Talk:2017 London Bridge attack/Archive 1

Second attack at Borough Bistro
We now have a second incident at Borough Bristro in London, looks like we are seeing another situation similar to November 13, 2015 Paris attack where Terrorist hit several soft targets. --Boutitbenza 69 9 (talk) 22:27, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It's not yet confirmed as a terrorist attack, but given the two incidents it could well be. It may be worth waiting until a credible news outlet uses the word "Terrorist" -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 22:30, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * With this incident being in more than one location should we rename it? Thanks, WikiImprovment78 (talk) 22:31, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Please note that Borough Bistro and Borough Market are different. Both are being evacuated due to an incident. May have to rename this to focus on London as a whole. – Craig Davison (T ∙ C ∙ @) 22:32, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * As this is still an on-going incident and rapidly unfolding at a rate of knots, I personally feel it is too soon to speculate on links and similarities.  Wes Wolf Talk 22:34, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ^ this, and the fact that unless this gets confirmed as a terror attack, it may well not be notable enough to keep around -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 22:35, 3 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Until there is confirmation in reliable sources, I'd oppose a rename as we don't know yet if this is even an attack or related to the Market. CHRISSY MAD  ❯❯❯  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  22:35, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree but it depends Thanks, WikiImprovment78 (talk) 22:37, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * If the source of this is this metro.co.uk report, I think this could be over-interpreting a tweet. The tweet and the overall article are consistent with exiting a bar, seeing an injured bleeding person and either correctly or incorrectly believing that someone had a knife in his hand. It doesn't sound like a separate incident. Boud (talk) 22:38, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Vauxhall
Forth incident, what now. Should we rename. Thanks, WikiImprovment78 (talk) 22:49, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Its the third, not forth. And still too soon for renaming. It is already clear all this is unfolding at an alarming rate. Hold fire and be patient.  Wes Wolf Talk 22:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah. These are not necessarily linked yet so we'll just give it time. Thanks, WikiImprovment78 (talk) 23:00, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Third incident
BBC are now reporting of a third incident in Vauxhall. I can see this article getting rather messy with severe disruptive editing. When is best for semi-pp?  Wes Wolf Talk 22:49, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well there isn't any yet, so move on, to put it politely. Check policy. SP is ONLY for vandalism that can't be otherwise dealt with! It's not for preemption. 86.185.30.254 (talk) 22:53, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Is salting it until the incident(s) have fleshed out more and have RS and not ongoing an option?   I know it's not but I had to try...   CHRISSY MAD  ❯❯❯  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  22:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Trying not to, I prefer to err on the side of allowing editing than restricting it, but it's getting a little silly -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 22:52, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * There's been no problem with the editing so far, except for overzealous removal of material. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:54, 3 June 2017 (UTC).


 * No it is not getting silly. I get really pissed off when as soon as something like this comes along a load of control freaks come along to freeze out IPs for no good reason at all. 86.185.30.254 (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Chill, it's not being protected just yet -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 22:57, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Control freaks? And "move on"? No personal attacks, please! IPs have been warned from a couple of admins about attacking me lately.  Wes Wolf Talk 22:58, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but please don't SP this article unless IP vandalism becomes a real problem. 86.185.30.254 (talk) 23:00, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Until it becomes an issue, don't protect it. And it isn't that difficult to create an account if you're being constructive. You sound too experienced to be an ip. Thanks, WikiImprovment78 (talk) 23:02, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Correct, but I'm on my works computer, and I never log on from it (and I won't now edit this article at all while logged on). 86.185.30.254 (talk) 23:04, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We have a significant number of very experienced IP editors. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:06, 3 June 2017 (UTC).

correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the act of salting something mean the placing of creation protection level on an article? As this is already created, then I'm not suggesting salting whatsoever. All I'm saying is if this gets out of hand should we be looking into protection? This is likely to appear on the main page, so protection level will be required at some stage per WP:SEMI which strongly recommends when an article is subject to significant but temporary vandalism or disruption (for example, due to media attention) when blocking individual users is not a feasible option. This is high media attention.  Wes Wolf Talk 23:06, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I was joking because right now it's bound to be a hot mess of unsourced or unreliably sourced claims as the incident is unfolding and I was suggesting it would be better to have no article and no ability to create the article than to have a dumpster fire. CHRISSY MAD  ❯❯❯  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  23:08, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ah right, LOL. Shall I get the coffee pot on boil? Looks like this could be a long-haul night keeping watch on this article.  Wes Wolf Talk 23:10, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Map
can someone add a map of the 3 areas in London?Lihaas (talk) 23:05, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Here is Open Streetmap of the area. Couldn't get my head around the attribution requirements.  All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:11, 3 June 2017 (UTC).

Propose rapid straw poll move
Propose moving to London incidents of 3 June 2017:

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:53, 3 June 2017 (UTC).


 * No, the word order is wrong.Thanks, WikiImprovment78 (talk) 22:56, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now: as even the police have said they do not know if these incidents are linked, and are not treating them as such whilst they ar still investigating.  Wes Wolf Talk 22:56, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose, I'm with WikiImprovement on this one. I think it needs to flesh out more since we don't yet know if they're related, no matter how likely it is. CHRISSY MAD  ❯❯❯  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  22:57, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose wording above, but I do support an eventual move... perhaps better wording would be 3 June 2017 London attack —  Crumpled Fire   • contribs • 22:59, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose because of wording as well. June 2017 London attacks would be better.Walsak (talk) 23:02, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The detail of the wording I am not too fussed about, that can be resolved in due course. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:03, 3 June 2017 (UTC).

OK, let me explain my reasoning here. We do not know if the events are related, therefore having them in an article entitled "London Bridge incident" makes little sense. It may transpire that only the LB incident is significant, for example, in which case we can move back, but meanwhile it makes sense to have a title that covers all three incidents. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:02, 3 June 2017 (UTC).


 * Oppose for now: If they're found to be all linked later, then sure. For now, no. DanielEnnisTV   ✉  23:02, 3 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose for now as we don't yet have all the facts. Would support an eventual move to something like June 2017 London attacks. No need to disambiguate with the day date. This is Paul (talk) 23:04, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support. Many references now available for the multiple location aspect of this/these incidents. However, re-word slightly - 2017 London attacks or similar 86.185.30.254 (talk) 23:08, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Why has the article been moved anyway, by when this discussion is still ongoing?  Wes Wolf Talk 23:09, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I've also pinged them on their talk, . CHRISSY MAD  ❯❯❯  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  23:17, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Number of deaths
I understand the need to get the wording correctly, but we all need to agree on the correct way to phrase this. Should it be spelled out or using symbols? RES2773 (talk) 23:15, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Symbols? Do you mean numerals (1, 2, 3 etc) or lettering (one, two, three, etc)?  Wes Wolf Talk 23:18, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, or using greater than/less than. RES2773 (talk) 23:20, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I would suggest using words until we have some reasonably stable figure - without "at least" or "more than" in it. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:22, 3 June 2017 (UTC).

