Talk:2016–2017 South Korean protests/Archive 1

Excessive citations
There are too many citations for one single line. I am moving them here for storage. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 15:17, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 20 November 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. The current title seems to be favored by WP:CONCISE. As noted by User:George Ho "there are no other notable protests in South Korea this year at the moment." EdJohnston (talk) 04:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

2016 South Korean protests → 2016 protests against Park Geun-hye in South Korea – This was renamed to the proposed title without discussion. I reverted it back to the present title and then am starting this discussion about renaming the article. If the proposed title is not well suitable, please do not hesitate to provide alternatives. George Ho (talk) 11:09, 20 November 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. JudgeRM   (talk to me)  03:23, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Survey

 * I Definely argee with the title change becase it tells what the protest is actually about. The current title makes it seem like there has been a string of protest not related to each otherCriticalThunder (talk) 16:16, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose This was the only significant protest in South Korea in 2016 which got international attention. I don't see a need to make the title more specific here. The present title satisfies WP:CONCISE and considering that the event is a politically charged event, the current title is a nice NPOV title. WP:IFITAINTBROKE applies. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 07:28, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree I agree that this protest is most significant issue in South Korea. But there are some other major protests in 2016, South Korea. So I think it shouldn't be confined to the title, 2016 South Koeran Protests. Furthermore, its title doesn't represent the protests' contents. --218.148.122.195 (talk) 02:22, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose per everything said above.  &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 12:36, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

 * CriticalThunder, there are no other notable protests in South Korea this year at the moment. How would the title change help readers search for this article? George Ho (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The Korean title would translate to "2016 Movement for the resignation of president Park Geun-hye". However, there is a discussion on the talk page to remove the "2016". --Christian140 (talk) 13:20, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * So, I think it should be changed more suitable title. How about the title, "Park Geun-hye Resignation Protests"? It is more close to original meaning, "박근혜 퇴진 운동". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.132.66.174 (talk) 09:43, 25 November 2016‎ (UTC)
 * To convey and simplify the meaning of the Korean title for an English translation, how about "Presidential Resignation Movement of Park Geun-Hye", or just "Resignation Movement of Park Geun-Hye"? There is no reason to differentiate the year, and when Park Geun-Hye is not president, the title will become outdated. Funibon (talk) 08:00, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
 * @Christian140, Funibon and CriticalThunder: How would your proposals help readers find the article that they are looking for? Will you read the WP:criteria before making a decision? What about the intro of WP:AT also? George Ho (talk) 06:13, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, this is English Wikipedia, not Korean Wikipedia. While Korean audience decide which Korean-language title is best for Korean readers, we English-speaking people must decide what is best for those communicating with English language. George Ho (talk) 06:15, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, wait. I'll say something about what the rule says: the criteria are goals, not rules. In other words, they are not absolute. One criterion can be disregarded, and one can triumph another. If that's not enough, here are WP:DESCRIPDIS, WP:POVTITLE, WP:CONCISE, WP:UE and WP:TITLEFORMAT, all of them shortcuts to sections of WP:AT. Not to mention the guidelines: the "use English" subpage and the "events" subpage. They can help. George Ho (talk) 06:23, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Another approbriate title would be Candlelight protest in South Korea since this is how the English language media calls it. --Christian140 (talk) 09:04, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Opinion Merge to Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 09:43, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I think "2016" is inappropriate inscription. This demonstration will not end until President Park retire. SCHong (talk) 10:34, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merge from Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This merge was just suggested by User:Fuzheado, through he hasn't started a discussion on talk yet. Let me help - I also concur those topics are virtually identical, and can be discussed in one article. Once merged, we should keep the other topic as redirect so Korean wiki interwiki links work. (If anyone here speaks Korean, they may want to suggest a merge at ko wiki too... wait, I just noticed ko:2016년 박근혜 대통령 퇴진 운동 already has a merge notice too). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:55, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Shall the article "Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye" be merged into "2016 South Korean protests"? --George Ho (talk) 01:13, 5 December 2016 (UTC) Yes It has the same context, and there is no need for two separate articles.  Adotchar | reply here 10:16, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Support merge.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:17, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Support merge The topic of the protest is identical - ousting Park. &mdash; regards, Revi 14:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Support merge into this article The content is the same and the current article title (2016 South Korean protests) is NPOV and factual. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 14:24, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Support merge; I agree that 2016 South Korean protests to merge into Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye. Because now Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye is main protest in South Korea. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 07:32, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Idh0854, I am proposing the other way around. Why preferring "nationwide action" over "2016 SK protests"? George Ho (talk) 23:28, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye of group Nation Emergency Action for Ousting of Park Geun-hye (박근혜정권 퇴진 비상국민행동; as a coalition of over 100 civil society organization, founded in November 12, 2016 (Korean)) lead the 2016 protests in South Korea (except declaration of the state of affairs of universities or protest in front of the embassy of South Korea). So I suggest 2016 South Korean protests to merge into Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 16:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You know that, Garam, Wikipedia is not a place of advocacy, don't you? Also, you can't use the title based on some Facebook webpage. You need secondary and tertiary sources to prove usage. --George Ho (talk) 18:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This facebook page is offical. But if you need other source, you also can search the news page., , etc. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 18:48, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Instead of Korean sources, Garam, how about the English-language ones per WP:UE and WP:NCUE? George Ho (talk) 18:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Sources are availables only in Korean language, because of this is matters in South Korea only. (English language isn't official language in South Korea.) And if English language media had comes this group's opening news conference (press release), maybe we can see the English language source. But I think English language media nobody comes here. So I don't find it. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 12:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Have you used Google and Bing, Garam? The "nationwide" thing is less common in English. George Ho (talk) 20:31, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The protest name Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye is literal translation of in Korean language, not official translation. So we don't find it in English language search of Google or others. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 09:51, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The group Emergency people's action for ousting of Park Geun-hye ( in Korean language) is known by various names at English language news., , , , . Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 12:56, 10 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Support merge Too many article for the subject. --Nouill (talk) 09:22, 9 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment Now that she's been impeached, it may make sense to convert one of the article into the impeachment process. Costatitanica (talk) 18:17, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You mean impeachment of Park Geun-hye, Costatitanica? Pinging Garam, Adotchar, Revi, Lemongirl942, and Nouill for this alternative suggestion. George Ho (talk) 18:59, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. Sorry for the dealayed response. Costatitanica (talk) 19:37, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I had a look at all 3 articles right now: Impeachment of Park Geun-hye, Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye and 2016 South Korean protests. Based on content, I still think merging Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye into 2016 South Korean protests is a better and less messy solution. The article about the impeachment can stay where it is. And it already has content. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 19:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)


