Talk:2017–2018 Iranian protests/Archive 4

Still ongoing?
I modified the dates to a 'From date, with no 'To' date (since it isn't clear when/if this is over). 'Ongoing' was restored. How long can we continue to treat these as 'ongoing protests'? Pincrete (talk) 10:13, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It seems that on the ground protests in Iran are for the most part over (e.g. ). There are on-going issues regarding detainees who are being held, torture , and outside solidarity (e.g. ).Icewhiz (talk) 10:22, 23 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree that not everything is 'resolved', but that is not quite the same meaning as 'protests ongoing'. Pincrete (talk) 11:00, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * There are many other incidents with unresolved issues which does not mean they are ongoing. Innocents such as September 11 attacks have still new things on after years. I restored the date to Pincrete's version but we should decide on the finish date. -- M h hossein   talk 18:58, 23 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't think an exact 'finish' is clear yet. We could put a general date like "mid-January" ... or leave blank. Pincrete (talk) 21:00, 23 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Pincrete: Yeah it is still going kinda. There were protests in Ahvaz yesterday, and in Tehran the 21th etc. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:58, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Can we have an update?ZiaLater ( talk ) 21:53, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
 * No ongoing coverage, but no official 'end date'. Pincrete (talk) 22:16, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

There are protests ongoing in Khuzstan and Isfahan province now https://twitter.com/MAZANDARA/status/979633696599834624 https://twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/979329832864624640 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.170.189 (talk) 09:04, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Isfahan and Khuzestan Protests in MArch and April
Should we not also mention the protests going on in Khuzestan by the Arabs over racism and farmers in Isfahan over lack of pay and water? WHile you could argue that the Arabic ones are unrelated to the ones in this article I don't see how the Isfahan ones are not. Since they are mostly ecomonic based and by the Dari-speaking people who largely protested in January. https://twitter.com/IranNewsUpdate1/status/983311148912136194 (Isfahan protests from today 9/4/18) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.189.153 (talk) 13:00, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Sexism
The ayatollahs' love affair with sexism is undeniable.--180.180.130.67 (talk) 12:39, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * IP, you don't understand, it is not a question of whether Iran is sexist or not (most of us would probably agree with you), it is whether sources covering the protests actually describe 'sexism' as a major cause of these protests. AFAIK they don't. Pincrete (talk) 12:46, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Ahmadinejad's arrest or not
Re this in 7th January:

According to a report in Al-Quds Al-Arabi, former president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad may have been arrested in Iran and kept under house arrest with the approval of Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, for "inciting violence", after he criticized the current government of Iran during the protests.

