Talk:2019 Venezuelan blackouts/Archive 1

Electricity blackout request

 * Content moved from Talk:2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:20, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

I hope that we can all agree to wait a until the blackout is over to add the information in the article. It will give us more time for good sources to appear, to know more about its consequence, and most important of all, to known if it has political relevance for the article. A blackout due to faulty care of the electricity system does not mean it has a large relevance to the article, unless proven differently --MaoGo (talk) 13:13, 8 March 2019 (UTC).
 * This blackout was huge, it seems only four states out of 23 didn't suffer from it, but they aren't new in Venezuela. If I recall correctly, last year there was another one in more than half of the country and the electricity crisis started around 2009. I suggest this to be included in the Crisis in Venezuela article, along with the rest of the main blackouts. --Jamez42 (talk) 13:38, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think the Crisis article is the place. Electrical blackouts have become a feature of life in Venezuela and should have a section in that article. Then,  if/when this record blackout becomes part of the Presidential crisis, we can link to that section there for background. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:11, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * By the way, no Venezuelan content at Apagón. (If I were a clever vandal, I would redirect that article to Juan Requesens, since the hearing will again be cancelled.)  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:17, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I am not saying it shouldn't be covered but just let us not make a long paragraph about it unless it has political consequences (like Guaidó showing photos of Maduro taking out the plug from the outlet or Marco Rubio throwing iguanas). --MaoGo (talk) 15:50, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree ... but we can/should expand content at Crisis in Venezuela, or even Shortages in Venezuela, with an Electrical section. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:19, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The Spanish article has its own article about the electricty crisis (Venezuelan electricity crisis), but it currently has a lot of issues, including being outdated. I'll leave it here if someone wants to take a look at it. --Jamez42 (talk) 17:21, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Deputy and medic José Manuel Olivares reported that there have been 79 deaths attributed to the blackout so far. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:49, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok time to update (I guess...). Let us keep it simple. There was a blackout of x number of hours, Maduro blamed the US, Guaido blamed Maduro, 79 deaths in hospitals anything else? Of course sources should back up. Option 2, wait until the second blackout/blackout-that-never-really-ended ends. --MaoGo (talk) 19:34, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Not yet clear that it has ended :( In my opinion, the main impact on this article is the fury en la calle and how that plays out; because of the lack of communication, it could be a while before we have good reports. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:32, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree. But if the blackout extends for 12 more hours, eventually we will have to update because the article is still in Wikipedia main news. Where should El Aissaimi sanctions go? --MaoGo (talk) 20:49, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm ... we don't really have a sanctions section, not sure if we should ??? Maybe in his article for now, and if we later decide we need a whole section, we can figure out where to put it?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:52, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Update before Monday comes? Sadly, the number of information about Venezuela has lowered a lot since the blackout. Unfortunately, I won't be available until Tuesday. -MaoGo (talk) 21:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * We need a section in the Shortages in Venezuela article, and worse ... we need to beef up and deal with the whole background scandal. Work at Derwick Associates came go a grinding halt when it was discovered (by yours truly) that a paid editor was whitewashing it, and the whole energy problem goes back to the Derwick corruption.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Derwick Associates
Here's where it hits: Sandy Georgia (Talk)  23:44, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Derwick Associates
 * http://www.el-nacional.com/noticias/mundo/mundo-espana-investigan-alejandro-betancourt_233653
 * http://www.el-nacional.com/noticias/mundo/mundo-espana-investigan-alejandro-betancourt_233653
 * http://www.el-nacional.com/noticias/mundo/mundo-espana-investigan-alejandro-betancourt_233653

Separate page
Since this is possibly (even likely) not a direct part of the political situation, it's just had an affect, and is pretty serious, I feel it could warrant its own article, like March 2019 Venezuela blackout. We can discuss how this will tie-in to the other forms of internet censorship, etc, or if it doesn't. Kingsif (talk) 01:33, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I am back. Yes this is the best way to go, let us make an article about the blackout. --MaoGo (talk) 10:39, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Is anybody writing a draft? --MaoGo (talk) 12:15, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm planning to start one in the Spanish Wikipedia today. --Jamez42 (talk) 13:30, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, I can help if you want, then we can carefully translate.--MaoGo (talk) 13:34, 12 March 2019 (UTC)


