Talk:2015 World Men's Handball Championship

Deletion

 * Kante4, why did you delete my edition?

You deleted the criteria for qualification/elimination that I added, claiming they were "unsourced". Please tell me, what kind of source does one need for basic mathematics?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.178.19.222 (talk) 17:50, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hey, the same was made for football articles and it was decided to NOT have them included. Everything needs a source as it is original research if not. See for info here and a discussion here. Kante4 (talk) 17:57, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Tie-breaking criteria
"For the group stage of this tournament, where two or more teams in a group tied on an equal number of points, the finishing positions will be determined by the following tie-breaking criteria in the following order:

number of points obtained in the matches among the teams in question goal difference in the matches among the teams in question"

Do you have a source for this? According to both the IHF website and the official Beinsports website (see group A) Slovenia is on top Qatar on the grounds of having a higher goal difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.178.19.222 (talk) 09:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * the system was used for every tournament in the last years. Did not find a link. But they always ranked them after difference during the group stage. After the group stage they change it... Kante4 (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * It is to find in the Media Guide, pages 59-60.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 11:46, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Merci. Kante4 (talk) 14:45, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

ranking positions 9-16
according to the media guide (pages 60-1) you compare the eliminated teams records only using the games against teams that finished first through fourth. So Brazil has 0 points, Austria, Tunisia, and potentially Egypt and Argentina have 1 point each. Then in goal differential Tunisia is then -11, Austria and Egypt have -7, Argentina has -6. Then Austria has 86 goals and Egypt has 74 goals. So Brazil is assured of 16th, Tunisia is assured of 15th, but Austria (and Macedonia) are uncertain so far.18abruce (talk) 20:27, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * MKD 4 (+10), SWE 3 (+6), ISL 3 (-5), ARG 1 (-6), AUT 1 (-7), EGY 1 (-7), TUN 1 (-11), BRA 0 (-10). Ranking. Kante4 (talk) 17:12, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Information removed
Why was the fact that the Qatar handball federation paid Spanish fans to cheer for the Qatar team removed? Also, can somebody explain why. The Controversy section should be there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.23.187 (talk • contribs)

Attendance
The attendance figures are extremely exaggerated. What are the sources of those numbers?--Zyzzzzzy (talk) 10:39, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * In the given offial IHF report for every game. Kante4 (talk) 10:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Information removed
Could we put back the controversies about the paid fans from Spain? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.15.129 (talk) 00:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Controversy section
The controversy subsection 'Naturalization of players' is unnecessarily long. The first two paragraphs do not even directly relate to controversy.

I suggest (per the references provided): Qatar naturalized a large number of foreign players leading up to the championship. The practice was criticised by the Austrian goalkeeper after his team's loss to Qatar in the quarter-final, saying "It [felt] like playing against a world selection team" and "I think it is not the sense of a world championship." At a press conference during the championship, Qatar head coach Valero Rivera declined to comment on the matter. Spanish player Joan Cañellas did not think it was an issue, saying "If they can do it, why not."

I also think it would be sensible to ask contributors to refrain from adding perceived refereeing controveries unless it is from a reliable non-biased source. Elspamo4 (talk) 03:18, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi – I wrote most of that section – my thinking through the three paragraphs was (1) establishing what the cause of the controversy is, (2) establishing that it existed and (3) that some people criticised/didn't see a problem with it. While I agree that it probably shouldn't be much longer (before branching out into a separate article a la List of 2014 FIFA World Cup controversies, at least), I don't think it's overly long, since it has been a major story in press covering the championship, especially since Qatar reached the final. / AB-me  ( chit-chat ) 15:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi . It just seems like there is some unnecessary (i.e. irrelevant) information in there. I was trying to get feedback on what everyone else thought of the section. I won't address the length further if the consensus is that it is suitable. However, I am not sure if these parts belong in the section:


 * Mads Winter - unless he has been related to naturalization of Qataris in the past, otherwise he doesn't seem that relevant
 * "This allowed several foreign-born players, including Spanish-born Borja Vidal, Goran Stojanović and Jovo Damjanović from Montenegro, and Bertrand Roiné who previously played for France, to play for the Qatar team at the championship.". - If nearly all players are foreign, why are these four mentioned in particular?
 * On 'Refereeing favoritism" - this section is in need of attention. I feel that it needs better references. I don't what care if they're in Swahili, or if it's one reference or eight references, but I don't think a German or Polish article should be used when referencing to bias in a German or Polish game. It is very common for a local news agencies to perceive biases towards their own countries in games, especially when the other country are the hosts and it is in the semi-finals. Feedback? Elspamo4 (talk) 17:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sample English source:
 * http://teamhandballnews.com/wordpress/2015/02/ihf-and-qatar-ruin-the-big-event/
 * Cared to search? 85.202.42.2 (talk) 17:39, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry but you can't just accuse of the country's top media being biased or unfair just because they happen to come from a country that has been wronged, they may be more outraged than if they were a foreign newspaper, but they would not accuse match-fixing if there was no substance to it, and certainly neither would the players. The naturalisation of players is unnatural in international competitions and those players have been mentioned because they previously played for a different country, and they were key players and contributor's to Qatar's "success". The refereeing bias was so blatant that I can't believe anyone who saw those match thought otherwise, I have never seen a player been to take steps inside the penalty area and not be penalised whilst the opposition got sin-binned for the tiniest of nudges Abcmaxx (talk) 20:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, Wikipedia isn't meant to describe people's opinions or whether they think they were 'wronged' or not. If it was, there would be a mention of perceived refereeing bias in most sports articles on Wikipedia. I am sure I could even find an Arabic news article describing referee bias in the final against France.


