then never deviate from that, unlike RCP which is inconsistent with its ratings).


 * Personally, I don't think that the known editorial biases of a certain site or organization should mean we automatically disregard what they're putting out (with the possible exception of the mysterious Gravis Marketing). Scott Rasmussen is a known Republican, and PPP was founded by a Democrat. The NY Times leans to the left, and Fox to the right. But data from all these firms is accepted as reputable and incorporated in polling models across the internet. What we ought to focus on when deciding what to use here (if anything) is what we want it to show (polling margin or statistical likelihood of winning), how thorough it is with staying up to date and incorporating all the polls, site navigability, and what sort of adjustments, if any, they apply to the numbers beyond a simple average (i.e. giving more weight to polls with larger sample sizes, choosing likely voter polls over registered voters, etc.) RCP is widely-cited by the web, which is why I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. However, if all they're doing is a straight-up average of select polls (rather than all those available to them), than that does concern me, as we ought to apply some more scrutiny to such an organization (as we should for HP too). 173.29.133.167 (talk) 23:14, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Just to be clear, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, the Washington Post, the Huffington Post and the New York Times all have PA and MI in the Obama column. RCP, the Wall Street Journal and Fox News have them down as tossups. If we ignore, as we should, accusations of political bias supposedly influencing their number-crunching, that's still seven to three. What's more, the last poll to have Romney with a lead in Michigan came out on August 16th, two months ago. To find a poll giving Romney a lead in Pennsylvania we have to go back to February 2nd. By no objective measure can these states be regarded as tossups.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.176.105 (talk) 21:04, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * It's not about how far back you need to go to find a poll where Romney leads. For Michigan and Pennsylvania, until the Oct 18-20 Angus polls, there were at least half a dozen polls (including Rasmussen) in each state this month where Obama's lead was not large enough compared to the margin of error to move them out of the Tossup category.  That is certainly an objective measure.  --Spiffy sperry (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

, It is interesting to compare these two maps: A conservative Real Clear Politics and a liberal Huffington Post. At this point I dont think that using either of these maps as source is NPOV. If we dont want to use the map from the wikipedia polling article, that only uses the latest avaible poll from each state and only looks at margin of errors, the I dont think we should be using any map in the last weeks before the election. And since there is so many polls now this may be the right thing to do? In any case, I am removing the current map since it is clearly not NPOV. Jack Bornholm (talk) 14:48, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request, indoor picture of Obama
Can we either make both pics at the top of the page with both guys outside, or change obama's picture to an indoors picture? I know how to upload a file to wikimedia & check copyright stuff but my changes always get reverted by rude admins, so I wanted to ask permission first. Or we could use a 2007-2008 photo where there's no gray hair. I don't like obama looking older than Paul Ryan. 71.52.199.48 (talk) 07:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)


 * But Obama is older than Paul Ryan. I'm afraid this edit request smacks of PoV, and I think the pictures are just fine as they are. We don't need consistency with them both being indoors/outdoors, either (why only Obama and Romney? Gary Johnson is clearly indoors, also). Finally, I'd say that if your edits were reverted, it's not because the admins are rude; more likely, it's probably because they had good reasons explained in their edit summaries. –  Richard  BB  07:52, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Is this an american thing? Is gray hair on a president not a good thing, grafically it shows that he has experience and are seasoned. I must say that Obama looks very presidentiel on the current photo and I dont understand that any of his supporters would want a photo showing him younger. If elected he will be the 4th youngest second term president and the 3 others are two former governors (Roosevelt and Clinton) and a former military commander (Grant). I would think Obama is happy for all the gray hair he has. Using the 2008 photo would show him as the one term junior senator he was back then and not the experienced commander in chief he is today. Jack Bornholm (talk) 08:45, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I still think this is all beside the point. We're not choosing pictures based on what makes the candidates look better, wiser, or anything else. We're not Obama's campaign team. –  Richard  BB  11:32, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No, you are correct. I am just trying to understand the request Jack Bornholm (talk) 20:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