Declared terrorist attack
Per Met twitter https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/871152151787171840 -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 23:59, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * But not the Vauxhall one. https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/871152386739404800 158.174.11.112 (talk) 00:01, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

This is pretty recent
is ongoing, and might not warrant an article in the end. It's also not yet confirmed as a terrorist attack, so it'd be worth leaving that out for now -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 21:55, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed. There have been at least two recent incidents which turned out to be nothing to do with terrorism, and so far not even the Murdoch press have speculated about terrorism yet. Uncle Roy (talk) 22:01, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed, could be a mad hatter in a mass spree and not all of those are notable to have a page.Lihaas (talk) 22:10, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Besides, it could simply be another incident of workplace violence, you know. XavierItzm (talk) 00:03, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Categories
Someone keeps insisting on categorising this article as 'Bridge disasters' and 'Road incidents'. Come on! How stupid is that? 86.185.30.254 (talk) 22:49, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Very - so can we stop doing that please? -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 22:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Used to be called "terror attacks", but perhaps editors would prefer entitling these unpleasantnesses as "events"? XavierItzm (talk) 00:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2017
Add "A waitress was reportedly stabbed in the neck." Under "Borough Market". 32ciN (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ❌. Details like this should wait until they are confirmed - "reportedly" means that some unspecified person or organisation has said that but it hasn't been verified as correct. Thryduulf (talk) 00:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

"2017 London Bridge incident" redirect
2017 London Bridge incident has been redirected here. Should it remain or be changed to a disambiguation? Although this is the only to occur on the London Bridge, it is not the only on a London bridge. The first part of the 2017 Westminster attack was on Westminster Bridge, a London bridge. I realize that this distinction may be obvious to UK citizens, but I suspect that is not the case for most others. RN1970 (talk) 23:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't think that is necessary. Everyone knows about the London Bridge, and is hardly going to get confused with a bridge in London. Don't forget the worldwide known nursery rhyme, London Bridge is Falling Down.  Wes Wolf Talk 23:49, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. This is one of those weird cases where 2017 London bridge incident might be a dab, but 2017 London Bridge incident doesn't need to be. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:55, 3 June 2017 (UTC).


 * Thanks for both your comments. However, I really would appreciate some comments from people that are not UK natives. As I said in my earlier comment, I realize that the London Bridge/bridge distinction is obvious to UK citizens, but most en.wiki users belong to other nationalities. As a frequent London visitor, I'll also leave the final judgement on this redirect to others. RN1970 (talk) 00:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I would assume that distinguish might be a good solution, as that would bring up Not to be confused with. But as noted, everyone knows of London Bridge as it is a landmark and notable for being in a nursery rhyme. Also WP:COMMONTERM may apply.  Wes Wolf Talk 00:12, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Another good tip might be to add R from more specific geographic name to the redirect itself.  Wes Wolf Talk 00:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * American here. Never been outside the country.  I understand the difference between "London bridge" (a common noun with an adjective) and "London Bridge" (a proper noun), and I suspect most other Americans that have at least been through elementary school (If I'm not mistaken, it's what you guys would call "primary school".) will understand the distinction as well.  —   Gestrid  ( talk ) 00:21, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry if it was unclear from my posts, but the question wasn't if people know the difference between a common noun with an adjective and a proper noun. I certainly presume most do, regardless of nationality. However, most people searching on wiki (or google, etc) are lazy with caps. "Donald Trump" becomes "donald trump". Similarly, "2017 London Bridge incident" becomes "2017 london bridge incident". When only the version with caps exists, it'll redirect you. Regardless of your use of caps. The same will happen to anyone putting "2017 London bridge incident" into the search bar. You'll be redirected via "2017 London Bridge incident". RN1970 (talk) 00:41, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * On a slightly different note, 2017 London attack/2017 London attacks ought to be a disambiguation page now. The first has been created, so I'll redirect the second. This is Paul (talk) 00:26, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable in my eyes.  Wes Wolf Talk 00:32, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Mike Pence and other reactions
I've twice removed, and user:MrX has removed at least once, mention of Mike Pence from the reaction section (added I think only by user:Lihaas). MrX described it as "Trivia". My rationale is that Pence is not an international leader, is not relevant to the UK and has not said anything significant at all so it does not add anything to a section that is likely to become extremely bloated with meaningless, formulaic quotes as more people react. Thryduulf (talk) 00:34, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Sagecandor (talk) 00:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * strangely enough, had removed the same content as quoting non-notable indivicduals, only to reinstate it 5 minutes later as being notable. Both summaries got me all confused!  Wes Wolf  Talk 00:40, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That user is being very disruptive at this page. Sagecandor (talk) 00:41, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Of course I agree. Such platitudes should remain out, or be relegated to the inevitable reactions and flags article.- MrX 00:42, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I've just removed it, and the US flag template, again. Added this time by user:PerfectlyIrrational. Thryduulf (talk) 00:44, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with you . And still making disruptive reverts too. The user is showing signs of edit warring, and I'm dubious of them wandering into WP:3RR territory.  Wes Wolf Talk 00:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * someone ELSE added the latest addition. In fact, I further removed non-notable stuff.Lihaas (talk) 00:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

And now user:DHeyward has just added the Pence quote back. I've not removed it as I don't want to go over the 3RR. Thryduulf (talk) 00:46, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We have a consensus on the talk page for NOT having this on the page. Sagecandor (talk) 00:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you want to replace it with a note to not re-add without discussing it here? Thryduulf (talk) 00:49, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * x 4 (I hate edit conflicts lol). I think it is exempt per WP:3RRBLP, as it would appear to fall under biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material.  Wes Wolf  Talk 00:49, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I've added a note not to add Mike Pence's reaction per talk page consensus. I don't know what good it will do, but we can try. I've also replaced Trudeau's quote with the start of a list of international leaders who have reacted. Unless they say something different to the standard formulatic sympathies, etc. we don't need the quotes here. Thryduulf (talk) 00:55, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I only changed a long string of words to "offered" as a copy edit. Same as I did for Trump. I could care less if it goes or stays and there are a number of busybody numbskills worried about whether the VP of the US is notable. Who cares? --DHeyward (talk) 01:00, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't care what your motivations are, your edit summaries on the talk page and above are personal attacks. If you persist you will be blocked. Thryduulf (talk) 01:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