 * https://www.wired.com/story/venezuela-power-outage-black-start/ Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Now we have one: 2019 Venezuelan blackout. --MaoGo (talk) 12:52, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

This subsection: ✅ --MaoGo (talk) 16:24, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Progress in article, translation
I started the lootings and the deaths section in Spanish. I also see that the Portuguese Wikipedia worked on a Causes and Reactions section. --Jamez42 (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * translated the Spanish Kingsif (talk) 03:15, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality and factual accuracy

 * This is the revert in question Sandy Georgia (Talk)  05:23, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I made the following changes to the article which were reverted by. Here's some more rationale for the changes.


 * "Maduro's government" --> "The Venezuelan government". Maduro is only the elected president of Venezuela, not the entire government.
 * "Experts and state-run Corpoelec (Corporación Eléctrica Nacional) sources attribute the blackout to lack of maintenance." --> "Opposition commenters attributed the blackout to lack of maintenance and governmental mismanagement." "Experts" is vague and biased.  Looking at the sources cited seemed to be websites opposing the current Venezuelan government, so I changed it to that, however maybe there is a better way to describe the sources.
 * "administration of Nicolás Maduro" --> "Venezuelan government", see above.
 * "foreign US sabotage" --> "US sabotage", redundant wording.
 * "National Assembly-declared acting president Juan Guaidó" --> "National Assembly leader Juan Guaidó". The former, while technically correct, is cumbersome and somewhat confusing, given the ongoing political struggle in Venezuela.  I think it's best to describe him by his undisputed position as leader of the National Assembly as the exact nature of his position is better covered elsewhere.
 * "experts cited" --> "sources cited", this is just puffery.

Please discuss. 2601:644:1:B7CB:C5AB:F0FE:DD1:A3F2 (talk) 22:30, 16 March 2019 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE --Jamez42 (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for discussion! My reasons for reverting were because it seemed like a POV edit, I imagine you can see why, but thanks for the justification. I'd still say that specifying Maduro or Maduro administration may be useful for the future in this article being a resource, in terms of clarity. I also think that changing "experts and state-run Corpoelec" to "opposition commenters" does have something of a bias - especially since Corpoelec isn't the opposition. "Expert" is weasely, you're right, but the original is IMO a better phrasing. Kingsif (talk) 23:14, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The problem with "Maduro administration" in my opinion is that it seems to imply that the entire Venezuelan government acts in unison according to the will of the president. If Maduro makes a statement himself, then attribute it to him, but if the government issues an official statement then that should be attributed to the government. 2601:644:1:B7CB:53F:31D6:52F7:B329 (talk) 08:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)  WP:SOCKSTRIKE --Jamez42 (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * ?? The definition of administration (government) is literally "government under the named President". It just clarifies we're not talking about Guaido or anyone else. Kingsif (talk) 09:00, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I don't strongly object to "Maduro administration" or "administration of Maduro". "Maduro's government" still smacks of US propaganda which portrays him as an autocratic dictator. 2601:644:1:B7CB:53F:31D6:52F7:B329 (talk) 09:04, 17 March 2019 (UTC)  WP:SOCKSTRIKE --Jamez42 (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I will number the points in the Kingsif revert to original text so that each point can be more easily discussed; please do not chop up my responses, but reference the numbers if desired. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC) Summary: I agree that "foreign US" is redundant, and changed it earlier today. I disagree that any of these other changes are necessary, but recommend nonetheless that the person who wrote the text from Verifikado should use quotes on the "expert" testimony and directly cite Univision. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  06:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 1)  The Venezuelan government attributes the blackout to sabotage. --> Maduro's government attributes the blackout to sabotage.
 * The source says
 * Mr Maduro, who maintains that Mr Guaido is part of a US-backed plot to oust him, tweeted on Saturday that "each act of imperialist aggression will meet an overwhelming response".
 * Venezuelan government officials have blamed the United States for the nationwide blackout and said Mr Guaido collaborated in the alleged sabotage.
 * The two together are "Maduro's government", which is more correct than "Venezuelan government". Venezuelan government is ambiguous in a situation where the head of government AND the legislature AND the Supreme Court are all disputed. We also have multiple sources that attribute the "sabotage" claim directly to Maduro, and we could start piling on extra citations, which would only result in citation overkill, and bring us to the same place. Example: The Guardian-- there are more.  Alternately, the "sabotage" claim can be directly attributed to Tarek Saab, because he is often quoted (but so is Maduro).  But since Tarek Saab is part of Maduro's government, in all three cases, we end up at the same place-- at the correct wording of "Maduro's government", which covers what the preponderance of sources say. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) Opposition commenters attributed the blackout to lack of maintenance and governmental mismanagement. -->  Experts and state-run Corpoelec (Corporación Eléctrica Nacional) sources attribute the blackout to lack of maintenance.
 * See point 6 below. (I would not have cited Verifikado when they are citing Univision: the person who wrote this text might add an additional citation to the original Univision source and directly quote them, but there is nothing wrong with the text and it is true to the sources. There are no "opposition commenters" cited, so the 2601-proposed text appears to be original research, based on 2601's opinion of the websites on which the experts quotes appeared. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) foreign US sabotage (Redundancy has already been corrected, no longer in the article.  Was bugging me, too.)
 * 2) The Venezuelan government blamed US sabotage for the outage; --> The administration of Nicolás Maduro blamed foreign US sabotage for the outage;
 * Same as point 1. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) National Assembly leader Juan Guaidó said ... National Assembly-declared acting president Juan Guaidó said ...
 * IP:2601 says the wording is cumbersome; if something simpler is desired, we could shorten it to just "acting president". When half the world and the Venezuelan Constitution and the legislature and the Supreme Court in exile recognize him as acting president, it would be inaccurate to call him the National Assembly leader in the context of the text here.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) The sources cited rejected the theory that the blackout was caused by sabotage,  --> The experts cited rejected the theory that the blackout was caused by sabotage,
 * Verifikado is checking the reporting from Univision, here. The text clearly references "experts":  "Univision recogió opiniones de expertos resumidas en estos puntos".  The original text from Univision says: "Especialistas venezolanos en el tema eléctrico ... " so it also refers to experts (electrical specialists).  The person who wrote this text might have used the original sources, and should go back and add them in.  Even better, they might directly quote the source so that others won't come along and question the use of the word "expert" or "specialist".  My suggestion is that the person who wrote all of this text should do two things:  a) cite the original sources as well as Verifikado (Univision and El Pitazo), and b) directly quote the portions that 2601 is contesting.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe the Verifikado text was added by . Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:39, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I hope these edits address the "expert" concern. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:53, 17 March 2019 (UTC)