 * @Lemongirl942, Costatitanica, Idh0854, -revi, Adotchar, and Nouill: For an update, I merged the "Nationwide" article into this article and left out less important information. There is some content at if you believe that more should be preserved. Nevertheless, the discussion continues. George Ho (talk) 20:56, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? Now you ignore me and you tagging me. I clearly said, I agree that 2016 South Korean protests to merge into Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye. But why do you ignore my opinion? I don't understand. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 17:34, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The whole consensus, i.e. majority, agrees the original merger proposal. (Re-)Read the comments from others. This is George Ho actually (Talk) 18:58, 17 December 2016 (UTC) Pinging Garam. 18:59, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? Read the Consensus again. In Wikipedia, consensus isn't mean "majority". Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 08:59, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Garam, you reverted the page, but there wasn't a need to revert it per WP:PAG, which says use common sense. I can mention WP:Wikilawyering, but I can't use it to insult you or something. Can you please change it back to what it was before? We can still continue talking with the page merged. George Ho (talk) 09:10, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I think, if we finish the discussion by Consensus later, you won't have to worry about it. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 09:20, 18 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Titling the article
Garam, if you are keen on renaming the article, here are and WP:be careful. By the way, I want to move some of our posts to this thread. Allow me? --George Ho (talk) 16:41, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? I don't understand this opinion well. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 08:46, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll rephrase, Garam: the discussion between us over there is becoming less about the merger and more about the titling. We should make the long dialogue of responses separate from the merger proposal talk. --George Ho (talk) 08:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, I figured you wanted a retitling after the merger discussion is over, right? George Ho (talk) 08:50, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
 * First, I think the merger of this article is necessary. But I don't want a retilting. Because if this article's merged into Nationwide action for ousting of Park Geun-hye (as official name) is over, I don't think I need a retitling discussion. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 08:02, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Now that you disagree with the merger into "2016 South Korean protests", Garam, can you do another title discussion and propose a name or something? -- This is George Ho actually (Talk) 19:02, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, you are create this topic for it, isn't it? But you pressed on with merge of article, for no particular reason. You only said me, "The whole consensus, i.e. majority", although "majority" isn't the consensus of English Wikipeida. In this situation, how can I start a new discussion? Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 09:31, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You can surf to WP:RM, but let's hold off the renaming suggestion until the merger discussion is closed. Shall we? --George Ho (talk) 09:45, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Idh0854, the other article is merged into this article per consensus, now recently closed. Can you abide to the consensus, or what shall you do? George Ho (talk) 23:36, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Now I want to move the article name as you said. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 04:02, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You can start a requested move on this talk page. See the instructions at WP:RM for how to do it. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:29, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I already know how to do. But I didn't mean it like that. Well, I don't want it to be for naught (like "No consensus") on the grounds of indifference or others (like "no need more movement"). Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 07:55, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Statistics of protests in infobox
@Blackspider2014, Idh0854, and Lemongirl942: The statistics of individual protest events are too much for readers and editors to bear, though I reformatted the list in the infobox. The infobox may need some cleanup per MOS:INFOBOX. Also, some portions not in body should be moved from the infobox into the body. --George Ho (talk) 07:16, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree it is way too much. But I think given the rapidly changing event, it is pointless to format. For the moment, I am just letting it be. Once the dust settle, I will try to reformat. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 07:24, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Renaming "Protesters" and changing names of political parties in infobox
Garam, I don't understand the changes: Can you explain? --George Ho (talk) 08:41, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Protesters → Nationwide (whatever it is)
 * New Conservative Party for Reform and Anti-Park faction of the Saenuri Party → Doro-Chiba (Japanese stuff actually)
 * The group name is "National Emergency Action for the Ousting of President Park Geun-hye", include Minjung General Uprising, Korean Confederation of Trade Unions, and People’s Solidarity for Participatory Democracy etc. This group was always prepared for demonstrations about anti-goverment movement in South Korea, during 2015-16. So I changed the name of that part.
 * The group New Conservative Party for Reform (and "Anti-Park faction") never participates in demonstrations as the group.
 * For Doro-chiba, see the (in japanese) and  (in Korean).
 * Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 08:54, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Is the Doro-chiba the Japanese trade union, or what is that "Doro-Chiba" you were refer to, Garam? Shall I ping you next time, or will you watchlist this page? George Ho (talk) 08:58, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, can you add the "Doro-Chiba" thing in prose? Per MOS:INFOBOX, infoboxes should not be used to replace prose but to summarize key facts. --George Ho (talk) 09:00, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? I don't understand it. And did you read the that links? According to that links, DoroChiba, and affiliates group of DoroChiba (as railways union in Japan), also participated in this demonstrations in solidarity with KCTU. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 09:20, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I must apologize; I don't read Korean or Japanese. Forgive me for... misunderstanding, or how do you call it? George Ho (talk) 09:24, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I must apologize; I don't read Korean or Japanese. Forgive me for... misunderstanding, or how do you call it? George Ho (talk) 09:24, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 18 February 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a clear consensus against renaming this article, and a rough consensus in favour of merging the counter-protests back into this article. Jenks24 (talk) 06:02, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

2016–2017 South Korean protests → 2016–2017 protests against Park Geun-hye in South Korea – Since the protests of the South Korean conservatives, those who are against the impeachment, have grown substantially,   the title should be moved for differentiation. They also started their protests in 2016. Cyberdoomslayer (talk) 03:35, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Even, Please made the new article namely 2016-2017 South Korean Anti-Impeachment protests and rename this article to Park Geun-hye Resignation Movement becaused the pro-Park protests also held in 2016. Hanafi112 (talk) 10:09, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Object. Or perhaps this article should discuss protests and counter-protests. I am not sure if we need to disambiguate this. Also, the major protests are the ones against the president, anything else is still small fry compared to that. The primary meaning of "2016–2017 South Korean protests" is "2016–2017 protests against Park Geun-hye in South Korea". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 15:05, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The pro-president protests have grown substantially, attracting hundreds of thousands of people. Some even claim that the number reached over a million. I created a separate page about the protests with sufficient citations. I would like you to look at the article and reconsider the renaming issue. --Cyberdoomslayer (talk) 14:44, 25 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The counter-protests can be covered in a small section of this same article, as they're part of the same phenomenon. Other than that, nothign has changed since the last RM. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 15:08, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * It has grown too large to be covered in a small section in this page. Since I created a separate page, the renaming of this page would be necessary. --Cyberdoomslayer (talk) 14:47, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

They are two distinct protests of large scales. It would be awkward to merge the articles of anti-Trump protests and pro-Trump rallies into a single page. I think the same applies here. --Cyberdoomslayer (talk) 03:36, 26 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose The current amount of content can easily fit into one article and I don't see the need for a split actually. It also helps to cover both in the same article. I am also opposed to a separate article about the counter protests - we have usually covered counter protests in the same article, unless it is absolutely necessary. At present the article size is fine and any information should be added here. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:03, 26 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Note This article is currently 30kb and the 2016–17 protests against the impeachment of Park Geun-hye is 7kb. This is actually quite less. There isn't really a need for a split. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:06, 26 February 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.