- Is this WP:NPA reportable somewhere? Sagecandor (talk) 01:00, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I refer all busybody numbskulls to ANI. They are used to them and there is much fucking off on that page.  --DHeyward (talk) 01:14, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Would the use of Consensus on this talk page and list any consensuses be helpful?  Wes Wolf Talk 01:01, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe, it's not a template I've encountered before so I don't know how effective it is in practice. If you think it will help then I've got no objections. Thryduulf (talk) 01:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * it is one that I've seen on the talk page of the Manchester attack. And it seems to be working very well on that, so maybe worth a go on here!?  Wes Wolf Talk 01:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Go for it then. Thryduulf (talk) 01:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I added it. It works well in my experience. TompaDompa (talk) 01:14, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Already done by . Nice swift action there, TD!  Wes Wolf Talk 01:15, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Map (2)
Could someone please create a map to show the proximity of the two sites? Thank, Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 00:56, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * already done from what I gather, see above.  Wes Wolf Talk 00:58, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * No it hasn't been done. I've found File:Southwark London UK location map.svg, if anyone knows how to put pins on it. Its the smallest local map I can find. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 01:16, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This is the best I can do. Should they be added to the page? Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 01:21, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

"Islamic terrorism"/Witnesses
Thre is no official corroboration of an invstigation into the backgrounds of the perpetrators and/or their motivation. Further, the views of a witness somewhere about is not notable enough to be here. Else we ought to add all the individual analysis on the web too with people who have more credentials. This s not a newspaper.Lihaas (talk) 00:48, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Which is why if you actually took the time to read edit histories, rather than rush-edit, you will have seen why the template has been hidden. Somebody has clearly added this article to the navigation template. And I did state in my edit summary that it is probably best left hidden for now, and subject to becoming visible should details verify otherwise.  Wes Wolf  Talk 00:52, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia articles are based on what WP:RS report, not on some "official corroboration of an invstigation". Your position is untenable.  XavierItzm (talk) 00:58, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * to whom is that comment being directed at? Please specify.  Wes Wolf Talk 01:03, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Yeah, heed the Muslim person above: the attacks weren't actually Islam-related. Who's ever heard of such a thing as Islamic terrorism? They were clearly carried out by either Lutheran Finns or Japanese Shintoists. --79.56.15.171 (talk) 01:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I sincerely hope there is no act of WP:SCRUTINY of another user, by that IP comment which bears similarities to the original post.  Wes Wolf Talk 01:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello Wesley. The article is directed to the person who wrote "official corroboration of an invstigation", i.e., Lihas. XavierItzm (talk) 01:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ah right, I can see that now, yes. Thank you for clarifying that comment further. I smell a dodgy scrutiny going on though. The good old sock and scrutiny snout is working well as 2:12am - LOL.  Wes Wolf Talk 01:12, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not a sock puppet. I'm a real person. Chill and hunt down those evil Finns. ;) --79.56.15.171 (talk) 01:14, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * For an IP who has made 3 sole edits in the last 10 minutes, you seem to be well educated on the sock-puppet term. Talk about quacking scrutiny.  Wes Wolf Talk 01:17, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah yeah sure, whatever, mate. I really don't care about all your rules and the collapsable Off-topic box censorship trick, I'm off to bed. Keep being slaughtered by Muslims and denying they're Muslims if that's what you want, okay? Peace. --79.56.15.171 (talk) 01:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

For your information, I never collapsed the content.  Wes Wolf Talk 01:40, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the collapsable Off-topic discussion box I'm currently writing in. --79.56.15.171 (talk) 01:43, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And like I said, I never placed yours or my comments into this collapsable Off-topic discussion box, nor did I "censor" anything. Check the edit history "mate", someone else censored.  Wes Wolf Talk 01:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * We clearly have eyewitnesses who were attacked by the jihadists corroborating the story. If eyewitness reports aren't good enough for you, I don't know what to tell you. CitationKneaded (talk) 03:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

This should be in Wikipedia front page
I'm watching news in Australia and thus event is being called out as a terrorist attack, with dead and wounded. Notable enough to be in Wikipedia's front page. Why is in not yet there? Regards, DPdH (talk) 03:26, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * My thoughts exactly. And with it being well-established that the attackers shouted "Allah!" during their rampage, why was it not listed under "Islamic Terrorism"? Leaving out that blindingly obvious fact reeks suspiciously of a blatant bias to whitewash the attack of crucial religious & cultural context.CitationKneaded (talk) 03:38, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * it currently is pending at Portal:Current events/2017 June 4 and also at Portal:Current events/2017 June 3 and will most likely appear on the next cycle (whenever the bot does its update).  Wes Wolf Talk 03:57, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, the article was quickly nominated here, but is was closed because there wasn't enough detail at that time. I think we have enough now, so it could be worth re-opening. FallingGravity 04:26, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * it already is in the ITN part as "ongoing", which the two links I provided above are located.  Wes Wolf Talk 04:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

All the Islamic apologists can stop with the obligatory cries of "oh, but we don't know for sure if it was" apologia already, it's getting old, you're not helping
We have multiple eyewitness accounts confirming that the attackers shouted "Allah" during the terrorist attack. If that's not good enough for you, nothing ever will be. CitationKneaded (talk) 04:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty certain YouTube cannot be used to cite content, per WP:YOUTUBE. And please remain WP:CIVIL at all times. Calling people "Islamophiles" is inappropriate and may lead to a WP:BLOCK.  Wes Wolf Talk 04:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * 1st. I was mostly citing BBC, don't whine just b/c the links themselves led to youtube (srsly?). 2nd, you do know to indent your entry when posting after someone else, don't you?
 * Firstly, don't be telling me about whining. I am the one talking calmly and with civility. Pity the same cannot be said about yourself. Secondly, don't get patronising about indentation of comments. I have been a user for almost 6 years, and I am fully aware of indenting. Your actions are coming across as disruptive. Your comments are very pointy. And thirdly, have you forgotten about your ArbCom sanction? At least I have some level of intelligence to do a background check on your behaviour.  Wes Wolf Talk 04:23, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * And finally, WP:NOT is explicit in not reporting first-hand accounts, of which those "eyewitness" videos are first-hand hearsay.  Wes Wolf Talk 04:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * @Wes Wolf Oh heeere we go w/ the tone-policing, the seniority pissing-contest, the condescension, and finally, the stalking. For that last one, you can kindly not interact with me again on here or you will be reported, this is your first and final warning.
 * At least get my name correct, . It is Wesley Wolf. And nobody is tone-policing, I am merely reminding you to maintain a level of civility. And feel free to report - here's the link WP:ANI. Be ready to catch a WP:BOOMERANG though. Wikipedia is a free place to edit, and this is a talk page to discuss an article. I am of free-will to post a comment on here if I so wish. You cannot WP:SILENCE people.  Wes Wolf Talk 04:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Motive
It's established beyond a reasonable doubt by multiple eyewitness accounts that the attackers shouted "for Allah" during the terrorist attack. Therefore the motive was pretty obviously Islamic Terrorism, and unless any new information surfaces to challenge those conclusions, any changing of the "motive" entry on the article page should be considered vandalism. We have a motive established, the attackers made it very clear who they were killing those people for. Erasing it here accomplishes nothing helpful & exposes an obvious bias to cover up the truth.