The sourcing is not the greatest (also has NY Post quoting A-Q A-A as well as JP above), and surely the arrest would either have been confirmed/disproven by now. Should the text go or be rephrased to reflect that there was no later confirmation? Pincrete (talk) 21:53, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Balance in photos
GTVM92: you tend to remove the photos used for the sake of neutrality. It's even worse you fail to say why those photos should be removed. -- M h hossein   talk 12:40, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Again I'm not going to take sides, but some of the 'property' photos are crap - a burnt out motorbike looks pretty much the same whether it spontaneously combusts, or is damaged in a riot - it isn't very informative. Pincrete (talk) 13:02, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the insight, but I'm objecting the very act of complete removal. There are certainly more "informative" photos. -- M h hossein   talk 13:15, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Who is this guy ? He seems to be dragging the protesters' rage here to this page! lol! I restored photos of pro-government rallies, but he restored them without any explanation! If he doesn't respond to talk page pings, we may need to report him for his disruptive behavior. --Expectant of Light (talk) 13:21, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * He received a warning some months ago. -- M h hossein   talk 13:24, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * It is clear as daylight that both Mhhossein is a avid supporter of the Islamic Republic, and that he is trying to push his non-neutral POV on this article in order to villainize the protesters (which he has failed to do). Anyone who goes against his POV, will have their edit changed or removed completely. Mhossein is not in a position to talk about neutrality, when he is far from it. More neutral users such as Pincrete should keep a watch over this article. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:49, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * With regards to your accusations here, I must say I support the legitimate grievances of the protestors as per IRI Constitution. The constitution says that the government is responsible for guaranteeing economic well-being of Iranian people and guarantee their freedom of speech within the framework of law. This makes me both pro-IRI and pro-protests because I don't view things in a binary light. I only have problem when protests are not conducted in a peaceful way or when they chant slogans against other articles of the constitution that have been a foundation of their own rights! As for this article though, I believe we have to include both foreign and IRI narratives for balance. For example, IRI state media report on an urgent waterline project aiming to solve Khuzistan drinking water shortage. This must be added to the page. --Expectant of Light (talk) 14:11, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Don't wanna turn this too political or into a forum-ish discussion, but how do you expect protests to be peaceful when the government doesn't respond in a peaceful way? --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:52, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know which party started the violence in this case so can't comment. But I think in general protests can be conducted much more peacefully than what we saw in December protests/riots and the Dervishs' street thuggery. In those cases police exerted a lot of restraint in the beginning and you know about police officers who were killed without anyone killed from the rioters. --Expectant of Light (talk) 14:58, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Well the dervish protests aren't the same as the general Iranian protests atm. The dervishes are a small minority after all with some followers. But I get what you're saying, and I do apologize for being too hasty when mentioning your name. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:01, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * GTVM92 is adding POV photos to the infobox and removes the damage photos. That makes the photos imbalanced. He communicate only via edit summary and doesn't comment here. -- M h hossein   talk 08:12, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The article has a separate section for the damages. Can you understand it and add your fake images there?! Why you remove the Bazaar's protests images from the inbox?! GTVM92 (talk) 05:03, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Can you understand that there was a consensus on talk right above to move June protest contents to a separate page? Do you understand that insisting on reverts against consensus will land you in ANI where you might be temporarily blocked for your restless disruptive editing? --Expectant of Light (talk) 11:09, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It seems pretty straight forward: images of damages should be in the "Damages" section. I agree with . Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 19:08, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

June protests
It is still very unclear as to whether there is any connection between the June protests and the winter ones. I suggest for now we should simply list the June ones (as at present) and look for some text to establish what the connection is (if any). I've altered the infobox text to something more tentative (removed first phase 2nd phase - which is pure OR), because a) it is still unclear whether the events are connected BY SOURCES b) it would be completely misleading to say Dec - present, even if June ones turn out to be linked. Pincrete (talk) 00:41, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Pincrete: I agree, we don't know if there were any connections. However, both stemmed from economical issues. Anyway, a disruptive editor insists on using "present" as the end date of the protests. -- M h hossein   talk 12:33, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to take sides on this - nobody at present is coming on to talk, but simply edit warring their own preferred version (it's a pain to watchers like me who don't have a "dog in this fight'). I think ongoing events are sufficiently linked to tentatively include for now, but we should avoid conclusions - especially in the infobox. I would suggest that "From June XX (further protests)", without either putting an end date, nor implying ongoing, would most accurately reflect what is presently known. Pincrete (talk) 12:52, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * My two cents - this article should be about the December-January protests (which lasted around 10+ days - the year straddle is due to this starting end of Dec). The June protests should be a separate article - they are a distinct event.Icewhiz (talk) 13:08, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * @Pincrete: That's not a matter of "preferred version". Some users tend to forge the protest as ongoing. -- M h hossein   talk 13:21, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Make separate pages for them. Let the protesters have two separate pages for online street combat :). --Expectant of Light (talk) 13:22, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * AFAI can see, we don't have RS connecting these to the winter protests AT ALL at present. Icewhiz is probably right here, or AT MOST tentative phrasing until the bigger picture becomes clearer. Pincrete (talk) 16:25, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * 28th june events are cited to payvand.com (which is clearly not a reliable source) and GTVM92 tends to restore them. -- M h hossein   talk 08:06, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Shall we act on the consensus to move the June content? Someone also needs to correct the links but I don't know the original sources. Instead of revert wars correct these non-working links. --Expectant of Light (talk) 10:51, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Wait, wait. Only three users decided for it?! And where is the new page?! What you erase contents before creating new page?! GTVM92 (talk) 19:22, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 4 users...Me, Pincrete, Icewhiz and Expectant of Light. You can create the article. -- M h hossein   talk 11:27, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Edit request
As you see the previous consensus on this talk is on keeping this page separate from other incidents unless there are reliable sources connecting them to this subject. This edit is certainly against the consensus. You'd be better check the TP before locking the article. Regards. -- M h hossein   talk 11:57, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Mhhossein - Ah, okay I see... I think I got my wires mixed up here. I'm removing the full protection I applied.  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   12:09, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Why separate pages?!
From December, Iran has faces protests. In all of them, protesters chanted against ruling regime! Why you insist to create different pages?! Maybe protests for water problems of Daravish protests be different, but December, June and now August protests are same. All protests has phases and it's not necessary to create different pages for all. For example, Venezuelan protests (2014–present), 2015–2018 Iraqi protests and also 2009 Iranian presidential election protests. 2009 protests was not continuous but we don't create different pages for it! GTVM92 (talk) 07:58, 3 August 2018 (UTC)


