Talk:2019/Archive 1

Baseball players
I see that the info I put in earlier about Hall of Fame eligibility was taken out. Please note that I wrote that the voting is by the Veterans Committee and not the BBWAA. The procedure for HoF membership is voting by the BBWAA after five years' retirement and then "If a player fails to be elected by the BBWAA within 20 years of their retirement from active play, he may be selected by the Veterans Committee, which now votes every two years." All of the players I listed fell off the BBWAA ballot in 2004, and thus, according to current HoF rules, can get in 20 years after their retirement. Next time please read and process the whole of the material you think is incorrect before removing it. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.185.85.70 (talk) 22:15, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The Island
The island is not set in 2019. one character makes reference to the 'genetics laws of 2050'.(67.189.233.146 18:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC))

Near-Earth objects
"Although there have been a few false alarms, a number of objects have been known to be threats to the Earth. (89959) 2002 NT7 was the first asteroid with a positive rating on the Palermo Technical Impact Hazard Scale, with approximately one in a million on a potential impact date of February 1, 2019." this is a abstract from the "near-earth ojects" page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.107.250.177 (talk) 11:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Metal Gear Acid 2
Sorry, edit comment was cut short. There is no source given for MGA2 being set in 2019. The only time reference given in the game is that Snake appeared in the Serena Republic three years prior to the main event in the story, which was not the events of the first game (2016). The article therefore assumed that no time had passed in between the original Snake's body being recovered on Lobito Island (after end of first game), Snake's clone being created, the clone's participation in the Praulia Massacre, the clone's loss of memory, and THEN the clone being discovered in the Serena Republic, three years before the second game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.3.127 (talk) 20:22, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Running Man
I think the book and movie "The Running Man" are set in 2019, although I have no source it should say it on IMDb.--Dominik92 00:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Pretty sure the movie is set in 2017, but not sure about the book. Movie came out in 1987, so they just set it 30 years in the future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.110.131 (talk) 03:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Blade Runner
The film, Blade Runner (1982) takes place in the year 2019 in Los Angeles. L. Thomas W. (talk) 01:25, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
 * (A limited) consensus is that fictional settings are not welcome. I disagree, but that's the way it is.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 06:06, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Child of Prince Harry and Meghan
Various entries like:


 * The child of Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex and Meghan, Duchess of Sussex will be born.

Have been added. I didn't revert the last time, but am now doing so, because it would not be a notable event if the child is not born live. Seems more speculative than construction project completion years. But, if consensus is against me, I will let it sit. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:34, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

New years count down
Can someone tell why every year users use wikipedia as a new years count down? Thats not what this is for.--75.66.124.118 (talk) 15:13, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * We have tried to stop it in previous years but you end up with an loads of editors wanting to add that it is now 20XX in my village so it needs to be added. We could lock the page but that seems unreasonable - just better to ignore it for a day. MilborneOne (talk) 15:18, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2019
Please make three changes:


 * "The Orthodox Church of Ukraine makes its schism of the Russian Orthodox Church formal": ironically, this isn't very formal. Could it be changed to "The Orthodox Church of Ukraine formalizes its schism with the Russian Orthodox Church"?
 * "2019 Indian general election": could this be changed to "India will hold a general election"?
 * "2019 Philippine general election": could this be changed to "The Philippines will hold a general election"?

I copied the general election format from what was said about Indonesia and Nigeria. 208.95.51.53 (talk) 14:33, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thanks! -- irn (talk) 19:19, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria
We seem to be having the addition a few deaths that dont appear to be internationally known particular from the United States. I have removed some individuals but I suspect some others are also iffy, just a sanity check that we should only list individuals that have some international exposure. MilborneOne (talk) 17:51, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Don't mean to be rude, but I wish you would just stop undoing the work other user's are doing. If it bother's you speak to that person on there talk page about it! Matt Campbell (talk) 20:38, 13 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Normally we would raise it on this page first so others can be involved. MilborneOne (talk) 20:46, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Images
When we have enough space to add images and depending on the situation, these are who should probably be included. Pegi Young, Bob Einstein, Marko Nikolic, Gene Okerlund, Herb Kelleher, Harold Brown, Lamin Sanneh, and depending on which articles have images. Matt Campbell (talk) 15:07, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Again, this makes no sense unless you use Wikilinks. Probably will be no more than 5 images, even after there are enough events for it to fall past the sidebars.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 20:39, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Notable articles
Note: Feel free to any articles that might be useful

Articles: I found at least 30 notable articles. Maybe this will help:

Matt Campbell (talk) 22:36, 13 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Im beginning to repeat myself, dumping the talk page with names and then links will not help. You need to name each challenged individual and why you think they are noteworthy enough for enclosure. Others will not do the work for you. So one at a time list the names that you should be added and others will see if they should be included. And remember that is list is not the place to list local politicians and such like as they are listed in Deaths in 2019 and "2019 in "foo country" articles. If you dont understand then please ask questions. MilborneOne (talk) 22:47, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

I never asked anybody to do the work for me. I was just asking for assistance, and everybody to work as a team, which is completely different. Matt Campbell (talk) 15:02, 15 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Wikilinked names and corresponding references would be the minimum that would be helpful in supporting your requests. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 20:50, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

US Copyright law change
reverted my removal of the January 1 event involving a change in US copyright law. Setting aside that there is no reference for it, it's not an event that belongs here. Media coverage has been minimal and appears to have been largely limited to the US. It is also the very definition of a US-specific event, given that it—by definition—only applies in the United States. If we're living in a world governed by this RFC, I can't understand why we would include this. agt x 19:26, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * It is not precisely US-law-specific, as some countries use US law for US copyrightable materials if coverage is longer than their own law. It is US-specific, in the sense that it applies to materials in the US or copyrighted in the US.  As it's the first material to fall out of copyright in 20 (or 30) years, it seems relevant.  However, I cannot find a clear source which states that, only a synthesis.  Still trying to find a source.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 20:30, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think that RFC holds. If I remember/understand correctly, after this RFC and then this RFC, we have no guidelines for these pages beyond general content policy, but the consensus has generally held that events and people should have some semblance of international significance. -- irn (talk) 23:34, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Brexit vote
On January 15th, UK parliament rejected the Brexit deal which was a widely covered news event all over the world. I think it is worthy of being included in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rayansb (talk • contribs) 21:04, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I think it makes more sense to include just the brexit itself in March, not each step leading to it. — Yerpo Eh? 21:12, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Include: The vote itself is notable enough to be included. The Optimistic One (talk) 21:44, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Noteworthy for 2019 in the United Kingdom but not here, really just internal British politics at the moment. MilborneOne (talk) 22:58, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Names
Before we start adding more names. Does anybody know if we should add the celebrity dog "Boo" to the list? He was an internet sensation, and had been famous since 2010. Matt Campbell (talk) 22:23, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * All the coverage seems to be from the US at the moment. Note also that there needs to be significant coverage of life and death. Black Kite (talk) 22:27, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

It's not any different than Koko the famous gorilla, who passed in 2018. Matt Campbell (talk) 22:32, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes it is. Koko was internationally known, and reported on in mainstream media.  Boo is known only on social media and commentary on social media.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 03:29, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * What Arthur said. Koko's life and death was reported in "serious" news sources around the world. What few sources have covered Boo's death have basically said "Dog had 16 million social media followers, and has died". Black Kite (talk) 07:31, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Notable Deaths
I've read a lot of obituaries and International news articles on the names of Mason Lowe, Aloysius Pang, and Wade Wilson.

I know there are a lot on Aloysius Pang, and he died in a plane crash while he in the middle of training exercise for the armed forces and most plane crashes are worldwide, here are some of the locations:

US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, China, Japan, India, Thailand, Singapore

Matt Campbell (talk) 17:05, 3 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Matt, it's been explained to you more than once that Mason Lowe isn't sufficiently notable for this page - indeed, this is a person who didn't even have a Wikipedia article before his death. There are some international stories about him - but they're all about the unusual manner of his death; there's practically nothing on him before that.  He belongs in the 2019 US page, but not here. I can see one or two non-US articles about Wilson, but very few.  I am not as familiar with Asian acting notability but Pang, again, appears to have little coverage outside Singapore.  I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise about this one, though. Black Kite (talk) 18:01, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

There are 2 non-US articles on Wilson that I found from Canada and Japan, there might be more just not able to find them. How many non-US articles meet the requirement? Are you saying your only persuaded by Pang? Pang has articles from the US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, China, Japan, India. A lot of articles I found on him appear to be international. Matt Campbell (talk) 19:59, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Also on Wilson I forgot to mention earlier that I found an article him from Portugal, Mexico, Spain and probably Cuba. Because there were articles on him written in Spanish. Matt Campbell (talk) 21:02, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you drop the links to those stories in here, then? I did look at Wilson the first time you mentioned him (and Pang) and couldn't find a lot, but there might have been more since then.  You can put the links in by enclosing them in square brackets, i.e. [ www.website.com ] Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 21:13, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Ok. Sounds good. First lets start with Aloysius Pang. I found articles from US, Australia, New Zealand, Myanmar, India, Singapore, Malaysia, Canada, China, UK.