 * Can't we just wait until we know more about the attackers? I'm sure we'll get an in-depth investigation into their identities and past lives soon. Seriously, there's no rush. FallingGravity 04:23, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Do we really need to know their whole life story to know that they murdered innocent people "for Allah"? That's what they were shouting during the attack - one would have to be either daft or purposefully obstructing the truth to not get something that obvious. They told us their motives.CitationKneaded (talk) 04:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Seriously, you need to quit this behaviour of yours. Disrupting in order to illustrate a point is not going to gain you any favours around here. There are policies in place that we are suppose to be adhering in order to comply with Wikipedia. An eyewitness account is first-hand news, and cannot be used whatsoever. It could easily be said that you are posting these comments because "Allah told you to do so", but that would not make it factually correct without actual evidence to back up such claims. The eyewitnesses (and I'm not saying they did or didn't hear what was said), but they could be making extortionate accounts, as all of the media have said that everything happened so rapidly that even eyewitness accounts are blurred. So please, be patient and wait. Allow the dust to settle first!  Wes Wolf Talk 04:42, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I have a strong desire to close this thread. It's unhelpful, uncivil, disruptive and potentially insulting. Callmemirela  🍁  &#123;Talk&#125;   &#9809;  04:53, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * You have gained my support on that decision, . I'm finding some of the remarks to be somewhat distasteful and vile to be honest.  Wes Wolf Talk 04:55, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * @Wesley Wolf "Seriously, you need to quit this behaviour of yours." I had just asked you to please cease & desist from any further interaction with me due to your above behavior, did I not? Why are you continuing to harass me after I had specifically told you not to talk to me? Do you have trouble understanding simple requests to stop harassing people?CitationKneaded (talk) 05:02, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

To include Ariana Grande's tweet?
Outside of politicians, she is the first to express condolence -- and it comes just after her concert got bombed. Is it significant enough to include? Kingsif (talk) 01:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Don't see why not, on a separate "reactions" page to be used as dustbin for all the virtue-signaling to pour out of politicians and performers. XavierItzm (talk) 01:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * No. I think the article should focus on what happened and meaningful commentary from UK government officials, terrorisms experts, etc.
 * I say no. Trivial really. -- Amaryllis Gardener  talk 02:30, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We don't generally include celebrity reactions to these kinds of incidents unless there is a direct connection which doesn't appear to be the case here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:42, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think that Grande's tweet is necessary or significant enough for the reasons that other editors have given. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 03:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Eh... normally I am inclined to say not to include it however due to the circumstances where this closely follows the Manchester attacks and her benefits concert is today in my opinion I would include it.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  10:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Selective Trump Tweets
I object to the removal of President Trump's tweet about the Muslim Travel ban, which sources clearly show is the most noteworthy reaction from him in response to this tragedy. removed it (twice), the second time with an edit summary "Removed political bias". Is this to suggest that we can only quote Trump when it's completely innocuous?- MrX 02:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The section is about reactions to the incident not about an executive political order. This tweet just adds WP:UNDUE weight, why does America have to be the dominant English country with the most detailed response to the attack? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:41, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It doesn't. It sound like you advocate listing his name next to Turnbull, Trudeau, Macron and Kenny, without quoting his Tweets?- MrX 02:53, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I feel we should just quote his tweet in reaction to the attack or yes remove it, if you want to make a worldwide political reaction section then go ahead. I am sure this having a ripple effect on the upcoming election in the UK as well. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:57, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Please make up your mind. Either we quote his first tweet and his second tweet, or none. None makes more sense since that is what we have done for other major UK allies.- MrX 03:00, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I am fine with none then. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:01, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Trump's travel ban is a US domestic issue. It's not related to this in any way. Keep in mind that relevancy is also what keeps out responses such as "Islamist terror" or "Al-Qaeda" or "ISIL" before it is known. Arguing that the "muslim ban" is a relevant tweet means that "islamic terrorism" is a relevant tweet. We should be consistent and respectful of being neutral. --DHeyward (talk) 03:04, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing it; the sources are and so is Trump! His first public communication after learning of this attack was to renew his call for a Muslim ban. Even Fox News points that out in large bold font. But that's OK, let's leave his tweets out altogether and just say that he reacted along with other world leaders.- MrX 03:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * @OP You know by now it's not a "Muslim ban", right? It's a travel restriction on 7 countries known for producing terrorists. If it was, as clueless critics claim a "Muslim ban", then why are there no SE Asian nations (the most populous Muslim-majority nations in the world) on the list? Please refrain from embarrassing yourself by commenting on things you have clearly not taken the time or effort to educate yourself on, thank you.CitationKneaded (talk) 03:44, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The majority of attacks in US have been by people from countries not on the list (Saudi Arabia? UK? US itself). What the 7 countries most have in common is that neither US industry, nor specifically its president have substantial commercial interest in them. Banning Saudis or Brits would be too expensive and difficult, so hey, let's just pretend this is going to work. Pincrete (talk) 11:35, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Dubious material
The "this is for Allah" allegation has no basis and can be harmful to Muslims. The first mention appeared to be some fake news site like Daily Caller, who said that the witness told it to BBC. But the allegation doesn't appear to be anywhere BBC. "Reliable" sources like Telegraph only picked up on it hours after the fake news sites did (and even then it's just an allegation and innocent until proven guilty) which is more than enough time to copy fake info and mistake it for real news. Unless someone can point to me where BBC mentions this it should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.15.14 (talk) 03:43, 4 June 2017