 * What is unclear is whether - and how much - the more recent protests and the earlier protests are a continuation of the same thing - or, more importantly, are treated by RS as being a rekindling of the same unrest. Pincrete (talk) 08:46, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * As an Iranian, I see the protests same. Same chants, same goals and same methods. Iran are face this aerosphere since December and the breaks between the protests are for security reasons. You can see it in the twitter. GTVM92 (talk) 05:49, 4 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I get why GTVM92 sees it like that, and it is indeed the same chants etc as in January, but we will have to wait to see how this undfolds further before we start adding the new protests on this article at least. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:54, 4 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I also understand GTFM92's point, despite my creating a separate article for the June 2018 Iranian protests. The recent August protests in Iran are starting to persuade me that these are part of the same issues/public dissatisfaction in Iran ("weak economy, strict Islamic rules, water shortages, religious disputes, local grievances"). I think that once we get more concrete RS identifying the common issues among these protests we could merge these articles. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 18:01, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
 * What we really need are sources. If we have most sources covering them jointly, then so do we.Icewhiz (talk) 18:22, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I endorse what Icewhiz says - unless sources treat this as a continuation/rekindling of the winter protests, we should not do so. Subjectively assessing whether these are a continuation of the same or similar grievances - is not a basis for inclusion. Also, the use of -present implies continuous protests since Dec, which is clearly not the case and therefore misleading.Pincrete (talk) 09:27, 5 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Some sources (I looked on purpose for Iran protests January in google news and then went over the results):
 * VOA - Anti-government protests by Iranians fed up with their nation's economic woes have spread to 10 major cities, posing the biggest challenge to Iran's Islamist rulers since January's nationwide demonstrations.
 * Independent - This week’s protests are among the largest to hit Iran since a wave of unrest erupted across more than 80 cities in December and January also over the country’s economic woes. At least 25 people were killed during that time and thousands were arrested.
 * Newseek - Some protests have taken place sporadically and some have been well-organized, some have been isolated and others spread to several cities near-simultaneously. December and January saw some of the largest protests occurring in around 80 cities all on the same day. During another spike in activity in June, demonstrations even reached Tehran’s Grand Bazaar, a national symbol of Iran and one of the focal points for the 1979 Islamic Revolution.
 * Seattle Times - The demonstrations began in January, when in more than 80 cities, including Tehran, people took to the streets with economic demands and calls for more freedoms. In total, 25 people were killed and more than 4,000 were arrested ... The protests in the ensuing months ...
 * So VOA and Independent mention the previous protests as previous events. Conversely, Newsweek and Seattle Times both treat events from December to now as one continuing wave. So RSes are split. Looking forward - my crystal ball says these will probably be covered jointly five years from now - however some might disagree with my crystal ball.Icewhiz (talk) 09:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with your crystal ball, but yes, we should consider merging the articles when there is more substantial RS available describing the protests as part of the same movement. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 15:33, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Now, what we should did for the recent protests?! Creating new article?! I think this is really ridiculous! There is NO DIFFERENT between the protests. Why Wikipedia did not do same for the other protests?! 2015–16 protests in Brazil and 2017–2018 Russian protests are other examples. In both, protesters was not in the street all days! It was also very pause between protests like in Iran. GTVM92 (talk) 16:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a very good source. See it: Across Iran’s heartland, from the sweltering heat of its southern cities to the bustling capital, protesters have taken to the streets with increasing intensity in "recent months", much to the satisfaction of the Trump administration, which is hoping the civil unrest will put pressure on Iranian leaders. GTVM92 (talk) 17:05, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * See it too, The rallies follow larger ones that started in December and flared up again in June, when protesters demonstrated outside parliament and shut down Tehran's Grand Bazaar. GTVM92 (talk) 17:06, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * So NYT and CBS are treating this jointly - yes - that makes a stronger case for joint treatment.Icewhiz (talk) 06:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting for the decision. I think it's not good that a current event has no place in Wikipedia! GTVM92 (talk) 11:38, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