1. [ https://variety.com/2019/film/asia/singapore-actor-aloysius-pang-dies-dead-killed-military-service-28-1203116497/ ]

2. [ https://thewest.com.au/news/world/singapore-actor-aloysius-pang-killed-on-military-service-in-new-zealand-ng-b881084463z ]

3. [ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12195325 ]

4. [ https://elevenmyanmar.com/news/actor-aloysius-pang-dies-saf-to-lower-training-tempo-to-better-focus-on-safety-armywide-safety ]

5. [ https://www.ibtimes.co.in/who-aloysius-pang-singapore-actor-critically-injured-during-military-training-790609 ]

6. [ http://www.ibtimes.sg/singapores-defence-minister-says-injured-actor-aloysius-pang-needs-artificial-life-support-29067 ]

7. [ https://www.businessinsider.my/a-star-is-lost-these-are-some-of-actor-aloysius-pangs-most-memorable-tv-and-film-performances/ ]

8. [ https://www.asiaone.com/singapore/aloysius-pang-dies-politicians-offer-condolences/ ]

9. [ https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/world/singapore-actor-aloysius-pang-dies-from-military-injuries-278391/ ]

10. [ https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/2183422/singapore-actor-aloysius-pang-dies-new-zealand-military ]

11. [ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/aloysius-pang-injured-actor-singapore-military-exercise-new-zealand-a8739046.html ]

Matt Campbell (talk) 22:16, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, looks good enough to me. Black Kite (talk) 00:26, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Ok. Sounds good. I'll go ahead and add him. Matt Campbell (talk) 01:39, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Gene Okerlund image
Regardless of the idiotic notion that Gene Okerlund is sufficiently notable to have a Wikipedia article, there is absolutely no chance he should have an image while any of the other January 2019 deaths do not. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:31, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment: Why is it idiotic? Mean Gene was in WWF/WWE for years, he was internationally notable. The Optimistic One (talk) 00:23, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Mark Hollis
We still don't know the date of his death. It was reported February 25. Probably could be listed, but with a footnote. However, I tried to list someone who disappeared with a footnote, and the entry was deleted. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 12:59, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Possibly non-notables
I have just removed the following as I dont believe they meet the inclusion criteria:
 * Blake Nordstrom, American businessman (b. 1960) (Approved)
 * Gene Okerlund, American wrestling announcer (b. 1942) (Approved)
 * Sylvia Chase, American news anchor and journalist (b. 1938) (Out of the picture)
 * Patricia Wald, American judge (b. 1928)
 * Paweł Adamowicz, Polish politician (b. 1965) (Approved)
 * John C. Bogle, American investor (b. 1929) (Approved)
 * Glen Wood, American race car driver (b. 1925)
 * Harris Wofford, American politician and civil rights activist (b. 1926) (Approved)
 * Jeremy Hardy, English comedian (b. 1961) (Approved)

I suspect we a lot more added recently that probably need to be removed but do we have any support for any of these being added back? MilborneOne (talk) 17:35, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I talked to another admin a while back and he says that Jeremy Hardy was notable. Matt Campbell (talk) 17:38, 3 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Have you any evidence he was known outside of the United Kingdom? MilborneOne (talk) 17:47, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * A quick look sees obituaries from the US and Australia (and, rather oddly, Palestine) as well as Ireland. I think there were others at the time but like many obits they tend to be difficult to find once they've disappeared off front pages. Black Kite (talk) 17:53, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

On Paweł Adamowicz, his was an assassination and there were a lot of international articles on his death. Matt Campbell (talk) 17:41, 3 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Hardy looks notable to me - obituaries from a number of countries. Bogle's death also generated a pretty large press.  Adamowicz's assassination was a very big story, even though he may have been fairly low-profile outside Poland before that.  I would restore the first two, and possibly the third. Black Kite (talk) 17:45, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Dear old Jeremy Hardy, love him as I did, is not exactly a household name in the UK. When I was going around saying, "Have you heard, Jeremy Hardy has died", most people's response was "Who?" Deb (talk) 09:36, 10 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I would suggest that Chase for one is unknown outside of the US. MilborneOne (talk) 17:52, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Here's who should probably stay: Okerlund, Adamowicz, Bogle, Wofford, Hardy. The others shouldn't be added unless if we can find another article from another country. Or unless if we could explain otherwise. Matt Campbell (talk) 17:55, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Update: I saw some Non-U.S. articles on Okerlund from the UK, Ireland, Australia, and a few countries Asia. Matt Campbell (talk) 19:31, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Another Update: I found Non-U.S. articles on Wofford from the UK, Canada, and I found an obituary from Scotland. Matt Campbell (talk) 21:01, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

So I guess it is safe to go ahead an restore 2 more names since nobody has said anything about it being a problem. Matt Campbell (talk) 23:18, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Update: I found Non-U.S. articles on Nordstrom from Canada, India, UK, Australia, and New Zealand,. If you don't believe me, Here:

[ https://globalnews.ca/news/4812813/blake-nordstrom-executive-death/ ]

[ https://www.businessinsider.in/blake-nordstrom-a-top-executive-and-heir-to-the-department-store-dynasty-has-died-heres-how-the-nordstrom-family-built-their-store-empire-/articleshow/67388110.cms ]

[ https://fashionunited.uk/news/people/nordstom-president-blake-nordstrom-died-age-58/2019010240780 ]

[ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-6549369/Department-store-executive-Blake-Nordstrom-dies-58.html ]
 * The Daily Mail is not a Reliable source. Deb (talk) 09:33, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

[ https://www.businessinsider.com.au/blake-nordstrom-death-mourned-by-employees-customers-2019-1 ]

[ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12185089 ]

Matt Campbell (talk) 00:00, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

It seems to me that, if an entry is not included in the relevant Year in Topic article, they shouldn't be included here. I'm also noticing that the above user is adding only US entries, which is adding to the existing systemic bias in the article. Deb (talk) 09:33, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Yona Atari
please create Yona Atari. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.219.247.103 (talk) 05:52, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

disney fox buyout
When Disney buys 21st Century Fox, will it be added to this article? It would seem very notable, considering many media are reporting on this. 78.108.56.35 (talk) 15:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Scott Walker image
Scott Walker absolutely deserves an image. His article has been translated into 22 languages, and his musical influence has been massive across the world (2 #1 hits in the UK and a #13 hit in the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.150.225.211 (talk) 21:35, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Adding names
Due to some of the recent editing conflicts, I think I might best that nobody adds any names unless they can find articles from countries, or without permission from the admins. Also some might not need any depending the coverage of the person. Matt Campbell (talk) 01:26, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think we already have that convention but it doesn't stop people from doing it. We should also reduce the number of images as they are cluttering up these sections. Deb (talk) 15:31, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Albert Finney
I reiterate this question I posed to on his talk page but I’m also looking for other input. I added Albert Finney’s image into the article but he was removed, with AR saying he was “a bad choice”. I don’t understand that reasoning. Finney is world renowned, 4-time Oscar nominee in his field. It’d be fair to say he was more notable than someone like Kristoff St. John, but I don’t wanna get into comparing a deceased persons notoriety. Anyway just looking for a concrete reason. Rusted AutoParts 17:45, 29 March 2019 (UTC)


 * We dont really have a criteria for images other than not to include to many they overwhelm the article. That said Finney would be a reasonable choice to be added, he is well known and not American (to balance the usual bias). MilborneOne (talk) 17:49, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It's only 8 12 minutes since you posted on my talk page. I think a Secretary of the Army is more notable than an actor, in general.  Perhaps Finney could replace one of the singers, or Charlie Whiting.   — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 17:55, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * You're one of the other editors who made this particular change. Comments?  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 17:58, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I've taken out Charlie Whiting twice, but he keeps being re-added. Deb (talk) 19:12, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Who keeps adding him? Matt Campbell (talk) 19:30, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * You've re-added his image twice in the past three days, as you well know. Deb (talk) 19:36, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't remember adding him. Matt Campbell (talk) 19:41, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Removing names
In view of recent discussions with User:Black Kite, User:MilborneOne and User:Matt Campbell, I've been bold and removed a number of Brits from the Deaths section because they were really not that famous in the UK. Anyone who disagrees can add them back but I would suggest you try and make a good case:


 * Cadet, British rapper (b. 1990)
 * William Davis, German-born British journalist (b. 1933)
 * Paul Flynn, British politician (b. 1935) - great guy but not even a Cabinet minister
 * Michael Green, British theologian (b. 1930)
 * Eric Harrison, English footballer (b. 1938)
 * Eric Haydock, British musician (b. 1943)
 * Felicity Hill, British Royal Air Force officer (b. 1915)
 * Mark Hollis, English singer-songwriter (b. 1955) (Re-added)
 * Geoffrey Langlands, British army officer and educator (b. 1917)
 * Sir John Richardson, British art historian and biographer (b. 1924)
 * Ron Smith, British comics artist (b. 1928)
 * Mike Thalassitis, English-born Cypriot footballer and television personality (b. 1993)
 * W. Morgan Sheppard, British actor (b. 1932) - appears to be known only for small roles in Star Trek

Deb (talk) 15:45, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok That's a good idea.

If anyone wants to add them back, discuss it with an admin or you can discuss it on here with others. But remember to include articles from other countries in order to prove that they should be on here.

Warning: If anyone add's any of these name's back without talk page consensus, or without approval from an admin then the edit will probably get reverted.

If anyone manages to find any articles from other countries on any of these people then send them to me on my talk page and I can take a look at them and see if they are useful or not. Matt Campbell (talk) 18:21, 29 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I am not sure wikipedia works like that. MilborneOne (talk) 18:24, 29 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm just trying to help out here. Matt Campbell (talk) 18:37, 29 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Agree with them all apart from Hollis. Singer and songwriter with a band that had success all over Europe and were lesser known worldwide, and who pioneered an entire music genre.  I can also see obituaries from at least half a dozen countries, and that's just on the first two pages of Google News. Black Kite (talk) 18:48, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with him coming back (even though I'd never heard of him till he died). But I think we need to take into account where the obituaries were from - for example, a lesser-known music website wouldn't carry the same weight as an obituary in The Times. (I haven't looked to see if there is one.) Deb (talk) 19:44, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Hollis had obituaries in most of the heavyweight UK news sources (The Times one is here), and also foreign sources like the NY Times, Billboard, Rolling Stone etc. I'll put him back now. Black Kite (talk) 23:28, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * For Mike Thalassitis, I already saw articles from U.S., India, Cyprus, South Africa, England, Ireland, and New Zealand. Matt Campbell (talk) 19:07, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "I saw articles"? As far as I can see, none of the other language Wikipedias have articles on him apart from English and Greek. If you've seen press articles about him, how many of them related directly to his death? Deb (talk) 19:15, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Also I forgot to mention Spain, so from 8 countries. Matt Campbell (talk) 19:26, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * But, Thalassitis was not a well-known person outside of appearing on one series of Love Island. There was of course a brief spat of news stories about his death because it was of course covered by social media and tabloid sources. If you look at his article, 90% of it is about his (unremarkable) football career followed by three lines saying he appeared in a couple of reality shows. Black Kite (talk) 23:28, 29 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I say retain Eric Haydock, for he was the bassist of The Hollies during much of their peak in popularity - and is also a Rock & Roll Hall of Fame inductee --Thescrubbythug (talk) 10:52, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I say I can't see any reason to include him - I was a huge fan of the Hollies and I don't remember him at all, though I could name most of the other members of the group (Alan Clarke, Graham Nash, Terry Sylvester, Tony Hicks). And only Nash was a household name. Deb (talk) 13:17, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I knew of Eric Haydock quite firmly for years before he died, and I was and only is a casual Hollies fan. He was around during the first few years - which coincided with the peak years of the British Invasion - and left the band around the time Bus Stop came out. As far as I know, he was pretty well regarded as a bassist, and only left due to a management dispute. He certainly wouldn't have been inducted into the RRHOF for no reason - especially since the organisation has had a pretty notorious track record of excluding key band members, such as Bruce Johnston of The Beach Boys and Bob Welch of Fleetwood Mac --Thescrubbythug (talk) 14:52, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd never heard of Bob Welch either - possibly because his solo career seems to have been mainly in the US. But if Haydock was inducted into the HOF simply as a member of the Hollies, then presumably you think all members of all bands that are in it should be included here, and I'd say that's highly debatable. Deb (talk) 17:42, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Ken Nordine
Ken Nordine was recently added by an anon. He seems to be unknown outside the US and probably little known within it, so I propose removing him. Any objections? Deb (talk) 15:10, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

I think he should be removed. Everyone already agreed that his name shouldn't be included. Matt Campbell (talk) 15:17, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Teotónio de Souza
I've removed this person, who wasn't listed in 2019 in Portugal and whose article is tagged for better referencing. Deb (talk) 07:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Emiliano Sala
Really only notable for the circumstances surrounding his death; was not even an international. I propose removing the entry and the image. Deb (talk) 10:24, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Removing the image is fine, his death however was such a huge international story (it was front page for days) that I think it belongs here. Black Kite (talk) 11:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Friday is status quo for Brexit
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/08/brexit-uk-faces-reckoning-with-no-deal-deadline-just-days-away.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1003:B01A:191F:C453:4015:1BFA:C31D (talk) 00:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Ahem. Black Kite (talk) 00:31, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
 * If the EU 27 don't unanimously pass the extension request then this is a moot point. Like how the extension announcement on the 22nd wasn't made official until early the following week. 96.244.93.97 (talk) 01:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest that, if User:198.200.181.196 or 2600:1003:B01A:191F:C453:4015:1BFA:C31D (that's assuming you're not the same person) wants to add something like this (or any other event), they include an inline citation in the article to show that what they are saying is correct. Nevertheless, the present consensus is not to include it. Deb (talk) 07:47, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

omar al bashir
we urgnelty need to add the fact that omar al bashir has resigned due to the military, please add since this is edit protected. 62.109.36.16 (talk) 08:13, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * His article currently says "It, however, has yet to be verified as the Sudanese Armed Forces stated it is to make an "important announcement" on State TV." So no urgency. Deb (talk) 12:00, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I understand, it, however, will get urgent when it is revealed that he was ousted. 62.109.36.16 (talk) 12:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I think we should know the full story first. Events that are still unfolding should be held back, in my opinion, so that we make sure we only report reliable facts. Deb (talk) 13:03, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Contentious content removed
I've removed this paragraph from the Events section:

An estimated 400,000 people march in central London in protest against Brexit.

The page history shows that this was amended after its addition to the page because of doubts over the number of people attending, in favour of an alternative estimate. I'm actually wondering whether any protest against the activities of a single government is of great enough international significance even to be mentioned in a Year article. If it's decided that it is, then a better way of wording it needs to be found. Comments welcome. Deb (talk) 15:37, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Minor musicians
I've removed these three musicians who clearly weren't internationally known: Deb (talk) 23:04, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Clydie King
 * Lorna Doom
 * Chris Wilson


 * Prove it? Matt Campbell (talk) 02:56, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * One was a session musician, thus his name would not be widely known even if he was a major one, which the article doesn't suggest he was; as far as I can see, the other two never had any hits outside their home country (perhaps not even within it?) Deb (talk) 15:24, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Dick Dale image
I think Dick Dale deserves to have his image put up given his iconic status & influence - he was known as the "King of the Surf Guitar" and was the most famous performer in the surf music genre besides The Beach Boys. His songs such as Miserlou and Let's Go Trippin' remain enduringly popular to this day, and his work as a guitarist has influenced generations that came after him - such as Jimi Hendrix and The Ramones --Thescrubbythug (talk) 10:58, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Which other American or Brit would you suggest removing? Deb (talk) 13:15, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Also, do you have a decent image of Dick Dale? The ones in his article are pretty poor. Deb (talk) 13:19, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I would suggest removing Manohar Parrikar, who seems to be a political figure that would be considered very obscure outside of India. If not him and somebody who must be British or American, then Charlie Whiting. As for image, I'd agree that the ones used on his page really is far from ideal.... this seems to be the best one from WikiCommons - and is really no worse than the Keith Flint photo: File:Dick Dale, Viva Las Vegas, 2013-03-30 IMG 8131 (8605847986).jpg --Thescrubbythug (talk) 14:45, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with that last comment and if it were up to me I would remove the whole entry for Keith Flint but he does seem to be more widely known than I thought. I'll make a start by removing the Whiting image again. Deb (talk) 17:46, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I propose removing the image of Herb Kelleher, who is little known outside the US. Deb (talk) 07:39, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Done. Deb (talk) 15:07, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Mark Hollis
Should his name really be on here? Since we don't really know the actually day that he passed? Matt Campbell (talk) 22:16, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I thought I said that already. On this talk page.  But perhaps it was lost in an edit conflict.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 09:26, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter that we don't know his date of death. He was an internationally known musician and the massive range (and quality) of obituaries shows that. Black Kite (talk) 22:44, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Guardian Telegraph Variety Rolling Stone BBC Le Parisien Le Telegramme Bild (Germany) Berliner (Germany) Switzerland Sydney Morning Herald (Australia) CBC (Canada) New Zealand Times of India Saudi Gazette Ireland Corriere del Sera, Italy's best selling paper Slovakia Czech Republic ESpreso (Russia) Nach Richten (Austria) Ukraine ... do I need to continue, here? Black Kite (talk) 23:05, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

I understand that. But he isn't listed on the day that he passed away. That's what the problem is. Matt Campbell (talk) 17:19, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It isn't the first time that's happened, and I doubt it will be the last. It's fine. Black Kite (talk) 10:04, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Some proposed removals
I propose to remove the following from the Deaths section:
 * Kinryū Arimoto - voice actor who doesn't seem to have done much outside dubbing foreign films (removed)
 * Carmen Argenziano - appears to have been a very minor actor; how well known by name, either in or outside the US? (removed)
 * Ricardo Boechat - notability seems mainly to do with the manner of his death. (removed)
 * Carmen Duncan - did one or two soap roles, but doesn't seem well-known outside Australia (removed)
 * Yechiel Eckstein - well known within the US Jewish community, but outside? (removed)
 * Richard Erdman - appears to have been a very minor actor; would Americans even recognise him? (removed)
 * Desmond Ford - apparently notorious within the Seventh Day Adventist church, but was he known outside it? (removed)
 * Olli Lindholm - had a single number 1 hit in Finland with his band; probably well-known in Scandinavia but not internationally. (removed)
 * Franco Macri - his notability appears to rest mainly on being the father of the Argentine president. (removed)
 * Carmine Persico - okay, a major figure within the gangster world, but was he famous outside it? (removed)
 * Clive Swift - really only well-known for one role in a sitcom (removed)
 * Vinny Vella - another minor actor; how well known was he in the US? (removed)

I'd be happy to discuss any of these with other contributors who know more about them. Deb (talk) 10:57, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

We could possibly remove Vinny Vella, Richard Erdman, Olli Lindholm, Carmen Duncan. So probably at least 4. Matt Campbell (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * These four removed. Further views welcome. Deb (talk) 16:06, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Updated 22 April. Deb (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * If anyone ever decides they want them re-added then make sure that you send me a message on my talk page, and make sure that you find articles from other countries besides just one, send them to my talk page and I will look at them. Matt Campbell (talk) 04:41, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Updated 29 April. Deb (talk) 14:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Was that really necessary? Saying "updated". Matt Campbell (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Further proposed removals
Although we seem to be fighting a losing battle in trying to get the endless lists of births and deaths down to a manageable size, more nonentities are being added daily. I'm now proposing removal of the following. Comments welcome: Time for debate. Deb (talk) 08:46, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Stewart Adams (chemist), chemist who helped develop Ibuprofen (removed)
 * Fatima Ali, chef known mainly for appearances on reality TV shows (removed)
 * Alix, Princess of Ligne, Luxembourg royal who didn't really do anything (removed)
 * Kim Bok-dong, article tagged for COI (removed)
 * Rosemarie Bowe, American actress apparently best known for who she was married to (removed)
 * Fernando Clavijo, soccer player and coach (removed)
 * John Dingell, US politician, whose notability rests on being long-serving (removed)
 * Andrew Fairlie, chef - little known in the UK and unknown outside it (removed)
 * Kevin Fret, little-known Puerto Rican musician. Apparently his only claim to fame is being "the first openly gay Latin trap artist" (removed)
 * Rocky Lockridge, US boxer mainly known for knocking out another US boxer I've never heard of (removed)
 * Peter Magowan, businessman unknown outside the US (removed)
 * John Otho Marsh Jr., US politician and academic - if we include everyone who's held a government post, we could fill the deaths list with those alone
 * Ron W. Miller, businessman mainly known for being Disney's son-in-law (removed)
 * Hidekichi Miyazaki, Japanese athlete known only for competing in a sporting event for people aged over 100 (removed)
 * Ndaye Mulamba, Congolese footballer, known mainly for being the subject of an assassination attempt - if we include him, it would only be for global balance (removed)
 * Mel Tomlinson, dancer and choreographer, not widely known outside those circles (removed)
 * Andrzej Wieckowski, US academic with no apparent claim to international fame (removed)
 * Sergei Yursky, Russian actor with little international recognition (removed)
 * Updated 29 April. Deb (talk) 10:45, 29 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Don't see a problem with any of those being removed. I would also add Marella Agnelli, who doesn't appear to be notable for anything she did, more who she was. Article is terrible as well. Black Kite (talk) 14:57, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Updated 30 April. Deb (talk) 17:45, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Updated 1 May. Deb (talk) 12:31, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I just wish this nonsense would stop. Matt Campbell (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
 * By "nonsense", I assume you mean the adding of nonentities, making the Deaths section unmanageably long. It's been a problem for ages. Deb (talk) 18:37, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Some yes, and some no, also you and have caused so much damage already to the article. Matt Campbell (talk) 20:10, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't see any damage to the article. Including so many people just because they have an article is, to my mind, even more damaging because it dilutes the importance of those that are there with good reason. If a politician is notable, but only in their own country, they don't belong here. 95% of the world is not interested in "Secretaries of Defence" or "House Speakers".  The people here should be those who have had genuine international notability. Black Kite (talk) 21:55, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Or depending on if they have other Wikipedia articles in over 9 different languages or more, that's another rule I forgot to mention a while back. Or depending on the amount of references that they have. Matt Campbell (talk) 22:07, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No. It's a guideline, but not a rule.  You could easily write an article with hundreds of references about a politican who no-one has ever heard of outside their home country.  I could probably easily expand the article about my local Member of Parliament to a ridiculous number of references - he's been there for 43 years - but he's not notable enough for this page. Black Kite (talk) 22:19, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * That's a living person, so that doesn't count. We don't add living people.Matt Campbell (talk) 23:34, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Well obviously, but my point was that if he died he wouldn't be notable enough for this page regardless of how many citations I added. And you could do this with pretty much *any* politician because they always have lots of (local) coverage. Black Kite (talk) 11:42, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * One of those listed was Secretary of the U.S. Army, most notable politicians are presidents, vice presidents, secretary of state, secretary of Defense, House speakers, chief of justice, Prime ministers, Ambassador's, minsters of defense, etc. Or depending on the amount of references list on article pages. Matt Campbell (talk) 18:53, 26 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I removed 10 of them. That's should be enough. The rest are going to be kept! Matt Campbell (talk) 19:48, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
 * They'll be kept if there's consensus for them to be kept. Black Kite (talk) 10:38, 27 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Richard Lugar definitely needs to go. If we include all US senators they will completely fill the list! Deb (talk) 07:24, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * As well as having too many biographical entries, we also have too many images again. Need to get rid of some as they once again overflowing the list of names, and we're only 1/3 of the way through the year. Deb (talk) 07:27, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I would agree with the removing all of them in the list. MilborneOne (talk) 14:28, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * He's no different than John McCain! Matt Campbell (talk) 21:24, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Do enlighten us as to how Lugar is of international significance, Matt Campbell! Deb (talk) 18:10, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * If I picked on to go I would pick Fritz Hollings instead. Matt Campbell (talk) 21:27, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Erased Fritz Hollings from list. Hope your happy. Matt Campbell (talk) 21:41, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

, you wrote on my Talk page: "I don't want you editing the yearly article page anymore because you have cause enough damage to it already, everything was fine until you came along, and starting changing everything without discussion it with other users."
 * It's not acceptable to talk to other editors as if you owned Wikipedia and you need to stop doing it, otherwise you might find yourself blocked again. I recognise that you think you are doing us a service, and that's why I have gone easy on you up to now, but I won't put up with listening to your pronouncements on how things should be done every day of the week.Deb (talk) 07:39, 30 April 2019 (UTC)


 * This is not the place to discuss this. Matt Campbell (talk) 12:23, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * this is something that we need to discuss privately. Not on here. Matt Campbell (talk) 13:16, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * You,, need to stop displaying ownership over this page. Your comments above are evidently out of touch with what we expect from such pages, and you are most definitely in the minority here.  I suggest you start working with others here rather than continue to rail against them.  The Rambling Man (talk) 14:25, 30 April 2019 (UTC)


 * , you refer to some curious requirements, such as if they have other Wikipedia articles in over 9 different languages or more, that's another rule I forgot to mention a while back. Or depending on the amount of references that they have, as if they were policy. In fact, the now-historical Recent years project requirements weren't even guidelines, they were an essay.  But that "project" was deprecated a year or two ago, and along with it these so-called inclusion criteria.  It's probably better to stop referring out to an archaic essay.  And I have never seen any requirements on the referencing within the target articles.  I think time has moved on, and you need to embrace our current consensus-based approach rather than continue to try to impose your own personal preferences. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Next time if there is a situation just like this one, can it be discussed somewhere else instead of here. This page is for a specific purpose, thanks. Matt Campbell (talk) 21:34, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * no need, this is the correct place to talk about what is included in the page, the criteria for inclusion and any related issues. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

All the links by the recently deceased
I noticed that someone added a link to an obituary to a bunch of people who died back in April? Are those extra links really necessary? Cause I don't see a point in them. JoeyRuss (talk) 23:13, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * If you're asking why there are inline citations for the entries in April, it's because of this guideline and there's no specific exclusion for Year articles. Unfortunately, people often post things without checking the facts and we're becoming more rigorous.Deb (talk) 07:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Thai king events
I believe Thai king events should be placed in 2019 in Thailand instead, because the two events had little impact. --Wedjet (talk) 03:25, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Some proposed removals
I propose to remove the following from the Deaths section:
 * Paul Dewar - Canadian MP who didn't hold any major office (removed)
 * Ethel Ennis - Apparently little known outside Maryland (removed)
 * Walter B. Jones Jr. - Minor US politician (removed)
 * Stephen Negoesco - Unknown outside US; his article is tagged for better references (removed)
 * Paulo Nogueira Neto - Apparently little known outside Brazil (removed)
 * Šaban Šaulić - Apparently little known outside Serbia (removed)
 * Jörg Streli - Austrian architect, not internationally known (removed)
 * Allan Wild - New Zealand architect, not internationally known (removed)
 * Wade Wilson (American football) - Appears to have been a very minor player (removed)


 * You didn't sign your post. Matt Campbell (talk) 21:32, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry. Deb (talk) 21:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No apology necessary. Matt Campbell (talk) 21:59, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Updated 18 April. Deb (talk) 08:17, 18 April 2019 (UTC) Updated 22 April. Deb (talk) 15:25, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Further proposed removals
Open to debate. Deb (talk) 08:56, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * George Brady (Holocaust survivor) - survived the Holocaust (which is wonderful) and was given various awards but that doesn't make him internationally famous (removed)
 * Maxine Brown (country singer) - little known even in the US (removed)
 * Alberto Cortez, Argentine singer and songwriter - nothing to suggest he was internationally known (removed)
 * Windsor Davies, actor - only known for prolific appearances in British sitcoms; I doubt anyone outside the UK would recognise his name
 * Owen Garriott, American astronaut - I have nothing against him personally, but are all astronauts to be automatically included in these lists?
 * Fritz Hollings, American politician - His main claim to fame seems to be that he lived a long time (removed)
 * John Joubert (composer), minor classical composer (removed)
 * Ron Joyce, Canadian businessman - a lesser figure in the establishment of Tim Horton's (removed)
 * Paul Koslo, German-Canadian actor - not widely known (removed)
 * Alf Lüdtke, German historian, little known outside Germany (removed)
 * Tony Mendez, CIA officer and writer but not known outside the US (removed)
 * Pierre Nanterme, French proprietor of a management consultancy (removed)
 * Mya-Lecia Naylor, English child actress, not widely known even in the UK (removed)
 * Bazilije Pandžić, Croatian historian, archivist and orientalist - not internationally known (removed)
 * Lamin Sanneh, US professor, virtually unknown (removed)
 * Pepe Smith, minor Filipino musician (removed)
 * Sanford Sylvan, little-known US opera singer (removed)
 * Andrew G. Vajna, Hungarian-American film producer but not significant in the history of cinema
 * Updated 24 April. Deb (talk) 08:43, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Updated 20 May. Deb (talk) 11:37, 20 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to give you some heads up, you don't own the document, and not only just about what you want, it's about what everyone want's as well, and what they think as well. Not just you! Matt Campbell (talk) 22:17, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * If you have a view, maybe you could say what it is... Deb (talk) 22:36, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * A view on what? Matt Campbell (talk) 22:44, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd remove all of those. Windsor Davies did have a pretty good international spread of obituaries, so might be borderline. Black Kite (talk) 22:47, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * We also have to remember the coverage of the people as well. Doesn't some of it have to do with references? Some of them have over 75-100 references and are really long bio documents. Matt Campbell (talk) 22:53, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Also I forgot to mention there are 2 of them that should stay, and probably remove the rest if necessary. Matt Campbell (talk) 22:56, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it would be helpful if you would say which ones you think should stay, and why. Deb (talk) 07:16, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
 * "Why" is the the priority. Matt Campbell (talk) 14:09, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok so here about Geoffrey Langlands So here to post some international articles on his death https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/03/obituaries/geoffrey-langlands-dead.html    (American Article), (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/major-langlands-pakistan-favourite-headmaster-dies-101-190102140946143.html Qatari article) https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/geoffrey-d-langlands-obituary-british-commando-who-educated-pakistan-s-elite-1.3753665 (Irish Article) https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/world/pak-pm-imran-khan-s-teacher-geoffrey-langlands-dies/707648.html (Indian Article) so as you can see this guy has been noted in multiple different countries. --ThatBaileyLad (talk) 15:09, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * He's got obituaries in different countries. He has Wikipedia articles in only two languages. He's certainly not widely known in the UK. Deb (talk) 15:40, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * In fact, not even well enough known to have an entry in 2019 in the United Kingdom... Deb (talk) 15:42, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok sure --ThatBaileyLad (talk) 16:03, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to browbeat you, but we need to look at it from different angles if we are ever going to get the births and deaths sections down to a manageable size. Deb (talk) 20:29, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The only reason you removed him is because you don't want him here. Matt Campbell (talk) 21:35, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

No, Matt Campbell, it's because he's part of a list we previously discussed on this page. Your comment was: "Ok That's a good idea. If anyone wants to add them back, discuss it with an admin or you can discuss it on here with others. But remember to include articles from other countries in order to prove that they should be on here. Warning: If anyone add's any of these name's back without talk page consensus, or without approval from an admin then the edit will probably get reverted."
 * And you were right, it will be. Deb (talk) 08:25, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh. yeah I did say that. Matt Campbell (talk) 13:08, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Proposed removals
Throwing open to debate as usual. Deb (talk) 08:09, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Tim Conway - another minor US actor.
 * Rachel Held Evans - had one e-book on the e-book bestseller list in the US. No international notability as far as I can see. (Removed)
 * Grumpy Cat - seriously? An animal famous for its unfortunate appearance and use in advertising?
 * Pua Magasiva - minor TV actor whose death is the only reason he's been heard of outside the Antipodes. (Removed)
 * Gianni De Michelis - article suggests he was little known outside Italy. (Removed)
 * Nobuo Sekine - no apparent international notability. (Removed)
 * Thomas Silverstein - American murderer. No international notability as far as I can see. (Removed)
 * Freddie Starr - was once well-known in the UK, mostly for tabloid stores. Not internationally significant. (Removed)


 * Agree with your comments and suggestion that they all be removed. MilborneOne (talk) 08:15, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I disagree with a few of them. Matt Campbell (talk) 14:53, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Also Tim Conway wasn't a minor actor just so you know also! Matt Campbell (talk) 14:56, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I know the number of different wikis that a person has a page on isn't the standard anymore, but Tim Conway has a page on 53 different wikis. That seems significant, but I'll agree that his death did not get a lot of international coverage, though I saw at least one Swedish and one Irish article. Emk9 (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by wikia's? Matt Campbell (talk) 18:58, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Other language wikipedias Emk9 (talk) 20:43, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Conway should stay, the others are highly debatable except perhaps Grumpy Cat which, like it or not, was a global phenomenon. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:45, 18 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I agree with Rambling Man. Matt Campbell (talk) 01:08, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you be clear, Matt Campbell? Are you agreeing that all the others except Conway can go? Deb (talk) 12:19, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe or maybe not. Matt Campbell (talk) 12:39, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Brilliant. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:16, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * How about this, Tim Conway and Grumpy Cat stay, the rest can go. Problem solved. Matt Campbell (talk) 13:32, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Why is Grumpy Cat more notable than Boo (dog)? I don't recall hearing about either of them before their deaths, although I realize I've seen Grumpy Cat before.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 19:00, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Boo was only a facebook celebrity. Matt Campbell (talk) 19:02, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think that's patently obvious from the articles and even using that "good old-fashioned how many Wikipedias has an article" (of which Rubin was a staunch defender), puts this little discussion to bed pretty quickly. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:06, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Now can we maybe revisit Ashley Massaro and Silver King (wrestler)? It's true they have articles in multiple wikis, but much of that is the increasing trend towards creating articles based on recent new articles in other languages, rather than because they are internationally known. Deb (talk) 06:56, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Why does it bother you? Matt Campbell (talk) 13:41, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Because the births and deaths section is way longer than is manageable, as has been discussed and agreed on this page many times before. Deb (talk) 15:27, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Has nothing to do with birthdays. Matt Campbell (talk) 05:09, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Matt, if you keep posting meaningless comments, people are just going to ignore them. Deb (talk) 07:36, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Some of us already have Deb. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:40, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Meaningless? Matt Campbell (talk) 04:09, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, Matt, meaningless. You seem to answer questions with vague or ambiguous responses, like "Maybe or maybe not" and "Has nothing to do with birthdays". Use complete sentences and good English, be clear about what you are trying to say, and you are more likely to get a positive response. Deb (talk) 07:39, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Why does it matter how somebody response's? Matt Campbell (talk) 17:27, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Because the ability to communicate effectively is specifically mentioned in WP:CIR. Black Kite (talk) 18:49, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposed removals
They keep creeping in. I propose removing the following: Open to discussion. Deb (talk) 20:06, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Diana Athill - little known even within the UK (removed)
 * Betty Ballantine - no international notability
 * O'Neal Compton - no international notability (removed)
 * Desmond Ford - no international notability (removed)
 * Nathan Glazer - he has articles in other language wikipedias but is he really widely known outside the US?
 * Joan Guinjoan - not a highly-ranked composer outside Spain (removed)
 * John Habgood - important post in the C of E, but not widely known outside the UK (removed)
 * Francisco Mañosa - no international notability (removed)
 * John Otho Marsh Jr. - still don't see anything to suggest he is known outside the US (removed)
 * Charles McCarry - no international notability (removed)
 * Aloysius Pang - apparently known mainly for his premature death (removed)
 * Kodi Ramakrishna - little known outside Telugu film industry (removed)
 * Werner Schneyder - no international notability (removed)
 * Armida Siguion-Reyna - no international notability (removed)
 * Jan Wahl - no international notability (removed)
 * Reggie Young - no international notability (removed)
 * Updated 2 June. Deb (talk) 15:39, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Are you going to keep doing this everytime someone add's a name on here? Matt Campbell (talk) 20:38, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * That would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do since consensus for adding people here would be entirely inline with Wikipedia's ethos. Do you have a specific problem with enabling a consensus-led discussion to decide who is and who is not acceptable for this page?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * She does it all the time. Matt Campbell (talk) 20:42, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you okay Matt? Did you read what I'd written?  It's fine to do this.  Probably actually beneficial to our readers for us to use consensus to decide who is listed here, rather than the opinion of a few white middle-class American men, don't you think?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Why are you asking if I'm okay? Matt Campbell (talk) 20:46, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * As I said, it appeared that you hadn't read what I had written, and not for the first time your responses don't seem to make much sense with relation to the previous discussion. Instead of saying WP:CIR, I just thought checking you were okay was a more collegiate thing to do.  If you need any help with anything, let me know.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:57, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't need help, and yes I did read what you said. Matt Campbell (talk) 21:00, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, great. So perhaps respond inline with the discussion rather than the continual tangential remarks which really don't expedite us to a conclusion in most situations. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:01, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Is there a way to change the size of the images so that doesn't become an issue? Matt Campbell (talk) 21:04, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Making them smaller is not an option as they would become too small to easily recognise. Discussing inclusion here is optimal. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:09, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Then we would have to remove some of the images due to space and names removed. Matt Campbell (talk) 21:20, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's correct. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:31, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * If there's a little bit of space available only a small image can be added not big one. Matt Campbell (talk) 23:12, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Logically yes. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:49, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The discussion is entertaining (for all the wrong reasons) but it would be nice to have some views on the individuals listed. Deb (talk) 08:49, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I disagree with Betty Ballantine. She was probably among the top 5 notable (worldwide) science fiction and fantasy publishers.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 09:53, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, someone needs to expand her article, because at the moment it makes her sound a fairly minor writer.Deb (talk) 11:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I already removed her from the article, if you want to re-add the name back then feel free to do so. Matt Campbell (talk) 13:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Her article offers no sign of the sort of notability to be featured on this list. Even fails the traditional "nine Wikipedias" (or whatever) rule with a paltry "one other Wiki" appearance.  Dismal. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:40, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

June 3–5 – U.S. President Donald Trump makes a state visit to the United Kingdom.
May be it is not first state visit to United Kingdom by President Donald Trump. Perhaps first visit was on 13 July 2018.

See the photo https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Donald_Trump_with_Queen_Elizabeth.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Anatolii Litvinenco (talk • contribs) 04:58, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The previous visit wasn't a state visit, it was a private visit. Deb (talk) 08:17, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

June 3
I think it better that it remain linked, in spite of WP:OVERLINK


 * June 3–6 – ...
 * June 3 – ...

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:28, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Eclipses
See WT:YEARS for a matter relevant to this page. Arthur Rubin (alternate) (talk) 23:08, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Proposed removals
I propose removing the following recent additions:
 * Carmine Caridi, actor - no international reputation (removed)
 * Dennis Etchison, minor writer (removed)
 * Thad Cochran, unremarkable politician (removed)
 * Frank Lucas, criminal (removed)

Open to debate. Deb (talk) 15:36, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

I removed Thad Cochran. Matt Campbell (talk) 15:40, 2 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Now I removed Dennis Etchison. Also I replace at least 1 image with a small one instead. Matt Campbell (talk) 16:25, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Updated. Deb (talk) 08:17, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Why does what Lucas did matter? Not only does he have the 18 different wikipedia languages, he infact has more page views internationally then in the US. . For a total of 2,681,725. We can't pick and choose based on ethics here. GuzzyG (talk) 06:39, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Silver King (wrestler)
I'm convinced that, in a rational world, he shouldn't have a Wikipedia article. Nonetheless, dying during a performance ("professional" wrestling is almost entirely staged, even in Mexico) doesn't seem to add a reason for including the image. There are others in May more worthy of an image. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:04, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Possibly notable enough for this page (although I suspect not), but definitely not worthy of an image. Black Kite (talk) 22:11, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
 * He has became a worldwide known phenomenom since his death was recorded and has became a topic of discussion on the necessity of wrestling safe equipment. He is worthy to be here. Elton2978 (talk) 20:46, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Circumstances of death are not a reason for someone to be considered internationally famous. Deb (talk) 06:41, 18 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Not everyone is going to get there image put on here, either way! Matt Campbell (talk) 20:20, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: He was also in Nacho Libre, playing the antagonist. The Optimistic One (talk) 23:04, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Sutopo Purwo Nugroho
There was an importance tag added by him, so I’ll explain why I think he’s notable. Whenever natural disasters happened in Indonesia, he was the guy who reported on them, and that received a bunch of coverage outside of Indonesia during his lifetime. That and that his death received a bunch of coverage outside of Indonesia makes me believe that he is notable enough for that page. JoeyRuss (talk) 22:41, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you explain why his death wasn't notable enough to be included in 2019 in Indonesia? Deb (talk) 21:54, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The page itself hasn’t been edited in over a month, which only shows that it’s not a page people edit very often. In Indonesia, there is plenty of coverage of his death in there, it’s just that no one has added it yet. I’m sure if someone added him there he would be accepted without question. And just because nobody added that there doesn’t deter the fact that his death had plenty of coverage outside of Indonesia, showing that he is deserving of a spot on this page. If he didn’t have that coverage outside Indonesia, I wouldn’t be arguing for his inclusion. JoeyRuss (talk) 02:18, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm just pointing out that those who have an interest in these matters should be going to Year in Topic first, before adding entries to the main Year article. Deb (talk) 08:38, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Ashley Massaro
We should add her into the page since she was a public known figure, she was a former WWE Diva, she appeared on Survivor, she appeared on some music videos, she posed for Playboy, we should really add her in here, do we all agree? Elton2978 (talk) 20:48, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Again, in a rational world, she wouldn't be notable. And, although appearing on Survivor and in music videos are NOT reasons for inclusion, I suppose she should have a listing.  As for an image, it's certainly after the ALL the current commented out listings, so it's probably not going to happen.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 21:00, 17 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The image of her doesn't seem to be really appropriate in my opinion. Matt Campbell (talk) 00:14, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It seems to me like she is only being noted because she has died. She's not internationally known and I see no reason for her to be included in the article at all. Deb (talk) 06:40, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This discussion is about an image being included, nothing else. Matt Campbell (talk) 15:08, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Incorrect, Matt. The discussion is about whether she should be included, as you can see from the first few words of Elton's post. Deb (talk) 12:18, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Also the image doesn't look appropriate either way! Matt Campbell (talk) 01:06, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep: Wrestled for WWE, the single biggest wrestling promotion in the world, who has an audience throughout the globe. The Optimistic One (talk) 19:28, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you think that everyone who wrestled for WWE should be included? Deb (talk) 21:53, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe anyone who was relatively successful in the company should be included. I know that Massaro spent a couple of years at the company, won a competition, and wrestled at WrestleMania, which is WWE's flagship event. The Optimistic One (talk) 22:49, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * How are we to keep the Births and Deaths sections of the Year pages to a manageable size if we include everyone who has ever wrestled at WrestleMania? Not to mention everyone who has ever played any international sport, appeared in a film or been on TV? Deb (talk) 11:23, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Look, I know that there's alot of entries being listed and editors want to keep it managable, you should check out 2018's page because that one's really stacked, but Ashley Massaro was known around the globe before her untimely death, most WWE wrestlers are, WWE has a broad reach and tours around the globe. Anyone who was relatively successful with the company is known to most pro wrestling fans. The WrestleMania that Massaro fought in was also the most bought WWE PPV at the time. The Optimistic One (talk) 13:25, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, believe me, I have seen what a mess 2018 is! Though I have to say I don't know what "Anyone who was relatively successful with the company is known to most pro wrestling fans" has to do with this. Can you really quantify how many wrestling fans there are in the world compared with, say, football fans, basketball fans, etc? Deb (talk) 13:29, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't really tell you how many wrestling fans there are wordwide, since there's no definite number, I can tell you however that that the WWE Network is availible in alot of countries, so it does have a worldwide appeal. The Optimistic One (talk) 13:46, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Freddie Jones
Actor who had a career for over 60 years, should he be added? 78.108.56.35 (talk) 21:12, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd say not. He's primarily known here in the UK but by no means a household name. Deb (talk) 22:18, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Us bias besides he was in some hollywood flicks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:763B:B258:D1A3:FF0F:624B:CAA3 (talk) 01:03, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Dates
Why is the month first? In Ireland, and other parts of the world, we go by DD/MM/YYYY like it should be. These type of articles feels too Americanised. The Optimistic One (talk) 20:48, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
 * , The editors who first put these articles together were American? In any case, consistency among year articles seems to override the normal "first non-stub" choice guideline.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 10:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Lee Iacocca Image
I think an image of Lee Iacocca should be added given his status as a giant in automotive history. Not only was he the CEO of Chrysler and succeeded in bringing that company back from the brink, but he was also instrumental in the creation of the minivan body-style and the Ford Mustang. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.15.96.72 (talk) 22:05, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Who? Deb (talk) 22:09, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree, level 5 figure and some obits described him as second to Henry Ford. GuzzyG (talk) 10:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * "level 5 figure" is meaningless as selected by, at most, three or four editors in some odd corner of Wikipedia. No image required. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:59, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, i am one of those "four" and i am someone who dedicates 24/7 (not just for wikipedia, my own independent project) to checking google ngrams, google trends, google scholar results, worldcat results, listings in other biographical dictionaries/encyclopedias, wikipedias own pageviews and edits and various other statistics and compiles them to find people from every field representing a diverse bunch. It may be above YOUR head that one person can sufficiently guess notable people from multiple things, but it's a completely accurate endeavor. I've put over 5 years and thousands of hours into building such a enterprise, who are you to say it's meaningless? You see a Youtuber/Kim Kardashian or some other field you think is tabloid and you dismiss the whole list because you fail to see trends in historicity, that doesn't taint the whole list. look at a excel sheet like that, then consider i have one for every field in exactly the same way covering the whole list and over 50, 000 names not on the list, and think, maybe it is possible for a small bunch of people to accurately pick a list of "vital articles" based on statistics and the activity surrounding them. Can you tell me a better way? 50 people who have not done zero research voting off of what they think?  GuzzyG (talk) 16:43, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It's just your opinion, as it is ours. And "vital articles" really isn't taken seriously other than within its own four walls I'm afraid. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:59, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * No, it's not my opinion - i don't have a opinion on any of these subjects, i purely go off of the research and statistics. You can consider "tattoo artists deserve representation because of how common they are, despite the mainstream coverage" then yes, a opinion but as a encyclopedia i would hope covering most things is a common opinion. I am not fussed by such open dismissal, as it's led me to pursue a completely different project, that will be independent of Wikipedia and for that i am blessed (and have stopped working on the level 5 list). But that doesn't mean that the level 5 list is wrong, it just covers fields that a traditional encyclopedia would not in a way, but if the point of the list is to find articles that would be good to have a featured article on then yes, i would think the coverage of everything would be a good thing. I just have to refute the image that the list has accrued of it being a bunch of editors favorite people or something, actual time and effort has went into it, it's just (me being the person with the most edits on the list) i strongly believe on such a list, as many things as possible deserve representation, so say instead of 150 soccer people, we have 110 and 50 niche sports people. That's all, i don't care about what people think of the list 99% of the time, but i do care when it's dismissed as just a hastily thrown together rubbish list with no merit either. GuzzyG (talk) 17:19, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * No matter how you spin it, even using a spreadsheet, it's still down to opinion, whether that's how someone's significance is weighted against another's. That's irrefutable.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:25, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

may 30 the chosun ilbo
"May 30 – South Korean newspaper The Chosun Ilbo reports that North Korea executed nuclear envoy Kim Hyok-chol and four other diplomats in March after the failed February Hanoi summit with the United States. The newspaper also reports that Kim Yong-chol, a top aide to Kim Jong-un, was sentenced to hard labor during the purge."