 * I'd hardly call the BBC "reliable" after they report that the Middle East is one of the lowest-rate places in the world for modern-day slavery. And if your first concern after an Islamist terrorist attack is "oh no, this will be bad press for Muslims" instead of for the innocent people killed & injured, then you're part of the problem. Wikipedia is meant to be a neutral platform - please refrain from using it as a soapbox for ideological apologia.CitationKneaded (talk) 03:48, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * We clearly have eyewitnesses who were attacked by the jihadists corroborating the story. If eyewitness reports aren't good enough for you, I don't know what to tell you. CitationKneaded (talk) 03:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)CitationKneaded (talk) 03:51, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * We have eyewitnesses. And it's nothing new that Islam, sadly, teaches people to kill. No one has ever blamed all Muslims for what some Muslims do. We are only talking about a social construct called Islam. --Rævhuld (talk) 12:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * There, and now we do have it from BBC.   Is that finally good enough for the obligatory parade of Islam-apologists that come up after every Islamist attack? Can we get back to calling it what it is? CitationKneaded (talk) 04:02, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * What does this have to do anything with "Islamic apologist"? The article are based here on facts. If you don't like it, then take it someplace else. Don't start blaming others for something you don't like. Whether or not this is Islamic terrorism, will emerge. In 2014, BBC reported three Muslim-majority countries in 3 out of top 5 in terms of modern-day slavery in terms of proportion to population. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-30080578) Hiding it is meaningless anyway. Once you find reliable sources for a notable detail, nothing is stopping you from adding it. However this isn't a place for politics or religious discussion. 117.207.146.186 (talk) 07:33, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Edit request
Ironically, can't remove vandelism. Someone who can edit, I'm confident COBRA has no bearing on the attack, and the reference does not mention COBRA. Statement to be removed, "An emergency COBRA meeting was held on the morning of 4 June.[5]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.25.161.218 (talk) 12:02, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * There isn't any vandalism in the article in response to the attack an emergency COBRA meeting was held and it is in the news plus the source provided in the article.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  12:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It is WP:NOTE and is covered in WP:RELIABLE sources. --Rævhuld (talk) 12:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This is not in the scope of WP:VANDAL.--Rævhuld (talk) 12:32, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Title should be changed to singular: 2017 London Bridge Terror Attack
Guys, this was only one attack, in two stages. Same perpetrators, they just got out of their microbus and started the stabbing. Calling it the "London Bridge" Terror Attack would be more easily identifiable than just "London" attacks, because the city has routinely undergone islamist attacks since 2005. XavierItzm (talk) 05:49, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * For starters, the attack(s) extended beyond London Bridge, and the inclusion of "terror" is already opposed above. WWGB (talk) 06:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Must.  Avoid.  Descriptive.  Titles.  Let's call it the "2017 London Event", and be done with it.  XavierItzm (talk) 06:34, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Haha yeah I love that new title, . We could include Depeche Mode's Global Spirit Tour which was an event in London last night too. Sorry to have gone off tangent there, but that has lightened up the mood to be fair, after the close-to-home events of the past 2 weeks.  Wes Wolf Talk 06:43, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Or Maybe it's because usually "Terror Attack" isn't the type of title used. But then I wonder why bother with changing it to simply add Terror when it's already shown "London Attack". But yes we know you people thinking "neoliberal Wikipedia" and injecting what you think is correct per your political POV, otherwise it's "censorship" if the article isn't correct. Please. Try. To. Be. Patient. And. Follow. The. Rules. Instead. of. Complaining. 117.207.146.186 (talk) 07:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Nobody is complaining here, nor showing any signs of political POV. Think you'll find my comment to be a lighthearted banter in response to let's call it "2017 London Event" in order to restore some calm on the talk page.  Wes Wolf Talk 07:12, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree that the title could be improved by a more specific reference to the London Bridge rather than just London in a generic sense. And I do think this could and should be described as an attack (singular) rather than attacks.  The reason being, for anyone familiar with the area, 'London Bridge' can reasonably be used to describe the southern end of the bridge, where eg. the London Bridge station is, and not just the actual bridge itself.  And given that the attackers appear to have moved immediately from hitting pedestrians with their van (on the bridge) to stabbing bystanders etc. (in Borough Market), to me at least this constitutes a single incident, not separate 'attacks'.  For all those reasons, I think something like 'June 2017 London Bridge attack' would be more descriptive and arguably also more accurate than 'June 2017 London attacks'.DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:22, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * That's my view, at any rate, happy to be proven wrong.93.89.131.57 (talk) 07:25, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I was referring to Xavier as well as you're non-chalant way of dismissing him making fun of legitmate concern of others. And, I suggest that instead of poking fun that too without any reason and indicating bad faith assumption, I suggest you seek a consensus. If there is already a consensus, it's not like people are free to change it however they want. Why bother with talk page if you are going to poke fun while yourself making a bad faith assumption but hinting POV yourself. Please remain civil here. Discuss it, take reliable sources, conduct a consensus if needed. Simple as that and even I seem to understand that despite not knowing much. You don't need anything else. 117.207.146.186 (talk) 07:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I've repaired the link error you created, so that it doesn't post my entire user page onto this talk page. Also I wasn't being nonchalant or dismissive. As I said, I was adding some lighthearted atmosphere into here, as it had got overheated recently. That is evident with my "haha I love it" comment. I didn't feel it necessary to repeat my view on renaming, seeing as I made myself clear on that side of things in the previous thread about renaming the article. I'm fairly sure Xavier will have seen my comment has banter and not malicious.  Wes Wolf Talk 07:52, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * So many people keep on accusing "censorship", "bias", "supression" on everyone while themselves being similar. There are biased users, but instead of talking in a civil tone, or relatively civil, it involves into a politico-religious, even national slugfest. Many users are here honest editors. But even then, few care to solve differences amicably. Honestly, Xavier's comment are meant in a bad manner to others. 117.199.84.88 (talk) 10:02, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure to whom that remark is being directed towards, or if it is in relation to the other IP who's comments were legitimately removed per WP:SOAP, WP:NOTFORUM, and WP:NPA. Alas, they have now been blocked. But there is a discussion active at the bottom of this talk page, should you wish to participate and share your views.  Wes Wolf Talk 10:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that quibbles of geography notwithstanding, most media seem to refer to it with reference to London Bridge. I appreciate that it is not quite WP:COMMONTERM, but on that kind of reasoning, I would use the description that mainstream media tend to use.  I also think (for what it is worth) that two years hence it will help distinguish it from the Westminster attacks (or, God forbid, another London attack during this calendar month). --Legis (talk - contribs) 10:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah I agree with Legis it might not be WP:COMMONTERM but mainstream media is using London Bridge Attack so going with the media might be the best option.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  11:00, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * You well know what my comment referred to User:Wesley Wolf. Vandalisms on attack articles aren't rare. There are editors who have been involved in such things, some are blocked, some are let go until blocked later or creating troubles. Some just poke fun at others and are disrespectful instead of straightforward rule-breaking. Who or exactly when we could dig and refer to a lot of it if you want. Nor is XavierItzm's comment right. Bad faith assumptions may seem funny, but it doesn't bode well for the site and will only create distrust. 117.199.84.88 (talk) 11:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Disputes aside, I'm okay with simply "June 2017 London Terror Attack" even though such headings aren't much used and in common practice. But "London Bridge" doesn't sound okay. The attack wasn't limited to one place. 117.199.84.88 (talk) 11:23, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Location of transition
According to Cressida Dick's recent statement the van was driven to Borough Market, however we say that it was crashed on the bridge. I'm sure there's a photo or footage of the van  available, so news outlets should have the exact location. Can someone check, and clarify? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 08:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC).