 * IP2601, please do not interrupt someone else's posts, particularly when your post is not correctly formatted and whacks out the numbers I specifically set up for your responses. I have moved your post to the bottom of mine.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  13:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Contrary to American perceptions, the United States is not "half the world". China and Russia have explicitly supported the elected government of Venezuela and only a minority of the world's countries -- primarily the US and its vassals -- have endorsed Guaidó. Furthermore the US-backed government currently exercises little to no day-to-day governmental authority in Venezuela. 2601:644:1:B7CB:53F:31D6:52F7:B329 (talk) 08:50, 17 March 2019 (UTC)  WP:SOCKSTRIKE --Jamez42 (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * "only a minority"? Yes, 64 supporting Guaido at the last count I believe compared to... China, Russia, Cuba? And a few of Maduro's friends? Ok. Numbers and maps are hard to dispute. Kingsif (talk) 08:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * That's correct, 64 countries are only a minority of the approximately 200 countries in the world. 2601:644:1:B7CB:53F:31D6:52F7:B329 (talk) 09:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE --Jamez42 (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I am not getting into a counting contest; reliable sources by the gazillions make it clear that a significant part of the world recognize Guiado as president, and it is not for Wikipedia to dispute that. When I said "half the world", I wasn't referring to counting countries, rather the AP News statement indicating that the world in basically divided into two sides along familiar lines:
 * "familiar geopolitical sides" had formed ... with allies Russia, China, Iran, Syria, and Cuba supporting Maduro, and the US, Canada, and most of Western Europe supporting Juan Guaidó as interim president. (Venezuela crisis: Familiar geopolitical sides take shape)
 * Counting countries on either side, and in the way IP2601 suggests, is absurd. We have an important geopolitical division, and we don't get to ignore that Guaido is recognized as acting president by almost all of the Americas, most of Europe, and more.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:59, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