Should this paragraph be updated to include the fact that Kim Hyok-chol is actually alive as there were photos of him alive in June? 78.108.56.35 (talk) 18:53, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably, if there is a reliable source for the information. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 03:01, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I confused Kim Hyok-chol with Kim Yong-chol, but sources have said Hyok-chol was still alive, so maybe someone could include that the report by The Chosun Ilbo is disputed https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/03/asia/north-korea-diplomats-intl/index.html. 78.108.56.35 (talk) 13:58, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Yukiya Amano
I think IAEA Director Yukiya Amano's death is notable enough to add to the deaths section, he died 18 July 78.108.56.35 (talk) 20:31, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I added him, as head of a important international agency, he qualifies. GuzzyG (talk) 18:52, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests
The 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests is probably one of notable event in 2019. This is an important event in terms of international legal co-operation, as well as Chinese modern legal history. There are series of notable protest that "breaking the history". I suggest to added 9 June, 12 June, 15 June, 16 June, 1 July, 21 July and 5 August protest which is most notable protest that may probably change our history. Joeccho (talk) 10:40, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

jeffrey epstein
I think he is notable enough to get an image in the deaths section 78.108.56.35 (talk) 13:40, 10 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Not everyone is going to get there image put on here. Matt Campbell (talk) 17:46, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * But why wouldn't he? 78.108.56.35 (talk) 18:09, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Partly because there isn't room. Deb (talk) 18:34, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Right now there is not enough space! But maybe later on. Matt Campbell (talk) 02:47, 11 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I dunno, I'm of the view that Epstein isn't sufficiently significant enough outside of the United States to warrant a photo here. I've got no issues with his portrait in the 2019 in the United States page, however. Thescrubbythug (talk) 10:52, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Cameron Boyce
There seems to be a bit of an editing war around him, so I think it’s probably a good idea to start this for him. I note that a lot of people in my generation really do love him and are probably the ones removing the importance tag on him, but I’m personally neutral on him, at least for now. JoeyRuss (talk) 03:29, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Count me as someone from the same generation (born 1998) who doesn't think he should be considered important enough to have an image of him up (have no issue with him being included on the death list however) - certainly not at the expense of João Gilberto, who was a fairly significant figure not just in bossa nova but also by extension jazz. Much of his work, particularly with Stan Getz are considered iconic and highly influential. Thescrubbythug (talk) 09:28, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, there's still not enough room for his image, if the President of Argentina is to be included. Still, I would consider leaving the importance tag off IF his image was deleted from consideration, not just commented out.  Think we can reach consensus?  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 09:53, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I can agree to that, yeah. Thescrubbythug (talk) 11:03, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see why he's on the list at all. How does he compare with the other American "celebs" on the list in terms of international fame and significance? Deb (talk) 12:15, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I alert you to this discussion . Thescrubbythug (talk) 12:41, 10 July 2019 (UTC)


 * @User:Deb Cameron Boyce should be on the list (with or without a picture) because of the lives he saved in the third world via The Thirst Project, he is responsible for giving clean drinking water to countless of people who would have died of fatal diseases caught from contaminated water, those people don't deserve health or a decent life to you or are you just ignorant of the work he did? - User:Adler1997  —Preceding undated comment added 02:41, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Thescrubbythug (talk Just because YOU haven't heard of Cameron Boyce until his untimely death doesn't mean he wasn't an actor, philanthropist, and Dancer/Musician. You're suggesting too add a picture of someone that is only known in their country, but not someone that is internationally known as Cameron Boyce? Again, just because YOU never heard of him until he died doesn't mean he's non-existent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fargo44 (talk • contribs) 20:25, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * What a strange comment. For a start, Scrubbythug never said that he hadn't heard of him, though I freely admit I hadn't. Deb (talk) 22:19, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Whether Cameron Boyce is included in the deaths section or not, I don’t think he did enough to deserve a picture. If you want an entertainment figure there, the likes of João Gilberto and Rip Torn are much more worthy of a picture than Cameron Boyce as they did much more in their life then Cameron did. JoeyRuss (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:40, 10 July 2019 (UTC)


 * For the record, just so there isn't any confusion - Deb is correct. I never insinuated that I hadn't heard of Cameron Boyce - as a matter of fact, I had heard of him before he died and knew him from his role in Grown Ups. However, I'm firmly of the view that there are far more significant figures that should take precedence over him when it comes to the image section - such as João Gilberto and Rip Torn for entertainment, as suggested by JoeyRuss. That seems to be the general consensus here, which up to now you seem to be dismissing with contempt . Furthermore, there are people here who also argue that Boyce isn't notable enough to be included on the list - let alone have his photo up. Personally I'm not too fussed either way when it comes to that argument, but Boyce wasn't exactly a household name - certainly not outside of North America. Perhaps he should be kept on the 2019 in the United States rather than then main 2019 page. What does everyone think? Thescrubbythug (talk) 01:01, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
 * That's certainly my feeling on it. Deb (talk) 07:47, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @Thescrubbythug Why do you say "Boyce wasn't exactly a household name - certainly not outside of North America." Even though he's internationally known. MOST of the people on the 2019 deaths category don't have the name recognition on an international level. You suggest João Gilberto whose only predominately known within the confines of Latin America should get a picture?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adler1997 (talk • contribs) 02:58, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * On the point of João Gilberto, I already made my case in favour of him. It's true that his primary base of fame was Latin America, however his influence and importance in both jazz and especially bossa nova and its development made him an iconic figure internationally among the music community, and warrants the inclusion of his photo. Getz/Gilberto alone ensures his place in music history, being consistently cited as among the best albums of all time, let alone just among the best jazz and bossa nova albums. --Thescrubbythug (talk) 06:04, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Cameron Boyce clearly had more of an international name recognition than more than half of the people on the entire list of people who died in 2019, not to mention in the month on July. There's only a handful of the pictures of people who has a greater international recognition compared to Cameron Boyce, for example Ross Perot deserves a picture more than Boyce, but Boyce more so than Fernando de la Rúa who is only known mainly in Argentina. - User:Adler1997 —Preceding undated comment added 20:05, 13 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I feel like especially when it comes to the main 2019 page, we should try and avoid being very America-centric and to assume that because someone is very well-known within North America, this automatically means the same internationally. This applies to both Boyce and to a lesser extent Ross Perot, whose most notable achievement was to win almost 20% of the vote as an independent in the 1992 United States presidential election. Cameron Boyce is arguably less well-known internationally than say, Freddie Starr or Freddie Jones - both of whom were major celebrities within the British Isles - yet the decision has been made to not include either of them, as can explain. Somebody who has made it to the office of President or any equivalent which marks the highest office of power of any major state - as Fernando de la Rúa achieved - deserve to be prioritised. Thescrubbythug (talk) 02:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @User talk:Thescrubbythug Cameron Boyce is known internationally based on his philanthropic and non-governmental organizational work. He is internationally known. That being said I 100% agree with you that the 2019 death list and pictures shouldn't be American-centric, but that isn't the criticism people are basing their disagreement on Cameron Boyce being included on the list on, they're basing it on that he's 'not important', even though he is known outside of North America. He's quite a bit more internationally recognized than Freddie Starr or Freddie Jones. -User:Adler1997 —Preceding undated comment added 03:06, 14 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Let's not assume, instead, let's look at some sources. For example The Irish Times, The Telegraph (UK), India Today, The Straits Times (Singapore), China Plus, Pravda (Slovakia), Express Tribune (Pakistan). These are just a few examples of international coverage of his death that I found. I think there is considerable evidence that he was internationally well-known. Railfan23 (talk) 03:09, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @User talk:Railfan23 Thank You for these sources! Now, User:Deb, User:Thescrubbythug, and User talk:JoeyRuss be my guest and explain how Singapore, India, China, Slovakia, United Kingdom, Ireland, etc are 'North America'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adler1997 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I was staying neutral on that and didn’t say anything about him being only American centric. However, those articles above now make me believe that he should be included on this. I still don’t think his picture should be allowed though. JoeyRuss (talk) 05:21, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * For whatever its worth, I agree that he probably doesn't warrant a photo, but I do agree he should be included in the list. Railfan23 (talk) 05:26, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