 * The images are very clear. The van drove south over the bridge, and stopped on the pavement on the west side at the south end of the bridge, close to the east end of Southwark Cathedral.  That is near Borough Market, which is a very short walk away.  It certainly did not drive "to" Borough Market.  "Towards" perhaps.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.196 (talk) 08:59, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps part of the confusion comes from the way 'London Bridge' can be used to refer to not just the actual bridge itself but the area around the southern end of the bridge, ie. where the London Bridge station etc. is. Quite where one would draw the line between the 'London Bridge' area and the 'Borough Market' (etc.) area is probably a moot point. DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It stopped on the bridge abutment, not above the water but above ground level. Here's a ground-level view of the abutment with a shop inside the bridge embankment on the right, the cathedral on the left and the Barrowboy and Banker pub sign just visible. 92.19.24.114 (talk) 14:14, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Bridge
Could we have the bridge in a day time shot?Trevor Casey (talk) 13:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That's the same image as the one used in the main article on London Bridge. I personally don't see what difference it makes either way (day or night picture), except that as the attacks happened at night perhaps the night one is marginally more relevant here.  But if someone thinks otherwise, there are more images in the gallery section of the London Bridge article, eg. this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:London_Bridge_from_South_bank.jpg DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:40, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ye, the attacks took place at 22:08 BST. So I'd agree that a night time view was more appropriate. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

the UK Threat Level
why having it in the article, its not in any similar page BernardZ (talk)
 * Unlike previous instances in which the threat level was raised post-attack, in this case the threat level was high prior to the attack due to a previous attack + intel. + it is Ramadan .Icewhiz (talk) 14:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Umm, actually the threat level is the same that it's been at for most of the last several years. It was raised to the highest level after the Manchester bombing, but dropped back over a week ago. -- 83.104.44.241 (talk) 15:21, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 4 June 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved by Anthony Appleyard. (non-admin closure) GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 15:34, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

June 2017 London attacks → June 2017 London attack – This was a single incident involving two separate locations, just like the 2017 Westminster attack, which is not referred to as "attacks" plural. The majority of reliable sources also describe it as a singular attack. Prioryman (talk) 09:17, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me to be misleading to call this "a pair of attacks". Surely it was a single incident? This attack was functionally pretty much the same as the Westminster attack: a vehicle attack followed by a knife attack in a nearby location, carried out by the same perpetrator(s). However, our article on the Westminster attack describes it as a single incident (2017 Westminster attack, not attacks). I'd suggest revising this article to make it clear that it was a single incident and renaming it as June 2017 London attack. Prioryman (talk) 08:52, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I'm going to be bold and move it to the singular. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:57, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I've requested a move since I don't have access to do the move. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:01, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree also. To me this is like someone attacking a crowd first with a gun, and then when they run out of ammo, switching to a knife.  AFAIK the attackers ran people down with their van, got out, and immediately proceeded to stab people. DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:04, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

As suggested above, "London" is a bit too generic. It would be worth adding in the word "Bridge". 2017 London Bridge attack.


 * If an agreed title can be reached, then I don't mind performing the move seeing as I have page mover rights.  Wes Wolf Talk 09:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * My vote goes to '2017 London Bridge attack', ie. specifying 'Bridge', and singular 'attack' rather than plural. DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:12, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Also see, in which a discussion was still active until unilaterally moved to this current title. The user has been questioned about this, but no reply back as of yet.  Wes Wolf  Talk 09:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't favour specifying "London Bridge" in the title as it also took place in the Borough. Same reasoning as for "Westminster attack" as opposed to "Westminster Bridge attack". Prioryman (talk) 09:19, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That is an interesting perspective . I agree on the Westminster situation as that was in the Borough of Westminster. Seeing as both London Bridge and Borough Market are both in the Borough of Southwark, should we be looking towards June 2017 London attacks → June 2017 Southwark attack?  Wes Wolf Talk 09:24, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think the comparison with the Westminster attack is quite valid. That attacked started on the Westminster Bridge and proceeded towards and ended at the Palace of Westminster, hence 'Westminster attack'.  This one started on the London Bridge and proceeded towards the *southern* end of the bridge, at least parts of which are referred to commonly as 'London Bridge', as in "I took the Tube to London Bridge" (meaning the station, not the actual bridge).  In any case, just calling this 'London attack' seems awfully vague and non-specific to me. DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:33, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I've just added some more locational info. The attack started on the north side of London Bridge (the City end). The van crashed on Borough High Street, and the remainder of the attack was around Stoney Street adjoining Borough Market. So it actually took place in two boroughs. I agree that just calling it "London" is a little vague but it's perhaps unavoidable given the roaming nature of the attack. Prioryman (talk) 09:40, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I would presume the naming of London Bridge tube station is due to its proximity to London Bridge, and not based on "area". Most if not all of the London Underground stations are named due to a street or landmark it is located in close proximity. Both London Bridge and Borough Market ar located in Southwark. But I am just throwing idas into the pot.  Wes Wolf Talk 09:38, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I fully agree that the station gets its name from the bridge. My point was, the immediate vicinity also gets its name from the same source, albeit possibly indirectly via the station.  If someone asks me where the Shard is, I'd probably say 'London Bridge', but maybe that's just me.  Anyway, my view is (at the risk of repeating myself) that in what comes to the title for this article, 'London Bridge attack' is specific enough, so it's immediately obvious what is meant (rather than calling it 'London attack'), while being succinct enough even at the cost of some accuracy (rather than something more factually correct but more convoluted like 'London Bridge and Borough attack'). DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:43, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a valid point, which I respect. I've just become under attack from thee same IP who posted anti-semantic remarks on here. I hope an admin will intervene soon, as I don't know how much more I can take today.  Wes Wolf Talk 09:46, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Just an observation: the article describing the recent Westminster attack is titled "2017 Westminster attack". This article is currently titled "June 2017 London attacks". So in addition to the issues already discussed here (singular vs. plural; how to describe the location), there's also an inconsistency which should be addressed, perhaps by starting with '2017' and dropping the 'June' part, ie. something along the lines of "2017 London Bridge attack" maybe? DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:35, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * 'Westminster' is a metonym for 'UK Parliament' as well as being the name of the bridge/ palace/ tube station, district and borough. So comparisons are not wholly valid or useful, insofar as they are valid, it's perfectly normal in London to use the name of a station or landmark to describe closely adjacent areas, in this case that would be 'London bridge', which is infinitely better known outside London than 'Borough Market'. Pincrete (talk) 11:49, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Same people, same time frame = one attack. WWGB (talk) 11:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