IP2601
The IP2601 was being abusively used by, with who I've had previous encounters along other editors, and has been blocked for six months. Since the points in the section above seem to have improved. I took the liberty to strike said comments and close the discussion, to keep the talk page tidy. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:47, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Forbes article
Could Venezuela's Power Outage Really Be A Cyber Attack? emijrp (talk) 22:03, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * First, Forbes is not always a reliable source; they use a paid-by-the-hit contributor model. Basically, they have become a font for paid opinion.  Our own article on them explains this.  Second, I gather from the revert by Jamez42 that your summary did not correctly reflect the article conclusions.  Please do not use this source without gaining consensus.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:28, 14 March 2019 (UTC)


 * If you both continue removing sourced statements, I will open an ANI and request a topic ban for you. emijrp (talk) 07:44, 15 March 2019 (UTC)


 * WP:VNOTSUFF. Shouldn't you discuss the changes or offer rebuttals before threatening to ask for a block? --Jamez42 (talk) 07:56, 15 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I have done it before in several articles, and here, and your behaviour is removing the sourced content I add. emijrp (talk) 08:02, 15 March 2019 (UTC)


 * You're generalizing, and if I have removed content before I've done my best for it to be policy based, just like I'm doing currently. As it seems, I'm not the only editor that agrees with this. It's why I think it's easier to discuss such changes. --Jamez42 (talk) 08:08, 15 March 2019 (UTC)


 * If someone is up for a topic ban, it's you emijrp, you've been polluting articles of this crisis with tinfoil hats opinion pieces and straight fake news for far to long. --Oscar_. (talk) 11:56, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Current templates
Thank you for removing (again) another of these dreadful "current" templates. I keep removing them, and they keep coming back. They are an unnecessary eyesore on articles that are hardly being edited. I wish people would stop adding them. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  17:22, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Update before Monday
I'm sorry, I was expecting to publish this hours before. I will focus mainly in the effects of the blackout:


 * Cacerolazos reported throughout Caracas.
 * Flight from Bogotá returned because of blackout. International airlines are forced to start the flights without passengers, and passengers are stranded in Maiquetía's airport.
 * Caracas Metro and Valles del Tuy train suspended services.
 * Public transport, already affected by the lack of spare pieces, collapsed. Many people were seen walking long distances to go to work or get home.
 * Soccer match between Lara and Emelec of the Copa Libertadores was suspended.
 * Netblocks reports that the biggest Internet disruption of Latin America was registered and that 96% of communications are out. The blackout affects phone coverage as well.
 * Blackout made impossible the delivery of corpses in the Bello Monte morgue. The Caracas morgue is collapsed.
 * Since debit cards can't be used and there are shortages of cash bills in bolívares, many people are buying with dollars or euros.
 * Director of Codevida reports that 95% of the dialysis units are closed.
 * The blackout affected Roraima, in Brazil.
 * The Venezuelan diaspora loses contact with their relatives and friends.
 * In Maracaibo people sleeps in the streets because of the blackout (I didn't quite understand the wording of this event, further reading is needed)
 * Colectivos move around Caracas' main avenues with assault weapons.
 * Explosion in Sidor station in the Bolívar state
 * Radio Nacional Venezuela is off air after its fuel reserve runs out
 * Journalists of El Pitazo that covered progovernment marcha are robbed
 * CORPOLEC worker detained by the SEBIN is found dead.

Details on the deaths: (besides the ones specified above)


 * Deputy María Hernández: 15 children have died in Maturín (9 March)
 * José Manuel Olivares: Two deaths, one in the JM de los Ríos and another one in the Magallanes de Catia (9 March)
 * Premature baby dies in the Pérez Carreño Hospital (9 March)
 * Two deaths in Maracaibo (9 March)
 * Daughter denounces that her mother died in the University Hospital (9 March)
 * El Nacional: Médicos Por La Salud confirmed 17 deaths (10 March)
 * 13 deaths confirmed in Maturín's hospital (10 March)
 * El Pitazo: Six deaths in Acarigua-Araure hospital (10 March)
 * Codevida: 15 deaths of dialysis patients (10 March)
 * Nohemí Oliveros is the fifth renal patient to die in the JM de los Ríos in 2019 (note that this includes 2019, it should be confimed if the death was because of the blackout) (10 March)

As a sidenote, policemen retired from yesterday's protest. A timeline on where the electricity has been restored and/or has been lost again should be included. ORC Consultores published a map regarding the status, but I can't find the link. --Jamez42 (talk) 00:42, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, those policeman simply regrouped a few blocks later. I think the main thrust should be the long-standing corruption and other issues plaguing the electric industry (see below).  Are you thinking of putting this content at Crisis in Venezuela or Shortages in Venezuela?  My preference is a section on Electricity at the Shortages article, with the idea that it might eventually have its own article.  The corruption and inefficiency that has plagued the electric industry since Chavez nationalized it deserves its own article-- even more so now it has turned even more deadly.  I don't think we should treat that topic in the presidential crisis articles per se. The Derwick situation has been under discussion since, what, 2009?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  00:47, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I understand the same, as well as that Guaido's scaffold was removed by the police and that there was repression. I would prefer to start a new article, and with almost five days now with a blackout I think there's enough material to create its own article. I'll make updates about 12 March: --Jamez42 (talk) 07:34, 12 March 2019 (UTC)


 * National Assembly approved state of alarm, suspending oil supply to Cuba
 * PDVSA suspends oil shippings due to the massive blackouts
 * Classes and work suspended until Thursday
 * Butcheries lower meat and poultry prices to prevent losses
 * Ice bags cost as high as 6$
 * Consecomercio registers ware losses due to lack of refrigeration. Fedecámaras warns that shortages will only worsen during the blackout.
 * Venezuelans' food rots. Fuel shortages.
 * Maracaibo church suspends eucharistics this Sunday
 * Alcasa is militarized and closed after remaining inoperative.
 * Efecto Cocuyo: Prisoners are left incommunicated, without food or water.
 * Caracas Metro and train remain inoperative
 * San Antonio de los Altos transformer explodes, cables fall on a ambulatory
 * Ecoanalítica estimates losses are as high as 875 million dollars
 * United Nations delegation starts working on Venezuela during blackout under strict security measures
 * National Guardsmen prevent food from being taken acrossed the border

Protests
 * Children in the J.M. de los Ríos shout "There is no food" from the windows of the hospital. The hospital doesn't have water nor electricity. I remember reading that one time colectivos also surrounded the building.
 * Colectivos and FAES official disperse protests with live ammunition
 * Colectivos fire against protesters in Zulia
 * El Paraíso residents protest
 * Sucre Avenue blocked by protesters
 * Protest in the Gran Mariscal de Ayacucho highway
 * Reporte Ya: R Repression in the Libertador avenue of Barquisimeto
 * Protests in Valles del Tuy
 * Protests in the Monagas state during rain
 * Journalist that reported repression in Carabobo state attacked by the National Guard
 * Protesters burn down National Police offices in Táchira state
 * Pedraza municipality town hall in Barinas is burned down

Lootings
 * Nationwide lootings
 * Attempt to loot shopping mall La Pirámide in Caracas
 * 50 arrests after looking of supermarket in the Baruta municipality
 * Supermarket in La Florida urbanization looted
 * Neighbors of San Martín, Caracas, tried to scare off looters
 * Lootings in the Zulia state. In Maracaibo, a bakery was looted downtown after throwing a tear has cannister. La Curva de Molina food business was looted as well
 * Some businesses looted in Barcelona on Saturday night
 * Denounces of lootings carried out by Zulia state policemen. --Jamez42 (talk) 13:30, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Arrests and disappearances


 * SNTP: Journalist Luis Carlos Díaz is reported dissapeared
 * El Pitazo: Corpoelec worked reported dissapeared in Puerto Ordaz. Witnesses report he was intercepted and taken away in a gray van
 * Former mayor Lorenzo Rondón briefly detained
 * Foro Penal reports 22 arrests during blackout protests

Airlines


 * Air Europe crew is nearly robbed in Caracas. The airline decided that the crew would sleep in the Dominican Republic afterwards
 * El Estímulo: Iberia cancels flight to Caracas on Monday and Tuesday
 * Trinidad and Tobago airline suspends flights to Venezuela
 * Copa Airlines allowed only boarding of passengers with hand luggage due to the lack of X-rays
 * Maiquetía airport suffers from blackout, flights rescheduled
 * Migratory processes made manually