update
Can we just get another outdoor pic of him with less gray hair and less facial wrinkles? A 50 year old man should not have more visible wrinkles than a 66 year old Mitt "Willard" Romney. President Obama had that picture taken while he was pronouncing a word, which made his facial muscles tighten. This makes Obama look older than Ryan, which is the point I'm trying to make. I don't care if it is outdoors or indoors. I'm just saying Obama looks better indoors or from the photos you can get from the whitehouse website. I'm thinking why Wikipedia editors would overlook this subtle fact, because I pay attention to everything and change stuff accordingly. Why can't I change a picture without getting reverted almost instantly by people who watch the page? 71.52.199.48 (talk) 15:02, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I must say that I personal think that Obama looks very presidentiel, in command and very experinced in the current pictures. It is by far the best photo of Obama used in the infobox. Jack Bornholm (talk) 16:29, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * How do I know if you are being serious? I kind of get the feeling I am being treated like a newbie and subtly mocked about it. Obama looks old, gray hair, face wrinkles, squinting his eyes like a chinese person, etc.. Either way, it feels very disrespectful to read what you're saying and to compare it to the picture I'm seeing. Maybe your monitor size is smaller or you are on a laptop. Either that or you're mocking me and defending the picture and saying he looks "experienced" which is a poor way to treat fellow editors. The pic is awful for the 3 reasons I listed, and you say he looks experienced which is kinda helluva hard to argue against, because that is entirely subjective. :-/ 71.52.199.48 (talk) 17:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No one is mocking you; please see WP:AGF. The picture is fine as it is. It doesn't matter if (in your opinion) he looks older than Mitt Romney. As I said, we're not Obama's campaign team. It's not our job to make him look youthful. –  Richard  BB  17:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not mocking anyone, what I have written is my honest believe. I do have a laptop, a 20 inches one, I dont know if that have anything to do with it. Just to be sure I have tried to click on the image to wiev it in its full size (on wikecommons) and that just makes the photo looks better. Why do you think my honest oppion is disrespectful are your oppion the only right one? My first question are still unanswered, if this is an cultural american thing? That it is important for a top leader to look young because you culture maybe puts overwhelming emphasise on youth and vigor in contrast to experience and old age. I have read articles about such things, but I actually didnt believe it to be true. But even if it is wiki is for the whole world and many other cultures consider "Gray-headedness as a crown of beauty". As I explained in my first comment Obama would be a very young second term president and especially because of that gray hairs are a good thing. I do think it makes him look more presidentiel even though they may be shoving more than they normally do by him being outdoor or the light and I see no reason why my opionon should be called disrespectfull. Jack Bornholm (talk) 20:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Gray hair, facial wrinkles, chinese squinty eyes. He has facial wrinkles because he is pronouncing a word. His hair doesn't look so gray indoors. I apologize for the culture issues. Yes I live in America and there might be some culture differences between us. In my honest opinion (and I heavily lean Obama, too...) is that he looks washed up in this picture rather than exemplifying leadership, professionalism, and dependability. There are hundreds of obama pictures on wikicommons. Can't we just use ANY picture that is not outdoors? I don't think my request is unreasonable. I have not made the change yet myself because I want to discuss on the talk page first. 71.52.199.48 (talk) 00:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It is ok that you think that this photo is bad as it is ok that I think it is good. It is less than two weeks since a debate on this talkpage decided for this photo and it have long been a consensus that the photos will be changed to the more official photos after the elction in a little more than two weeks. So my guess would be that most of the editors thinks this debate was done two weeks ago (check the archive) and there is no reason to have the same debate every week. Jack Bornholm (talk) 14:54, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * So you've outright admitted it's because you lean in favour of Obama that you want to make him look good here. Please see WP:NPOV. We are not here to make any candidate look good. We just provide the facts. I think the picture is absolutely fine as it is. Frankly, the statement that he has "Chinese squinty eyes" is both offensive and racist. I think you better abandon this discussion. –  Richard  BB  19:05, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