More sources that are referring to the protests as part of the same movement/issue: Thoughts? Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 00:52, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * A riot at a religious school in Tehran is the latest in months of anti-government protests by Iranians nationwide. The protesters are angry at water shortages, power cuts and the worsening economy.Al Jazeera
 * This week’s protests are among the largest to hit Iran since a wave of unrest erupted across more than 80 cities in December and January also over the country’s economic woes. Independent
 * Iran has seen frequent nationwide street protests this year involving dozens to hundreds and occasionally thousands of people. Protesters have been venting anger toward local and national officials and business leaders they accuse of mismanagement, corruption and oppression. Voa News
 * The current protests follow unrest in December and January, when at least 25 people were killed in demonstrations that spread to dozens of towns and cities. Arab News
 * I'm really waiting for the decision. I can't understand why this events has no place in Wikipedia! If you thoughts it's part of same events, lets merge and extend the page. If not, lets create a new page (for 5th time!). GTVM92 (talk) 05:21, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Almost none of the sources you provided show the incidents are connected to each other. That A incident is followed by B does not mean A and B were connected. -- M h hossein   talk 10:53, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Wrong, they literally say that they are a continuation of the earlier protests and due to the same reasons. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Then provide just one source literally saying "they are a continuation of the earlier protests and due to the same reasons". -- M h hossein   talk 12:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not here to play these games. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:19, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * So, give it up and don't throw wrong comments. Of course you can come back with sources saying what you like. -- M h hossein   talk 12:27, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * What I want to do and don't is none of your concern, don't tell me what to do. As for my 'wrong comments', we already have several sources that clearly states that the protests are a continuation of the earlier ones. It seems like, however, that you are trying to dodge them. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:32, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Your refusal to say which of the above sources say "the protests are a continuation of the earlier ones" is not constructive. -- M h hossein   talk 13:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Your dodging/opposition of the above sources is not constructive. See? I can play that game as well. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:59, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * You've got an essentially wrong understanding of the consensus building here. Nearly always, editors who wish to include something or support something, have the onus to build consensus. So, it's a bad faith comment to describe my call to consensus building as "Game". -- M h hossein   talk 12:50, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh really? Isn't it bad faith as well to team up with an anti-semitic disruptive editor that posted walls of text filled with Khomeinist rhetoric that you never warned/reported once? Yet haven't you warned/reported everyone who doesn't agree with you due to the slighest reason? Furthermore, you're the only one in opposition of the poll.. curious . Anyways, this is going nowhere, there is already a poll down below which pretty much has made its decision. Regards. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:10, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Not the only one. Your disruptive behavior and personal attacks may buy you another block someday. Enough with this. -- M h hossein   talk 14:33, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * If I'm such a disruptive editor then I must be a damn good one with my 27,115 edits, 522 articles created, countless awards, and almost 6 years of service. Regards. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:45, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * As most of the comments are in favor of my opinion, I think we should start exporting the article. June 2018 Iranian protests also should be merge to this article. Can I started it? GTVM92 (talk) 11:59, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I recommend waiting until the poll below is formally closed by an uninvolved editor, after sufficient time has passed; There's no rush, really. Your efforts to communicate are noted and appreciated. Icarosaurvus (talk) 21:16, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Straw Poll