 * PS. There is not even a single reliable website that reported any match fixing. Not even close. They accuse the referees of being biased because Qatar are the hosts, much like Brazil were criticized for the actions of a referee in the 2014 FIFA World Cup. Wikipedia's purpose shouldn't be for bitter people to vent their frustration over their team's loss, but that is clearly what this article has turned into. Elspamo4 (talk) 21:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

What planet are you on?! So far RTL, L'Equipe, Eurosport, Der Spiegel, Kronen Zeitung, ESKA, onet.pl, sport.pl, TVP, Croatian newspapers (Croatia didn't even play Qatar, in fact they were knocked out by Poland), Blick (which is Swiss) and Denik (Czech, so little interest there) even USA Today (!) have ALL talked about the shocking refereeing and how are they not reliable sources? I count at least 10 reliable sources and that's only the sources that have been added by various contributors, never mind the millions more that probably could be found. The referee bias is a FACT, what are the reasons behind it has not been yet proven or stated, whether it was match-fixing, just really poor one-sided errors, or that the Serbian referees just really wanted to see their fellow Balkan brothers advance is all up for debate and subject to opinion. But the very fact the match was outrageously refereed is a FACT, referenced by so many major newspapers ALL over the globe (not just German, Austrian and Polish).

Also I can't believe you're equating this to a tiny criticism during a football tournament. Your theory that they are scrutinised because they are hosts is ludicrous, because maybe in football and the Olympics occasionally I have heard similar theories before, but no host country for handball has been criticised for this before. Also no other country has made what is meant to be an international competition resemble a club one, nor have they had so much international, widespread condemnation.

Your theory might have had any grounds if there was evidence that this was simply frustration out of loss - but clearly that is not the case, because many teams lost in the dying minutes, and certainly there have been contentious decisions in non-Qatar matches. However no-one felt any of the other matches were refereed unfairly or biased towards one side apart from Qatar, when everyone who didn't own a Qatari passport was completely gob-smacked. Also why would Croatian or Czech newspapers comment on the dodgy-ness of Qatar's "miraculous success"? After all if it really was sporting frustration, the Croatian's would have been overjoyed to see Poland lose, as they scraped past them dumping the Croatian's out, who were widely-tipped to be the winners. The Czech's had no contact with any of the above mentioned teams, Switzerland didn't even qualify and go to Qatar! Your assumptions are absolutely insane.

There's a damn good reason people are bringing this up, and trying to label off anyone criticising Qatar just because their hosts or a tin-foil hat-wearing conspiracy theory is just simply negating the fact that this has been the most controversial team and tournament in the history of handball.

Btw do you think the Qatar WC 2022 bid criticism is also a big conspiracy theory? Abcmaxx (talk) 22:42, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi, you should read my post again. I mentioned that there isn't a single source about match fixing in response to your previous post which stated: "but they would not accuse match-fixing if there was no substance to it". If a news article suspected or made reports of match fixing without any tangible evidence, then it would probably classify as unreliable. And once again, referee bias has not been proven in any way, shape or form. It would be sensible to note it as refereeing errors or make mention the news outlets or players which perceived this as bias (such as List of 2014 FIFA World Cup controversies).

For what is Qatar receiving international condemnation? For legally naturalizing athletes? Or is it because some shady Vietnamese tabloids reported that they bribed the referees? The answer is irrelevant because it is evident that the controversy section's main interest is to attack a single country. The only reason I have criticized the section is for its enormous disproportion of non-NPOV content. I don't mind a controversy (or more aptly named 'criticism') section as long as it is fair and doesn't distort the truth. Elspamo4 (talk) 17:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Shady Vietnamese tabloids? I just listed major national and international newspapers mentioning the dodgy refereeing from the Czech Rep. to the USA discussing this and either you have taken some serious illegal substances, the wrong medication or you are so far in denial that you just cannot admit that Qatar and the IHF has made enemies with the entirety of the handball world. Please re-read what I wrote - I wrote all those sources didn't outright accuse of match-fixing but merely debated why the the referees were (definite fact) so biased. In case you are still in heavy denial, here's a link to the match in question . It's in Spanish, so I cannot really say what the commentators are saying but I can bet you it's no different from the controversy section, also not sure how much handball you watch but the bias is very evident even to the untrained eye. Also I'm not sure why you think this is a Qatar-based witch-hunt, it's not because it's Qatar, it's because of what they did, the same way Dynamo Berlin will forever be branded as the team who bought trophies - and yes they are still in their trophy cabinet, and yes their fans still cannot see any wrongdoing, and yes the Stasi destroyed all physical evidence at the time, but the fact remains that they won unfairly, recruited players unfairly (once the entire Dresden team was stolen) even though it was technically legal at the time - they are still the most despised team in Germany. For legally naturalizing athletes? for finding a loophole and achieving through success simply through money, I would even dispute 'naturalising' because these players have absolutely no link to the country, they were lured in by the promise of benefits in cars and houses and very wealthy contracts, that's not really the definition of naturalising. The IHF is also heavily criticised for allowing Qatar to do this, so yes you're right, it's not all Qatar - but I really fail to see why are you trying to minimise or diminish the reality of what happened and how it was received. Abcmaxx (talk) 01:50, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

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