What about either June 2017 Central London attacks or 2017 Central London attacks? CB19 (talk) 13:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support:Attackers were the same ones it seems. 117.199.84.88 (talk) 11:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support One group continuing with one attack.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 12:14, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose: It's possible that there can be different types of attacks by the same people. The fact that there were both stabbings and vehicle rammings says, to me, it should stay plural (attacks, not attack). CB19 (talk) 13:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support: One event - same attackers. close proximity. Same immediate time frame (they didn't "return to base", and then go out and stab in a separate incident. They rammed, ran, and stabbed). Quite similar to 2017 Westminster attack (which is attack) - initial ramming, then stabbing in close proximity. In the night of, there were questions whether these were connected (+ a 3rd non-connected stabbing got lumped in). There is no question now.Icewhiz (talk) 13:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not a confirmed attack
Has any credible news outlets confirmed this as a terrorist attack? I can't find any. you mentioned one when you restored the attack mention -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 22:43, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

>> I was watching Sky News and they said so about five minutes ago on the live feed on Youtube.--Walsak (talk) 22:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Anything in a reliable source? -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 22:48, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Is it reliable enough now, snowflake? Thismightbezach (talk) 17:38, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * nothing reliable to confirm terrorism at this early stage. BBC have even reported that the police have not confirmed anything of the sort (terrorism or linked incidents) and urge people not to speculate whilst they are investigating a rapid-evolving series of incidents.  Wes Wolf Talk 22:54, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Changing death section on infobox
Hi all, wouldn't it be a good idea to change the death section on the infobox page from: "7 + 3 perpetrators" to "10 (7 citizens, 3 perpetrators)" because there is a total of 10 deaths in this attack. The reason why I bring this up is because all terrorist pages on Wikipedia have the total number of deaths - including the attacker(s). --82.41.158.132 (talk) 10:32, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, but some people seem to take issue with grouping together the victims and their assailants. In any case, since I updated the number of victims to 7, I've noticed that this has changed a couple of times already (eg. someone changed 'attackers' to 'perpetrators').  IMO all this is largely down to personal opinion, and as such it's probably impossible to get consensus. DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Deaths of suicidal perpetrators (who clearly attacked and did not expect to survive unscathed - high risk attack) are clearly not in the same category of innocent victims. I personally would prefer these terror attacks get an Infobox military conflict, where perpetrators (who, usually, in their mind are carrying out a military terror mission). get one side, and the attacked get another side. e.g. Battle of Nasiriyah. Most of the free world really doesn't place equivalence between the two. The headline I see in Reuters (and other places) is "Reuters TV: Seven killed in London attack" - without any mention in the headline of the perps' death.Icewhiz (talk) 10:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I think 'number of victims' and 'number of deaths' are two different things. Yes, I realise how some people might find putting the victims and attackers together insensitive.  But the infobox field is called 'deaths', not 'victims', so in that sense counting the two groups together would not be factually incorrect.  But I agree with you, separating them along the same lines as the 'belligerents' in a military conflict article would be the clearest and probably least controversial, all told. DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:58, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. The field is fatalities, not victims. The infobox has fields for victims, perpetrators, assailants and injuries. The article body can further elaborate about the number of victims and assailants.- MrX 11:14, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * In 2008 Mumbai attacks attackers are listed separately from other fatalities. But frankly I think they should be separated in the Infobox template - and that we should get a clear view of what happened to the assailants (escaped and at large? captured? injured? dead?). As-is you are left guessing in the Infobox.Icewhiz (talk) 11:26, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * In the death section though however, it does include the attackers involved in the incident. Assailants have always had their own seperate infobox but we are talking about how many deaths are involved in the attack and every terrorist attack page including the November 2015 Paris attacks, 2017 Westminster attack and 2017 Manchester Arena bombing have in their infoboxes, the total number of deaths including citizens and attackers together but seperated in brackets (---). --82.41.158.132 (talk) 12:11, 4 June 2017 (UTC).
 * I went ahead and changed it to "10 (7 civilians, 3 attackers)" which brings it in line with the formatting used in November 2015 Paris attacks and 2017 Westminster attack however just to point out the previous way it was noted "10 (including 3 attackers)" was the format used in 2017 Manchester Arena bombing. If this was outside WP:BOLD and requires more discussion than I thought please feel free to change it back.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  12:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the infobox looks fine! Thank you for changing that Alucard --82.41.158.132 (talk) 13:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * 7 + 3 perpetrators is much shorter than your suggestion. Your suggestion doesn't add more information. There are examples of articles who list the deaths up like this as well. And some of us do find it a little disturbing to put victims and perpetrators in the same boat.--Rævhuld (talk) 14:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Not sure when it was changed back to just "7 + 3 perpetrators" but I changed it back to what the IP was suggested. Which matches September 11 attacks, November 2015 Paris attacks and 2017 Westminster attack in formatting.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  18:56, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Erroneous times given in the map/diagram
I commented-out the diagram because some of the times given are wrong. For instance, the police were called at 22:08 and did not attend until after that. Please fix the timings before reinstating it. -- de Facto (talk). 21:15, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I see you reverted me with no fix and no reason given, please fix, or remove, your diagram/map. -- de Facto (talk). 21:22, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I reverted you because I was working on the fix at the time that you made that edit. The file is fixed now. Prioryman (talk) 21:23, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. Please consider using edit comments to explain your edits, particularly reverts such as that, so we know what's going through your mind. -- de Facto (talk). 21:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Including perpetrators in the death toll
Someone has just changed the article to include the perpetrators in the death toll. I know this discussion took place before with previous incidents, but should we include them among the dead? This is Paul (talk) 18:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are dead.- MrX 18:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * But they're not victims of the attack. This is Paul (talk) 22:19, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * But they are deceased nevertheless. Showing the total and then how that figure is split down to victims and perps, is what the other articles like this appear to follow.  Wes Wolf Talk 22:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Point of order: The documentation for Template:Infobox civilian attack says: fatalities – Number of people killed during attack(s); optionally, you can split this into different types of people (e.g. 121 passengers, 21 crew or 3 soldiers, 1 civilian) TompaDompa (talk) 22:30, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to including the breakdown in parentheses or a plainlist.- MrX 22:35, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Me neither. Looking at a thread above, a similar suggestion was put forward, and other artists linked to show similarities.  Wes Wolf Talk 22:51, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Please check this grammar
"A driver of a white van rammed pedestrians on London Bridge and came to a halt south of the bridge."

I contend that drivers drive, and vans ram. disagrees preferring the above version in which the driver rammed the pedestrians.- MrX 21:30, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree, above version sounds strange, as though driver jumped out of van to personally ram, also logic of sentence is that the driver then came to a halt, which is not what is meant. Pincrete (talk) 23:16, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

US President Donald Trump first two reactions to incidents
In his first reaction to the incident, U.S. President Donald Trump wrote on Twitter in relation to his travel ban executive order: "We need to be smart, vigilant and tough. We need the courts to give us back our rights. We need the Travel Ban as an extra level of safety!" He further wrote that the United States would do whatever it can to help out in London and the U.K. CNN documented that his national security team had briefed him on the incidents.

--- Placing here for posterity. Sagecandor (talk) 23:34, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Can we get rid of this absolute garbage from the article? I keep trying to remove it, but someone has now accused me of vandalism (LOL). 86.185.30.254 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:36, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It IS notable whether one like it or not. I have trimmed the quotes to proper english.Lihaas (talk) 23:39, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * This is crackers! There's more in the article about what Trump thinks than there is about the incident itself. Can we please remove the nonsense? 86.185.30.254 (talk) 23:40, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Does the IP need to be reminded about civility towards others? What might be garbage to one person, may be useful information to another. Everything needs to be written in a neutral point of view, including reactions from Heads of State.  Wes Wolf Talk 23:41, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Nope, but I think the editor who accused me of vandalism does. 86.185.30.254 (talk) 23:42, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Multiple references now applied to single statements - a sure sign that the contested statements should be deleted. 86.185.30.254 (talk) 23:45, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That warning on your talk page is a standardised worded template, issued via Twinkle. I wouldn't worry too much about it, and assume good faith. I get them all the time and shrug them off like water on a duck's back.  Wes Wolf Talk 23:45, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * :) No probs - thanks. But what about that stuff from Trump? I think at this stage in the article development it really isn't needed and for the most part is not relevant - all that stuff about a travel ban ... 86.185.30.254 (talk) 23:48, 3 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Citation overkill needs to be considered in cases like this. Too many inline citations for one piece of context isn't necessary.  Wes Wolf Talk 23:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Tweet 2 was just quoted on BBC News. I'd say that's the most relevant one to this topic and the one we should use. This is Paul (talk) 23:49, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Replaced all primary sources with secondary sources. This is notable. Secondary sources are reporting on it. Multiple. Sagecandor (talk) 23:48, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you to the IP for cooperating and respecting civility. I respect that it can be hard at times like this, as tempers can get frayed and overheated. But an approach of calm should be practised as it helps others to maintain a level of calmness during this distressing incident. The Mt have now confirmed all of this as an act of terror though.  Wes Wolf Talk 23:56, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with the IP in saying that the trump tweet should be removed but not in full. The travel ban nonsense is political garbage that really is just extra fluff. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I support the inclusion of this. I've seen quotes hailing "Merkel as the leader of the free world" when she wasn't even a major participant of Trump's withdrawal from Paris. I think it's important that this gets mentioned under "reaction". Lankandude2017 (talk) 12:05, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I also support the inclusion of Trump's reaction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was not aware that Wikipedia suddenly has a mission that is Pro-Trump. We shouldn't be Anti-Trump, but we shouldn't be Pro-Trump either. This exclusion of his reaction is definitely a Pro-Trump action. Kiteinthewind  Leave a message! 00:13, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Time of the start of this post??
It says this post was written at 9:43 pm by Phineas s who has no history on Wikipedia but by all accounts this began around 10 ish. Is this a mistake or am I misunderstanding the time stamp? Kitra101 (talk) 20:42, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia by default uses Coordinated Universal Time which is 1 hour behind British Summer Time.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  20:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * x2 I think that is an error, as that time would have been correct if we (the UK) were still in GMT and not in BST (which is GMT +1). I'm pretty certain an article uses local time and not UTC - per MOS:TIMEZONE. .  Wes Wolf  Talk 20:48, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok gotcha thanks Kitra101 (talk) 20:49, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * As I was about to add before an IP rudely deleted my comments. MOS:TIMEZONE is explicit in stating to "give dates and times appropriate to the time zone where an event took place".  Wes Wolf Talk 20:52, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * If you look at the edit history of the article and click oldest that is where it shows Phineas first created the article. For me it shows the article was created at 5:43pm EDT and under Special:Preferences the default time zone is UTC which is what the server is based on unless the user has changed it at some point. So it is possible that 's settings has them for UTC as their time zone.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  21:01, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

That is where you may be getting confused. Indeed the servers use UTC, but when writing times within an article MOS:TIMEZONE states to write the time it happened in that specific region's time zone. As the UK are currently observing daylight saving time, then all times of incidents should be in BST, which is (UTC+1). The manual of style guide is explicit in this factor. The time written in an article itself are unaffected by Special:Preferences. isn't on about the times displayed in the edit history, but is on about the time displayed in the article body itself, which is unaffected by the server.  Wes Wolf Talk 21:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I actually see what is meant now. The time in the article has been changed too and against MOS:TIMEZONE. But yeah, in an edit history, the time will display what you have your timezone set in the Special:Preferences. I have to change mine to take into account GMT/BST time changes.  Wes Wolf Talk 21:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * LOL I was about ready to make a clarifying statement I was talking about the edit history when you posted this. Like how my preferences are set for EST/EDT  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  21:16, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ironic that a thread about time display in an edit history (which comes down to preference), also raises an issue on the incorrect time displayed on the article (which isn't following MOS:TIMEZONE at present). The former I cannot fix. The latter needs to be fixed, as the article is displaying incorrect times and not in accordance with manual of style.  Wes Wolf Talk 21:19, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The first line reads: "On 3 June 2017, starting at 21:58 BST". Well 21:58 BST would equate to 20:58 GMT. Whereas 21:58 GMT would be 22:58 BST (GMT+1).  Wes Wolf Talk 21:22, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I thought the time was correct because the source has 21:58 (9:58pm) BST as the time.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  21:31, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I thought it happened at 22:08 (10:08pm) BST? Or am I getting myself mixed up with the time the police were called? It has been a long one, and still no sleep for me yet. From when the news broke out last night, I have been awake ever since (bear in mind I woke up at 09:00am BST on 3 June), so I think I'm proper going hardcore without sleep LOL.  Wes Wolf Talk 21:38, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think it was a slight mix up there the police was called at 10:08pm BST no worries though. Hopefully you can get some rest soon buddy.  ♪♫Al ucard   16♫♪  21:43, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

So in summary, this article was not started before the incident started correct? That was my real question. Kitra101 (talk) 00:56, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
 * No, it was not. I'm closing this as off-topic now that it's been resolved. TompaDompa (talk) 00:59, 5 June 2017 (UTC)