Gives the sources presented above treating the current August protests (as well as interim protests) as a continuation of Dec/Jan - should we combine? Please indicate Support or Oppose. Pinging participants: .Icewhiz (talk) 12:05, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support - per sources above treating the continuing protests as a continuing wave.Icewhiz (talk) 12:06, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support - Not much more to say really, other than the sources clearly agree that the new protests are a continuation of the earlier ones. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:08, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment and oppose: First of all. "polling is not a substitute for discussion". Secondly, no. I don't see the sources describing the recent developments as having relations to or being connected to the Winter incidents. The sources are mostly talking about the chronological orders of the incidents. i.e. Winter incident was followed by the newer ones. -- M h hossein   talk 12:20, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * See Polling is not a substitute for discussion. We had a discussion. Sources were provided for joint coverage of protests. It also seems to me, from the discussion, that we have consensus - this straw poll will allow us to evaluate the current consensus explicitly.Icewhiz (talk) 12:23, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * There had not been enough discussions on this. That's why this "Poll" is immature. -- M h hossein   talk 12:29, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Conditional support the only condition is that text should reflect that further protests took place in the summer and info box should reflect Dec-Jan, then June, August as 'further protests' or similar - ie not Dec-present which would misrepresent. It is still unclear how the later events are connected,but I don't object to inclusion here with care.Pincrete (talk) 14:08, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That would be fair enough, if we're writing about a wave of protests. Care should be taken to avoid connections not supported by the RSs. -- M h hossein   talk 12:46, 8 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Support - Pincrete raises a good point about being accurate with dates. Other than that, the events seem to derive from protests concerning the same issues (with some RS describing them as a continuation of protests earlier this year), so it makes more sense to have a single article about this rather than separate ones. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 14:28, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support Many of the sources are acting as though they are one event, so it seems best if they are covered as one event, if only to avoid two articles with heavy overlap. Icarosaurvus (talk) 18:24, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support As the person that request for the issue, it's clear that I support the changes. I'm also agree with Pincrete that in inbox we should add dates separate, just like 2015–16 protests in Brazil. GTVM92 (talk) 09:09, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I edited the inbox, but I'm waiting for decision to merge June 2018 Iranian protests to the article. GTVM92 (talk) 12:05, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I think we can likely get someone to assess consensus. It's been over a month. Icarosaurvus (talk) 17:56, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Given previous events on this page, I thought perhaps I'd ask you to assess consensus and close this discussion. While I feel it is rather straightforward, I also feel it best if all the i's are crossed and t's are dotted so to speak. Icarosaurvus (talk) 04:18, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * nb there hasn't been a merge from notice here, only merge to on the other article - therefore discussion hasn't attracted any attention. From my PoV, if - as likely - there is a decision to include later protests here, the other article becomes reduntant and would be reasonable to merge into this. Pincrete (talk) 09:52, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Aye, I see the merit of such a thing. No reason to have two nigh-identical articles, after all. Icarosaurvus (talk) 11:08, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Scare quote
Scare quotes "may indicate that the author is using someone else's term". "Staged", which is not actually quoted, needs to be removed per MOS:SCAREQUOTES. -- M h hossein   talk 16:42, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Stating "Staged" pro-government rallies continued in the following days is very different from stating Pro-government rallies continued in the following days. It has nothing to do with "scarequoting" as the source is trying to tell us that the demonstration was "Stage", which is very different from non-staged demonstrations. The title of the article is "Iran stages pro-government rallies, derides Trump 'blunder' at U.N.", so that tells us that the pro-government rallies were "staged" (this telling us that the rallies were fixed, and needs to be described as such). Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 21:50, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Supported by US in infobox ?
US politicians expressing vocal support for the aims of the protesters (retrospectively) - is not the same as the US giving tangible aid to protesters, which inclusion in the infobox under 'party to the civil conflict' implies. Pincrete (talk) 10:39, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Continuing into 2019?
I have just reverted a page move since it is unclear that the original protests continue into 2019.

I also question whether much of the late 2018 material is relevant/related. In any country at any time somebody is probably protesting about something - but not every protest in Iran automatically relates to the original anti-gov protests that the article is ostensibly about.

Thoughts? Pincrete (talk) 16:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC)