Talk:2014 Kalbajar incident

One-sided
Article almost only exposes the Azeri version of the events. Will try to add more information to the article.-- HC PUNX  KID 16:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , how so? There's information on how the Armenian government claims them of killing a man while in Kalbajar. There's no one-sided version of the events here. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  17:25, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Properly explain what parts of the article you think is POV and STORY per Template:POV and WP:RESPTAG before adding the tags as there's no way we can know what to fix if you don't provide proper reasons. "only exposes Azeri version" isn't a proper reason. — CuriousGolden (T·C)  16:59, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

CuriousGolden, Solavirum - please read Wikipedia rules first and then edit the articles, this is not a place for propaganda. --Vmakenas (talk) 17:15, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is not a place for propaganda, like how you tried to show this incident as a terrorist attack. Instead of name calling, try to read the guidelines thoroughly. You've only cited Armenian media outlets and claim that I'm the one to write propaganda? What a joke. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  17:21, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , you either chill out and try to achieve consensus, or you're getting reported. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  17:22, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * 1. I'm citing both Azerbaijani and Armenian sources; 2. Isn't taking hostages and killing civilians a terrorist attack? --Vmakenas (talk) 17:25, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The article already cites both Armenian and Azerbaijani sources. Also, no, that's your own interpretation of the events. For as all I can care, the Armenian government might be lying. And trying to call the place Karvachar shows that you don't care about NPOV. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  17:27, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Watch more carefully I've used both Armenian and Azerbaijani names for the town --Vmakenas (talk) 17:29, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The whole article is accusatory here. There's no third-party confirmation on any of these things. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  17:32, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The article should be written by independent authors. The versions by CuriousGolden and Solavirum are unacceptable. The best solution would be to find other authors who know all the different sources and avoid bias. The tag "NPOV" was totally correct. -- PhJ (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * BBC isn't a third-party source for you? --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  19:25, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * BBC Azerbaijani Service? No. --Steverci (talk) 22:10, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree, this article has a great case of POV-pushing. The murder committed is not even in the header anymore, is MOS:ALLEGED to be an "Armenian claim", the woman who was shot in the eye was removed by CuriousGolden. And an armed saboteur resisting capture was "trying to visit their homeland". --Steverci (talk) 22:10, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * These are all POV. Also, BBC Azerbaijani Service is still BBC. With same regard, we'd have to remove Azatutyun from every single NK related articles. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  03:33, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Are we inclined to show Yerevan government's claims as the truth? No. They were not arrested. They were captured by Armenian forces. Armenia confirmed it after they released as part of the deal for exchanging hostages. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  03:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Stop vandalism, as removing all Armenian sources while maintaining the Azeri ones is just that, vandalism and POV-pushing.-- HC PUNX  KID 14:55, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Stop calling other editors' edits vandalism. Read WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH for once --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  16:00, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

There have been several updates to the article since your addition of POV template including a large edit that adds about the Armenian position. Therefore, I believe your concerns regarding possible POV should be resolved now and the tags can be removed. — CuriousGolden (T·C)  15:59, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Page title
This page has been moved to different titles many times. I'm not sure I agree with the current title. The current title would make this article a kind of 2-person biography. Since these two individuals don't seem to be notable outside of the events described in this article, they are most likely not notable people per WP:BIO1E. However, the event itself may still be notable. If that's the case, then the title of the article should reference the event, not the names of the individuals.

I have protected the article so that it can only be moved by an admin. Please come to an agreement on a suitable title for the article (or show how WP:BIO1E doesn't apply to these two individuals) and then ping me and I'm happy to complete the move.  —&#8288;Scotty Wong&#8288;—  01:26, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * How about 2014 incident in Kalbajar? --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  10:09, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * That's better, but not very descriptive. Surely there was more than one "incident" in Kalbajar in 2014? How can we better identify this particular incident?
 * So far, this article has had five different titles:
 * 2014 Kalbajar attack
 * 2014 Karvachar attack
 * Hostage taking in Karvachar
 * Hostage of Dilgam and Shahbaz
 * Hostage of Dilgam Asgarov and Shahbaz Guliyev
 * I assume none of the first three would work?  —&#8288;Scotty Wong &#8288;— 16:20, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, calling it an attack is absurd and POV. Only the Armenian government alleges that they were attackers and that had killed someone. PACE calls them hostages, maybe the Hostage-taking of Dilgam Asgarov and Shahbaz Guliyev, or the Hostage-taking in Kalbajar? --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  17:06, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Hostake taking of Dilgam and Shahbaz sounds the best I think. — CuriousGolden (T·C) </b> 18:29, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Is it POV to call it a "hostage-taking" when the Armenian authorities label them as prisoners of war? Or is it generally accepted in reliable sources that they were hostages? <span style="font:bold 15px 'Bradley Hand','Bradley Hand ITC';color:#044;text-shadow:0 0 4px #033,0 0 10px #077;"> —&#8288;Scotty Wong &#8288;— 18:42, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * They weren't taken during a war, so it's not correct to label them prisoners of wars and as Solavirum pointed out above, Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, a respected international organization regards them as hostages. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 19:21, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * BBC Azerbaijani also refers to it as hostage taking, as shown in the article. Voice of America also prefers that term. Generally, it is referred to as hostage-taking. --► Sincerely:  Sola  Virum  19:44, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * And even Armenia regards them as a hostage as they've returned them as part of the hostage exchange deal. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  20:17, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * There has been no international consensus on the character of the incident. Therefore, it should have a neutral title, e.g. 2014 Kalbajar incident (or 2014 Karvachar incident, as it was under Armenian / NKR control at that time). "Hostage-taking in Kalbajar" would definitely be POV. -- PhJ (talk) 20:22, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The exchange deal was not a hostage exchange deal, but a POW exchange deal. -- PhJ (talk) 20:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * We've already provided sources above of PACE, BBC & VoA regarding them as hostages. Do you have a WP:RS that supports that they were not hostages? Because what you're saying now without sources is WP:OR. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 20:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * PACE source is authored by. BBC Azerbaijan is
 * You're still violating WP:CONSENSUS with your edits. I'd remind you that your friend was already blocked for edit warring. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  20:32, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , again, as you didn't care about my previous call for WP:CONSENSUS, I'm giving you a warning. If you continue with this, I will report you. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  20:44, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * He's still edit warring. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  20:54, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Here you can read why the two were sentenced and why they were released (source: official Armenian Radio / ARMRADIO). You two are manipulating sources. PACE, BBC & VoA do NOT regard them as hostages but cite Azeri opinions. Btw, PACE is an institution dominated by caviar diplomacy. -- PhJ (talk) 22:24, 15 December 2020 (UTC)


 * You've cited official Yerevan propaganda and now doing WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. Anything that goes against to Armenia's state narrative is biased according to you? You're accusing the PACE, which part of the Council of Europe of being pro-Azerbaijani. Your edits are nothing but personal opinion. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  03:31, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * No. You know very well why this articled is disputed, since you are part of it. There are two versions of the story, and there are definitely two dead Armenians, the young shepherd Smbat Tsakahnyan, 17, and the army major Sargis Abrahamyan, 42, as well as a severely maimed woman, Karine Davtyan, 37. These persons existed, the were definitely no fake, and they were victims of a crime. If we want to write an article on the incident, we have to write about this essential part of it. And once again: PACE is NOT an independent institution, read the article cited here. -- PhJ (talk) 08:15, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You're citing former Armenian government's claims as actual truth. Provide any WP:RS that says they actually did the murder. I'm not asking anything else, just show me a WP:RS and I'll add it. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 08:24, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The article already mentioned the alleged murder of Smbat. If you want to add the others, though in NPOV wording, go ahead. No one opposed this. But you and your friends have been trying to show this incident as a multiday terrorist attack. This is your own interpretation and Wikipedia is not your property. The thing is, them getting killed by these two isn't independently confirmed. Most third-party sources don't even mention these three people you've been talking about. So, add them as an allegation, not fact. It is a fact that Dilgam and two others crossed the LoC to visit their homes in Kalbajar, which was under Armenian occupation (this wording in itself isn't POV either). The other elements of the event are just claims by the Armenian government. We can't consider them getting arrested in the lead, as Armenia handed them over as hostages/POWs. Also, no. PACE is an independent institution. If you have a problem with PACE, go over to its talk page. You can't devalue a vital European regional institution because of some corruption scandals back in 2012. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  08:26, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The case was investigated by the Armenian authorities, which led to the conviction of Asgarov and Guliyev. User:Vmakenas did good work to find out reliable sources for the investigation by the Armenians. As institutions like PACE refuse to talk with the people of Nagorno-Karabach and their representatives, we have to rely on Armenian institutions and journalists. In Europe and the US, there was little interest in the case, so these sources are scarce. Therefore, according to WP:NPOV, both sides have to be quoted and their positions presented equally. -- PhJ (talk) 09:52, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You're trying to push the POV of the Armenian government as truth. Add them as allegations, and unconfirmed claims. Then it will be settled. PACE refuse to talk with the people of Nagorno-Karabach and their representatives, do you comprehend what are you talking about? No one recognizes NKR as an independent state, not even Armenia. They're legally not obliged to do so. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  09:57, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, no. He didn't do a good work. He literally laballed the incident as a multiday terrorist attack. Your friend is blocked for his disruptive behavior, and citing him isn't progressive in this case. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  09:59, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * He literally referenced a YouTube video for Pete's sake. You're again not helping us to reach a consensus. You are, indeed, in hopes of pushing the Armenian narrative. If you want to do such thing, head over to the Armenian Wikipedia, but not here. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  10:01, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

--► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  10:01, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * In this case, it is not the question of recognition of NKR but whether the investigations by the Armenians or the statements of the Azeris are trustworthy: that is a different question. -- PhJ (talk) 10:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * As I see, Solavirum has already provided multiple WP:RS, non-Azeri sources that show the 2 people as hostages, yet you still have failed to provide any non-Armenian WP:RS that confirms your POV. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 10:14, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The sources provided were: The PACE source which is a document by the New Azerbaijan Party. The BBC Azerbaijani Service. The VOA which is showing video of Azerbaijani support for Dilgam Asgarov and Shahbaz Guliyev. These are all Azerbaijani sources. Maidyouneed (talk) 01:57, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * VOA Azerbaijan and BBC Azerbaijani Service are reliable sources. We don't have a problem with Azerbaijan-based sources, just like how we don't have a problem with Armenia based sources. What makes these two sources is the fact that they are branches of the sources that have already been recognised as reliable sources. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  23:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Baku Propaganda vs information about criminal case
This article in its current version is Baku propaganda, and so are quite a few other articles on Azerbaijan and Nagorno-Karabakh topics. If there are Wikipedia users able to show up every second at any time, it is very probable that they are paid for this and have nothing to do else. Others spend their leisure time for this and have to work hard in their real life to earn their daily bread. Wikipedia is vulnerable to such intrusion by state propaganda, and the Azerbaijan / Armenia conflict is a special issue where billions of dollars are spent - for weapons that successfully killed thousands of people, but also for propaganda to justify this. Back to the topic of this article: There were investigations of the criminal case, and the investigators came to conclusions. There is no reason to hide this information but the interests of a brutal propaganda machinery. -- PhJ (talk) 09:51, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You should've tried to find a WP:RS that supports your claim or add about the Armenia government's claim objectively in the article instead of writing a paragraph complaining about people having free time to edit. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 09:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * There is no necessity to do work twice. Reliable sources have been provided in this version by User:Vmakenas, among them, Radio Liberty three times. So do not remove these references and the parts of the text referring to them. -- PhJ (talk) 13:50, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Have you actually read those sources? Here's what each of them start with According to the Armenian military; Two Azerbaijani men accused by ethnic Armenian authorities; Ethnic Armenians In Karabakh Claim 'Saboteurs' Killed Teenager. None of them confirm that they are sabouters, they all report on what the government claimed. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 13:56, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You want us to change reliable third-party sources with Yerevan's government narrative. No. Find reliable sources, or stop it already. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  12:25, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * That is the difference between serious journalism and the style you are writing WP articles in. You are the ones who state, "two people taken hostage by the Armenian forces", and this has to stop now, definitely. -- PhJ (talk) 14:07, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Ahh, you again. Your sources also state that these are allegations and have no proof. We have to write it like that. It is a fact that they were taken hostage. We've got PACE, BBC, and VOA sources stating that. Even Armenia confirmed this as they returned them to Azerbaijan as hostages/POWs. These terms doesn't mean arresting at all. Now, can you stop taking our time and rolling this discussion back to step one? --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  15:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
 * There sources you've given are all Azerbaijani, not what I think is meant by third-party.The PACE source which is a document by the New Azerbaijan Party. The BBC Azerbaijani Service. The VOA which is showing video of Azerbaijani support for Dilgam Asgarov and Shahbaz Guliyev. Maidyouneed (talk) 01:58, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

2014 Kalbajar attack
Hello, This article was taken from this page which then had content deleted and was turned into a redirect. Should these two pages have their history merged? The content at 2014 Kalbajar attack is the original article from which this was created. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 05:58, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , hi. I don't know what exactly changed (maybe transliteration?), but this is the original name of the article (which is years old). But yes, both should be merged as they're talking about the exact incident, though with a different flavor to it. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  07:16, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 10 January 2021
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 22:56, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Dilgam Asgarov and Shahbaz Guliyev → Detention of Dilgam Asgarov and Shahbaz Guliyev – These two people are not notable on their own. Its the incident that is notable. --► Sincerely:  Sola Virum  23:10, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination and WP:CONSISTENT. The prefix form "Detention of..." is a standard main title header. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:05, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and u|Roman Spinner. — <b style="color:#c29d25">Curious</b><b style="color:#c29d25">Golden</b> (T·C) </b> 07:26, 11 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 9 December 2021
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 23:33, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Detention of Dilgam Asgarov and Shahbaz Guliyev → 2014 Kalbajar incident – The current title focuses on persons and their detention, ignoring the action the detention followed. The incident (in NPOV language) and its location are WP:NOTABLE, not the participants and not detention. --Armatura (talk) 20:54, 9 December 2021 (UTC) --Armatura (talk) 20:51, 9 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Colonestarrice (talk) 22:57, 16 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support - neutral title and per notability reasons of the place name. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support - as said, the current title puts focus on the result of the notable incident rather than the the incident itself. The current title also places undue focus on the two detained Azerbaijanis while leaving out the killed Azerbaijani and the multiple Armenian victims, all of which are also important. The new title would be a good solution to the issue of neutrality and notability. Achemish (talk) 19:43, 18 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Support: per above, also to note is that the article was originally named as such, and moved without consensus in November 2020. - <b style="color:#d90012">K</b><b style="color:#000000">evo</b><sup style="color:#d90012">3 <sup style="color:#0033a0">2 <sup style="color:#f2a800">7 (talk) 01:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Grave photo
I have moved the photo to talk page to keep it, it can be readded when/if the photos of graves of the other people killed in this incident are added, to avoid unilateral victimisation advocacy. --Armatura (talk) 23:37, 24 December 2021 (UTC)