If you get off by calling others racist and trying to portray yourself as the victim so others will corral around you, then go ahead & employ self-pity and engage in personal attacks. WP:NPA I am pointing out fair criticism of the photo because his eyes are in a very unflattering magnitude of squintedness. I'm beginning to think you are a Romney fanboy and are trying to sabotage the choice of pictures we use by subverting this discussion. 71.52.199.48 (talk) 10:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not making a personal attack -- in fact, I'd say that you are by saying that I'm portraying myself as a victim. At no point did I even attempt to portray myself as a victim or even come close to employing self-pity. Please assume good faith when I say that these changes do not need to happen. As it happens, I'm not a Romney supporter (I'm firmly in the Obama camp), but what I think you're failing to realise is that that is completely and utterly irrelevant. It doesn't matter who supports whom; what matters is that we are neutral. Your attempt to change the picture of Obama because you think that it is unflattering is not neutral; it shows a clear support for Obama. We are not his campaign team, and we are not here to make him look good. And yes, referring to him as having "Chinese squinty eyes" could indeed be construed as racist. This really isn't an issue; please abandon it. –  Richard  BB  11:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Who is listed first on the ballot?
what canidate is listed first on presidental balot or do it really matter — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conniea18 (talk • contribs) 02:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The listing order of candidates varies from state to state.--JayJasper (talk) 03:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Hoefling
Tom Hoefling has enough electors (287 of 538), so he has to be added to the infobox. Source: http://www.politics1.com/p2012-ballot.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.217.29.128 (talk) 19:57, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Not all states require electors for candidates listed as write-ins, if fact many do not. The source you gave gives no indication of how many confirmed electors he has. Do you have sources that can verify this?--Green4liberty (talk) 20:14, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Rocky Anderson

 * Given the election is in two weeks, and the states are now winding down their balloting processes, I've been fiddling with the idea of proposing Anderson now be raised into the Info-box. Now, he doesn't hit the 270 mark even with California and Texas, hitting around 245, and I haven't been able to find any information on other states that require full slates of electors. Still, it removes that empty space in the Info-box, which in its current form may well only last for the next two weeks, and it weights Anderson on the same level as Goode; it also keeps with the 3 tiers that have developed. Thoughts? --Ariostos (talk) 20:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Have you solved the problem with the missing templates for the justice party? Jack Bornholm (talk) 20:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I had actually created a template for the Justice Party months ago; in the infobox just above with some financial information, Anderson has what I best figured was the Party Color, the only one of their chosen colors not yet assigned to a Party. If need be the color itself can be slightly modified, but the template itself should be there. --Ariostos (talk) 22:45, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Great news! I've finally gotten around to combing through the election laws of Anderson's write-in states, and it appears he's cleared the 270 threshold, and just barely. Annoyingly, several states make no mention of electors when it comes to write-in candidates, but I found that these do: AZ, KY, ME, and WI. We already knew that CA & TX require full slates to be on file, so his confirmed minimum total is now: 151 (printed ballot baseline {the current total of 152 is slightly off}) + CA (55) + TX (38) + AZ (11) + WI (10) + KY (8) + ME (4) = 277 candidates for elector. Proof for AZ, WI, KY, and ME. It was the update from today that Anderson filed in KY that put him over the top. Anderson may now go in the infobox, assuming a color for the Justice Party has been chosen. I had voted for indigo earlier (see here), and it seems Ariostos has similarly gone with dark blue in his template above, so we should be good to go. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 22:56, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Support It's already in prose. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 23:26, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Before Anderson can become a part of the infobox this has to be changed: In using the infobox template a line with the party color does not appear beneath the photo of Anderson, instead a infobox appears. Something is quit clearly wrong with some template somewhere, but I have no idea how to fix it Jack Bornholm (talk) 23:48, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I sort-of got the infobox to work. I had to work around the issue by using | party_name = no and then manually putting in the colors and fixing the names. If you decide to implement this remember that you will have to fix the other parties too by adding | colour# = AAAAAA where # is the number and AAAAAA is the party hexcolor, and will also have to manually set the parties to point to their wiki page. Also, I noticed that the Constitustion Party's color on their wiki page is NOT the same of that which is used in the template, so I'm assuming that that information is stored somewhere with the election infobox and not drawn from the wiki page. Travürsa (talk) 09:58, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I fixed the shortname template for the justice party so it is the same as the rest of the parties. see Category:United States political party shortname templates That solves the problem with the justice party box appearing inside the articles infobox. I still havent figured out what template controls the colorbar. But until that get sorted out it seems that we simply can add the line | colour8 = ADD8E6 to Rocky and not anything more. Jack Bornholm (talk) 11:37, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I have added Rocky Anderson that way to the article. Let the debate continue and if the consensus go against it we can remove him again. Jack Bornholm (talk) 11:44, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Rocky Anderson should be left in, regardless of whether he slips under the "theoretical" threshold of 270, because it is entirely possible for a person with less than a majority of the electors to be elected as President! In the not-so-unlikely event that no candidate reaches 270, the new House of Representatives chooses from among the top THREE candidates. Voting is done by state, which probably means that Romney would win, but choosing the third candidate is not entirely impossible. (This might well have happened in 1912, when the incumbent President came in THIRD, and the Vice President died just before the election!) There are several scenarios in which no candidate receives as many as 270 electors, e.g.:  a tie between the top two, states failing to submit lists, "faithless" electors, death or disqualification of a candidate, etc. With only a few days to go until the election (when this page becomes moot, at best), I suggest leaving Rocky Anderson in the infobox (along with the other three who debated him, last Tuesday evening on CSPAN). Tripodics (talk) 18:16, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * While what you say is absolutely true, we chose to disregard the possibility of the 12th Amendment contingency election when establishing that threshold, as well as what faithless electors might do. If we did account for that, then anyone who's name is printed or is a certified write-in on at least one ballot would be in the infobox, meaning we'd have to include close to a hundred people, since winning one state would likely place that candidate in 3rd place for the House election. Actually, there would be no meaningful limit on who could be included, since a faithless elector could theoretically vote for anyone. There is a difference then between who can win the election, and who can win the presidency. Given there is not much of a limit on the latter (other than the number of Americans who meet the constitutional requirements), we have chosen to rely on the former. One of the reasons behind the 270 threshold is that it is very difficult for a third party to get to that point given the harsh ballot access laws in many states, so if a candidate gets there, that is a sign they have a notable quantity of resources and support behind them, indicating at least a modicum of viability. As a fixed objective line, it was also found to be preferable to having to rely on polling, which is subjective and quite variable. There are links included in the note on top to archived discussions about this if you are interested. However, to your point, Anderson is unlikely to slip below 270 with only a week to go, and therefore is eligible to remain in the infobox for the time being.


 * A couple side points about the contingency election- state delegations would choose among the top three in electoral votes, not popular vote, so if it's a 269-269 tie between the major candidates, only those two would be able to be voted on, unless a faithless elector throws a third candidate into the ring. Also, it is the new House that would vote, so whether Romney would win such an election probably would depend on if his party retains their majority there. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 22:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that the new House would choose among the top two "if it's a 269-269 tie" and no more than two people received an electoral vote. However, there are several scenarios for at least a single electoral vote going to s third person, and this has happened very often in previous elections, e.g. Wallace in 1968, Hospers in 1972, Reagan in 1976, Lloyd Bentsen in 1988, Edwards in 2004, (not to mention the elector who cast a vote for Geraldine Ferraro in 1984, and the DC elector who refused to cast any vote in 2000).  Death or disqualification of a candidate might easily result in more than two candidates getting electoral votes, and there exist several other (albeit unlikely) scenarios where this might happen even without "faithless electors".  If a single CD in Maine or Nebraska went for Gary Johnson (or one of the others), then three names would be available to the House.  My point was that it is THEORETICALLY possible for Rocky Anderson to become President, even if his number slips below 270.  Not that I'd bet on any such thing happening, of course, but I see little reason to remove his entry from the InfoBox at this late date (and then maybe have to put it back if he wins some court case to get write-in status somewhere else!)Tripodics (talk) 06:12, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Quit right, it is only a few days before the election and the infobox will change anyway. Maybe I got it wrong but isent it THEORETICALLY posible for anyone to become president without being on even one ballot? If the president elect dies (and lets us just say that the vice president elects dies at the same time) betwin november 6th and december 17th the electors are not bound to vote for some of the other persons on the ballots. They are free to vote for anyone. Not likely but not 100% impossible either. It is not the house that must elect one of the top 3 candidates from the election if no one is getting a majority of the electoral vote? Jack Bornholm (talk) 19:49, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The 12th Amendment contingency election only occurs if, after the electors meet at their respective state capitols on December 17th, no one has received 270 electoral votes. If there is no electoral majority, the House must choose among the top 3 recipients of electoral votes. I imagine the courts would extend the list of candidates to 4 or more if there was a tie for third place, since the Amendment is silent on such tiebreakers, although that's just a guess. Unlike the House, which would be limited to the shortlist the electors hand them, electors could theoretically cast their ballot for anyone, including those from states that have ostensibly bound them, because the constitutionality of such laws (where applicable- most states haven't even passed those) has never been tested, as no state has attempted to enforce them. The Supreme Court has only upheld the state's plenary authority (see: McPherson v. Blacker (1892) over how electors are selected, not how they vote. Some legal scholars have argued that the act of an elector casting their vote is itself another "election", and thus their ballot is entitled to the same freedom and protection from interference as that of a citizen. So, as I pointed out, there is a difference then between who can win the election, and who can win the presidency , if we take "the election" to mean what most people imagine it to mean- when millions of citizens go to the polls to select a slate of electors pledged to their preferred presidential candidate. Note that I carefully worded the notice on top to say "...and thus the election ...". Since theoretically anyone could garner the votes of 270 electors and be sworn in as long as they meet the basic constitutional requirements (age, residency, etc.), particularly (but not only!) in the situation you described, Jack, then there is no practical objective limit on who can win through such scenarios. There is, however, a limit on who can win the popular election of November, by virtue of nominating at least 270 candidates for elector of their or their party's choosing to stand for popular election, and having most of those people win. This is a benchmark that Anderson has just barely reached. This is a necessary distinction to be made, because if we want to say Anderson could theoretically win the presidency w/o 270 electors initially pledged to him and thus belongs in the infobox, then by the same measure this guy should be in there. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 07:27, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Should we mention Jesus?
Another editor took out the section I added about Bill Keller (televangelist)'s campaign to write in Jesus for president (which has garnered well over 1.3 million pledges so far, or about 1% of the vote if we take 2008 turnout as a guide), saying that because Jesus can't win any electoral votes, the campaign doesn't pass the threshold for inclusion. However, 1% is potentially enough to swing the election (especially since the race is so close). So it does seem as if it's worth mentioning somewhere. By the way, I'm actually quite surprised that there hasn't been more coverage of it in the media, due to the potential spoiler effect and the fact that you'd expect the media to eat something like this up. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 04:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Hasn't this been brought up before? The editor who reverted the addition was correct- the present requirement for inclusion in this article and the (pre-election) infobox is evidence that 270 or more candidates for elector around the country pledged to a particular candidate(s) and/or party have been filed and accepted by the states. A popular vote victory for a write-in candidate does not automatically entitle them to that jurisdiction's electoral votes if they haven't filed any names for that position, and most especially if the person they are pledged to is nonexistent and/or dead. This has received little to no attention by corporate or independent media, perhaps because it is very unlikely that there will be 1 million write-in votes period, much less just for Jesus. Even if this happens, it is also very speculative to say that it swung the election in a particular direction. Therefore, I believe that it would, at least at this point, violate WP:CRYSTAL & definitely WP:UNDUE to place this in the article, particularly when this article is lacking any coverage of the general campaigns of those who are actually running. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 05:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * True, is there no editors that actually know what platform the two main candidates are running on and would the same editors be able to write it clear, NPOV and short in this article. Even if Jesus was on enough ballots he wouldnt be eligeble since you have to be born in US and be 35 years of age (I suppose only years as a human counts), and Jesus was born in Palestine and is only 33 years old  Jack Bornholm (talk) 08:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * @LonelyBoy: No. Please ignore the ramblings of that demented madman. — stay ( sic ) ! 03:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No personal attacks Jack Bornholm (talk) 09:10, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly sure that the NPA rule applies to other editors, not televangelists. –  Richard  BB  09:20, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, please stop enabling those fringe backwards-thinking lunatics by giving them undue weight. That is nothing but clear pro-Christian bias. I suggest you visit the Conservapedia instead. — stay ( sic ) ! 07:39, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that it must either be a nice joke or a protest on the whole system to be voting Jesus as a write-in. But I dont see it as either polite nor neutral to call believing christians for backwards-thinking lunatics or imply that christians must be conservative, there is socialists that consider themselve to be christians too. Jack Bornholm (talk) 21:24, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * NPA is not the concern here. WP:BLP is. Please revise your comments. Calling someone a demented madman is clearly inappropriate. So is calling a group of people fringe backwards thinking lunatics. --Onorem♠Dil 21:57, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Admin note: Agree with the other editors above. NPA refers to comments about other editors.  A comment that is about Christians, while possibly not conducive to collaborative editing with Christian editors, is not a personal attack.  I suggest focusing talk on WP:WEIGHT and WP:BLP.--v/r - TP 00:07, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Expenses Summary

 * Placing this here just so we can better keep track of such. I thought of putting it in the main article, but wasn't sure.


 * Please do 85.83.95.235 (talk) 20:40, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Please provide a specific link to a source. It's not enough to say "Federal Election Commission". —Diiscool (talk) 20:48, 28 October 2012 (UTC)


 * All the numbers came from here. --Ariostos (talk) 01:12, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Voter turnout: which statistic to use -- VAP or VEP?
There appear to be two statistics used to indicate voter turnout in United States elections: VAP (which means Voting Age Population) and VEP (which means Voting Eligible Population). Upon finding an unattributed voter turnout from the 2008 election article, I searched Google for a more accurate number and found George Mason's numbers to be more thorough:. They state that VEP is the recommended statistic, but they also provide VAP numbers.

I inspected other articles and noticed that someone was adding voter turnout numbers for elections from before 2004 from this source:. They don't even include a VEP statistic, they just track VAP.

I tried to find any reference to which statistic was preferred in various Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and essay related to elections and nothing turned up. Any ideas on which statistic is preferred for this election and past/future elections? The only source that stated a recommendation was George Mason but the other source didn't even track their statistic. -- NINTENDUDE 64 14:23, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Very interesting information. I would say that both need to be used in the articles since USA uses a system where not everyone automatically are registered to vote as in many other countries. And since voter registration are an issue in this election it makes it even more needed. Jack Bornholm (talk) 15:18, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The problem with VAP is that some people old enough aren't eligible to vote. About 2.5% of people are not allowed to vote due to felony convictions , so including them in a percent seems odd. If we use VAP, then consider a hypothetical case where everyone eligible votes. Using VAP will put the turn out at 97.5% maximum (there may be more things that lower this turn-out than just a felony conviction, but a felony conviction is easy to count and cite, and is a significant population), while VEP will put it at 100%.
 * Tl;dr, including people who literally can't vote in the turn-out seems inaccurate.
 * Travürsa (talk) 17:01, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * But it will be easier to compare the turnout with other countries since many countries in the western world (europe) dont have these restrictions on voting. Using both with proper explanation will improve the article for readers world wide. Jack Bornholm (talk) 07:01, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Why bother including people who don't count? If a country has a system where only white male landowners could vote, would you think that we should include VAP there? I wouldn't. For your argument, a comparison to "many other countries", you have to remember that the VAP is 237,744,633, while the VEP is between 230,994,094 and 231,193,218, a reduction to 97.2%. Since it's impossible for that 2.8% to vote we shouldn't include them, so VEP, the statistic that neglects them, should be used. I'd also like to point out that VEP DOES include people who haven't registered to vote.
 * Travürsa (talk) 10:38, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * If a country that only allowed white male landowners to vote I would think it was enourmously important to included the VAP. In any system that shrinck from universal suffrage, and that is pretty much all, the VAP counts. Why? Because it shows how if such discrepencies are a problem. What if that fictive country are made up of 95% rual population divided into small farms that all are own by the farmers (and everyone in the country is white). Then it is womens right issue right? Much different than a country where 1% of the population owns the land (and is the only white part of the land), then it is not really a democracy at all is it?. So do how far is this US election from universal suffrage? It might be because of disenfranchising prisoners or others from their voting rights, it might be because problems with voter registration or it might simply be because the voting age population really dont care to take part in their democracy.
 * Whatever the reason is the VAP tells how many procent of the actual (grown up) population that are a part of the democracy in this election, not simply how many of those that have made it to become eligible that actually also made it to the polls on that very day. You say that the VEP included people that havent registered to vote, so maybe we should have numbers on how many people that could registered but are not going to do so. As an international reader I would very much like that information, mayebe it is only very few maybe it is many. But the general opinion where I come from (where everybody is registered to vote) is that are large portion of the voters are disenfranchised in the US and that it is therefore a inferior democracy compared to our own. Simple numbers showing that in this elecetion it is not a third or more of the population that doesnt have any part in the democracy would be most appreaciated. Jack Bornholm (talk) 21:37, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't care enough to read that wall-of-text. You're going to do what you want anyway, so I don't see why I bother ever using the talk page. Travürsa (talk) 12:13, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Re: But it will be easier to compare... The point of the Wikipedia article isn't to compare the rest of the "western" world to the United States, it's to accurately describe the election. I was hoping to see if anyone had dug up any other information from reliable sources on which statistic is more accurate. The source which provides VEPs (George Mason) appears to be more reliable than the other source to me but that's all I have to go on at the moment. -- NINTENDUDE 64 16:44, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You are right, it is not, I was wrong there. It is the job of any or all article on the wikipedia to be written in an international scope so that the election are accurately desribed not only in an american contests. Sometimes articles are labeled with something like that when it comes to small national subjects from around the world. I forgot how the actual label sounds but I kind of tells the editors not to write from the perspective of one single country. It is in some way a parallel to english versus american in the language of Wikipedia. 85.83.95.235 (talk) 23:38, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I can see where you're coming from. When I updated the 2008 election page I added (voting eligible) to the turnout figure when I used the VEP figure. I think it's perfectly appropriate to do that to explain the figure to an international audience. I think anything more than that would probably be over-doing it for the purposes of an info box, and any in-depth explanation should be reserved for Elections in the United States instead of doing it in a single election's page. -- NINTENDUDE 64 19:32, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Voting fraud concern, get more sources?

 * Amid concerns of voting fraud, U.S. presidential candidate Mitt Romney's campaign is linked to Hart InterCivic a firm providing the voting machines to be used to tally the ballots in the crucial state of Ohio. (The Belfast Telegraph) from Romney-linked voting machine company to count votes in Ohio. The company counting critical votes in Ohio and Colorado has extensive connections to the Romney camp. by Craig Unger.  64.109.54.142 (talk) 21:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Early voting results released
I was just wondering if we should add this result from Nevada and this result from Colorado into the table already. TruPepitoM Talk To Me  00:30, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Those documents don't contain election results, but rather the breakdown of party affiliation of early voters. Just because someone is registered as a Democrat, for example, does not mean they voted for Obama. They also give no indication as to who independents voted for. States do not release any actual returns until their polls close on Election Day, as I believe they are prohibited from doing so by federal law. There are also several states that do not ask voters to register with a party. We could compile a state-by-state summary of early voting statistics, some of which has been summarized here, but this information should not be construed as being the actual results. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 02:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

All these superfluous third-party slots in the infobox...
They are going to be removed once the results are in and they haven't won any electoral votes, right? None of the past US election boxes include all the minor candidates. --SchutteGod 70.181.184.7 (talk) 19:20, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe that is correct. —Diiscool (talk) 19:43, 31 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Your answer may be found in the note on top: "After the election, only candidates who win at least 1 pledged electoral vote or 5% of the popular vote will remain there." So, assuming they haven't won any electoral votes, if they meet that popular vote threshold, like Ross Perot or John Anderson did, they may stay. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 22:17, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * 5% and/or 1 electoral vote is the criteria for inclusion, yes, but I don't know why we are including them all when none of them are polling at 5%.  Toa   Nidhiki05  23:08, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Polling % has nothing to do with the pre-election inclusion criteria. It's explained in the note near the top of this page that 173.29.133.167 quoted from.--JayJasper (talk) 01:08, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah. I had not seen that (my eyes are trained to ignore all those beige boxes at the top of talk pages). Thanks for clarifying. --SchutteGod 70.181.184.7 (talk) 02:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Picture of Obama as the democratic nominee

 * It seems wierd to me that Obama's picture as the democratic party nominee is placed close to the republican party section. I suggest moving it up a bit.

Done --Creativemind15 (talk) 23:40, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

When does the counting of votes take place?
This article does not mention when the counting of votes take place and the winner is announced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.243.226 (talk) 15:15, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That's because no one knows precisely when that will be. Some of the votes that were cast early are already being counted, but no results from a state will be posted until the polls there close (all times listed here, swing state summary |head here). Some networks will project a winner as soon as the polls close if the exit polling is very favorable for a particular candidate, but in the swing states they'll have to wait for the numbers to roll in. The final popular vote numbers won't be known for a couple of weeks, as states finish counting provisional ballots and certifying their totals. The deadline to get that done varies, but since the electors have to meet in December that process is usually finished by the end of November. If a candidate has a lead larger than the number of outstanding ballots, then the state will be called for them. Barring a close enough vote in a key state like Florida 2000 where a recount is triggered, the networks should be able to project a winner by Wednesday morning- otherwise, the lawyers are at the ready to drag things out in the courts. A winner won't be officially declared until January 6, when Congress opens the electoral vote ballots sent to them by the states. Assuming someone has at least 270 of their votes, only then will they become President-elect. Until then, everything is a projection. 173.29.133.167 (talk) 19:36, 5 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The official verification of vote totals varies from state to state. I can only speak for Pennsylvania, where the count does not become official until Friday. The numbers released on Tuesday night are only preliminary. Come Friday morning, election officials in each of the 67 counties will do a methodical count of every election district, and submit their totals to Harrisburg, where they will be added together.  → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 03:23, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

For swing states, we should not project a winner until numerous media outlets have projected such based on results coming in (i.e. not jump on the first projection, but that could be mentioned without coloring it red or blue). For runaway states where exit polling alone is sufficient, calling it on one source is probably okay. CrazyC83 (talk) 20:33, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Electors in Write-In States

 * So I stumbled across this web-site, which actually proved to be immensely useful; here.
 * Basically it helped me identify each and every state that requires a Write-In candidate to file a full slate, and it is being built for the 2016 election so it is fairly recent; access to the documents themselves is also granted in quite a few cases, but not all. This is to explain the updated electoral counts for the Third Party candidates. Also, the same page identifies which states Write-In votes are free, or don't will be counted regardless of the lack of any paper-work. Probably should hang onto this, and make use of it when possible come the next election. --Ariostos (talk) 23:55, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The site is a campaign site of someone who has (already) announced his candidacy for 2016, so it is not RS in itself. The info is indeed useful if it is accurate, which it may well be, but a better source will be needed before we can use it as citation for content in the article. Wonder if the original source of the information can be located?--JayJasper (talk) 06:15, 6 November 2012 (UTC)