We are not just US-centric, we are highly focused on the English-speaking world and in particular on mass media. Thus (just for example) football, which has a strong media presence internationally, gets far more attention than any other sport. An English Premier League club footballer (of which there are about 300) gets more attention than someone who has broken a world record in athletics. Likewise, a minor actor like Cameron Boyce can get as much attention as someone who has won several Oscars. Add recentism to this and you multiply the problem. If we continue to ignore these issues, we just make the English Wikipedia less representative of the worldwide readership. So I personally say no to the idea of including Boyce, realising that I will probably be outvoted. Deb (talk) 07:07, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * If you're worried about English only, then try these German, French, Japanese, Icelandic, Norwegian, Greek etc. Railfan23 (talk) 07:39, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * You're missing my point. English-speaking "celebrities" get more worldwide exposure because they are English-speaking and their programmes are syndicated in other countries (sometimes dubbed). That doesn't make them of greater worldwide significance. I'd put money on Boyce being virtually unknown outside the 10-30 age group, in any country. As for the "philanthropy", most celebrities now participate very visibly in charity events, so it's no longer anything to write home about. Deb (talk) 07:59, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd agree here. I suspect a lot of the coverage of his death was exactly that - because it was a story in itself, a 20-year-old dying. More useful is to look at the coverage he was getting before his death - and I'm not seeing very much at all outside listings and press releases; there's the odd story about him, mostly on entertainment websites and/or magazines, and the vast majority of that is exclusively US-based, so I'm not convinced he rises to the level of an entry on the main year page. Black Kite (talk) 23:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
 * All I will add at this stage is that I am in full agreement with what has been said by Deb and Black Kite. I'm ultimately not too bothered if Boyce is added to the list, but my preference (and vote if there is one) would be against adding him. And he should be left out until a firm consensus is reached here. Thescrubbythug (talk) 04:50, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * If we're being strict he should not be on. Yes, we should represent different age groups and audiences on this list, but to Boyce's generation, YouTubers are more notable than actors and thus if this was a prominent YouTuber i'd be in support, but Boyce has never had any major, leading roles in major films and thus i don't think being in a television film and television series makes you sufficiently internationally notable to be on a strict list. If he's still as known in 10 or 20 years, he can be re-added here. GuzzyG (talk) 11:04, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * User talk:GuzzyG Your statement "Boyce has never had any major, leading roles in major films" is factually incorrect. Cameron Boyce was actually in movies that were on the 'Big Screen' (i.e. in Theatres) the most notable being Grown Ups, and Grown Ups 2. So, you're comment that he was only in Television movies is inaccurate. -Adler1997 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:21, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * You're both right and wrong. Boyce was indeed in both films, but he didn't play a major, leading role in either of them. Nor are the films exactly critically well-received or iconic (even for Adam Sandler's standards). Thescrubbythug (talk) 02:56, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll propose a compromise. How about Cameron Boyce gets neither his name on the list nor a picture until the end of July? -Adler1997 (talk) comment added 01:30, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * In what way is that a compromise? Are you expecting him to star in some more films by the end of this month? Deb (talk) 13:08, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @Deb It's a compromise because it's a wait and see to see if more notable people die before the end of the month. Also, he has posthumous roles coming out in the near future. -Adler1997 (talk)
 * Sorry, the first part of that makes no sense. Even if no more people die before the end of the month, he still won't be of international significance. The only thing that could change that is if one of his posthumous roles causes him to become truly world-famous, and we might not know that for years. Deb (talk) 07:14, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @Deb (talk) He was already world famous prior to his death. He had a global fanbase, considering the media coverage of him. You admittedly never heard of him. Have you ever Googled him? -Adler1997 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 08:50, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * You're repeating yourself now. Others have explained why this argument is inadequate. Deb (talk) 10:18, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @Deb (talk) No, only YOU have "explained" why the argument was "inadequate", you denied he was mentioned in international publications, then after you were proved wrong you moved the goal post. -Adler1997 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:01, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed. His film and TV career is nowhere near enough to gain him a place on this list, so we're really only talking about the actual impact of his death. Whilst his death itself was covered internationally, that coverage does not appear to have been continued, so I don't believe he merits a place here. 2019_in_the_United_States is sufficient. Black Kite (talk) 14:55, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @Black Kite (talk) It's not a question that he did "nowhere near enough to gain him a place on this list" but rather, that you ignore his career. Of course you'll think he didn't do that much if you don't pay attention to his work he took part in. -Adler1997 (talk)
 * I think we've come to the point where you could benefit from reading Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Deb (talk) 12:33, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @Deb (talk) How come? I'm simply calling out the whole contradiction that most of the people on the list are NOT notable compared to Cameron Boyce but are still on the list and have pictures. To be consistent with YOUR reasoning that Boyce shouldn't be on the list you'll have to purge quite a bit of people already on the list. Finally, you never explained why you moved the goalpost after you were proved wrong on Boyce being mentioned in international publications, you denied he was even brought up on the international level, you had no genuine reply and resorted to the "Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass". You could just say "Oh, I was unaware of his global influence", but you try to shut the whole debate down because you're too embarrassed. -Adler1997 (talk) 3:32 p.m., 20 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately for you, I prefer to follow this advice.Deb (talk) 15:45, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
 * @Deb (talk) And that's fine you don't have to "take the bait". However, that means you're willing to live with advocating in favour of removing notable celebrities from the 2019 death list because you have the no idea who that specific celebrity is. The world isn't the Hive Mind you think it is, but people know people that you might not know. Seems crazy, but it's true! -Adler1997 (talk) 20:12 UTC

., 20 July 2019 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adler1997 (talk • contribs) 20:15, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Looking at this from the outside of specifically discussing it, Deb seems to be coming at this from the "established Wikipedia policy and guidelines" end, whereas you seem to be coming at it from the WP:ILIKEIT end. You're positing his notability relative to others on the list seemingly by how much you think he's done and not citing specific examples of extensive secondary reliable significant coverage he received in life, which other people have looked for and determined to not be extensive enough to have him be high priority for an image in-page. (Further, you asked at Cameron Boyce's talk page about the question this section asks after making several edits here in the discussion, which could look like an attempt at canvassing--it's not always inappropriate to post about a discussion to talk pages of articles it's related to, but you seem to have a clear bias, which can make your motives look more like canvassing.) I don't want to imply new users can't be knowledgable on topics or policy, but it might help you to read up on the guidelines and policy concerning things like notability, sources, and the like, both to understand where other, more experienced editors' arguments are coming from (it's usually not about how they feel about a person! o.o) and to give yourself the knowledge to make good arguments rooted in policy instead of emotionally-coming across like a WP:SPA. (Which I'm not claiming you are, BTW, despite the relative lack of edits elsewhere in your contributions.) Deb cited the pages they did because you seem to be taking the argument in circles.  In regards to the discussion here, as someone who likes Cameron's work (I first saw him on Jessie way back when) and thinks he seemed like a pretty cool person, I still don't think he rises to the level of notability as far as level of coverage while alive (comparative to others on this list) to warrant an image here, so I agree with Deb, Black Kite, et al. - Purplewowies (talk) 22:44, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Cameron Boyce made more news in the United States than possibly everyone else in July barring Ross Perot. Ac130hgunr (talk) 19:46, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The discussion wasn't about whether or not he got sufficient coverage/is relevant enough in the United States . That point would be relevant if this discussion took place on the 2019 in the United States page. Thescrubbythug (talk) 10:56, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

new entry
have expanded entry for 2019 in politics and government; is now a redirect from 2019 in politics. --Sm8900 (talk) 13:06, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Some proposed removals
I propose we remove the following from the Deaths section: Views welcome. Deb (talk) 17:54, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Anandavally - unknown outside the Malayalam film industry (removed)
 * Kumar Bhattacharyya, Baron Bhattacharyya - not even well known in the UK (removed)
 * Carol Emshwiller - author who has won some prizes in the US but appears to have no international following (removed)
 * Fred Malek - unknown outside the US (removed)
 * Rosemary Bryant Mariner - US pilot; okay, maybe she would be internationally known if she had been unique but she was actually one of six recruited at the same time
 * Nechama Rivlin - known in Israel through her husband, and outside Israel not at all
 * Jaime Rosenthal - Minor politician who kept applying to be President of Honduras but never actually was (removed)
 * Sebastiano Tusa - Italian archaeologist and regional politician, with no international notability (removed)
 * Valeria Valeri - Italian actress, no international notability (removed)
 * Izzy Young - Folk musician unknown outside Greenwich Village and Sweden  (removed)
 * Support: None of these seems internationally notable, except maybe Rosemary Bryant Mariner? I'm not sure about her though. The Optimistic One (talk) 00:16, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support removing all of them, would we list every countries version of Mariner? if not, we shouldn't list her because then we're just taking into account USA specific accomplishments. Rivlin is the hardest pick though, because Melania Trump would be on here, but she's a internationally reported on figure and it's proven that other first ladies can become internationally notable like Winnie Madikizela-Mandela so still i think Rivlin does not rise to the ranks. GuzzyG (talk) 00:18, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe keep Nechama Rivlin, but definitely support removing all the rest. Also thoughts on removing Denise Nickerson ? Thescrubbythug (talk) 12:06, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Personally I'd remove Nickerson. Deb (talk) 11:39, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep I'm in favor of keeping Nechama Rivlin and i agree on removing the rest of them. --ThatBaileyLad (talk) 19:29, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

See also section
I would like to add specific links to the articles 2019 in politics and government, and 2019 in science, in the "See Also" section for this entry.

the reason is that these two entries specifically are the main ones that to a large degree parallel the scope and content for this entry; i.e. both of these two articles are timeline articles for 2019, which would also encompass newsworthy events and items that might be considered of general significance.

this is in contrast with other timeline articles for 2019 whose scope and content would not be considered to be primarily focused upon events of world significance; for example, I would not seek to add 2019 in radio, 2019 in art, 2019 in sports, etc etc. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:25, 16 August 2019 (UTC)


 * We dont normally add links to "see also" that have already appeared in the article. MilborneOne (talk) 18:10, 22 August 2019 (UTC)