Water scarcity
 * People of Caracas wait in line to collect the water that flows down the Ávila
 * People of Caracas gather contaminated sewer water from the Guaire river and Los Caobos fountain
 * People gathers water from the Tuy rivers
 * Lines in Baruta and Los Teques to fill recipients with water
 * In Lara people takes baths in sewers due to the lack of water and electricity
 * Valencia has long lines of people for water and fuel

Details on deaths:
 * José Manuel Olivares confirms at least 24 deaths
 * El Nacional: Dismissed claim of 296 deaths in Maracaibo
 * Efecto Cocuyo: 86 years old man died from a skull fracture after falling in Lara during the blackout
 * Francisco Valencia (CODEVIDA) reports 17 deaths of patients that did not receive dialysis since the Wednesday


 * Lima Group declaration. https://www.sumarium.es/2019/03/10/grupo-de-lima-responsabiliza-exclusivamente-a-maduro-del-colapso-del-sistema-electrico/ Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:04, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
 * La Concresa substation blew up (La Ciudadela, near Terrazas del Club Hipico). Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  13:54, 11 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Important, article started in Spanish. News left to be included. --Jamez42 (talk) 19:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Second arrest
, I can't find any mention of an arrest other than the journalist Diaz. As far as I have been able to determine, only TASS is making this claim. Who is the second arrest? If there is no other source, I believe we should just remove this. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  16:27, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I found another reference to the two arrests in a Bloomberg article (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-12/venezuelan-police-arrest-prominent-journalist-as-he-cycles-home). These seem to in addition to the arrest of a journalist. The article says "Hours after Diaz’s arrest, Maduro said that two people who committed a cyber attack on the electric system had been captured". Burrobert (talk) 01:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Could be this one: https://www.lapatilla.com/2019/03/17/marlyn-acosta-edelca-corpoelec/  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  07:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Possibly. The other articles didn’t give names so we can’t know for certain. Burrobert (talk) 07:48, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Merge needed
I hate sticking merge tags on articles-- wonder what others think before doing so. We have: neither of which is ever likely to be developed. I suggest we can merge Zulia energy collapse into the broader Energy crisis in Venezuela. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:24, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Energy crisis in Venezuela and
 * Zulia energy collapse


 * I am against merging this page. The sabotage is being investigated and more info will be available soon probably, it needs its own article. We have seen how the "humanitarian aid" trucks weren't burnt by Maduro but by the opposition (The New York Times), and how the 2018 August drone attack was a real assassination attempt (CNN). It won't take long to know who is involved this sabotage. emijrp (talk) 22:12, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Did you read the post? It is not about "merging this page" at all; it is about the two other articles, one of which could be merged into the other.   please read. (Ignoring your strange conclusions about unrelated articles.) Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:32, 14 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Then move this discussion to that pages. This is about 2019 Venezuelan power grid sabotage. emijrp (talk) 08:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is about the blackout—which is unlikely to have a clearly defined end. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  04:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)


 * WP:CRYSTAL. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:36, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Source dump

 * China offer help to Venezuela to restore power (Reuters)
 * Guaido under investigation for sabotage of power grid (The Guardian)
 * Running out of food, power, cash, in Venezuela (BBC)
 * Survival in blackout (The Guardian)
 * Blackout causes 21 deaths (The Guardian)
 * 'A city of shadows' (The Guardian)
 * Kingsif (talk) 15:26, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I am moving to the article and converting to citation templates. As we write :)  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:33, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
 * All now in External links; please name them when moving them in to content. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:50, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I have moved most of the sources in, with named refs, but I have not expanded text per those sources-- they need to be mined for content. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:17, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

This could open a Causes section: --MaoGo (talk) 16:06, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Venezuela blackout: what caused it and what happens next? (Guardian)

, please do not create citations that need to be cleaned up-- ADD DATES !!! Sandy Georgia (Talk)  16:16, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I thought access date was preferred, for retrieving archive, which I included? And date mentioned in text? Kingsif (talk) 16:29, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
 * So here's my point: the article is new, why leave cleanup needs?  Please add complete, correct, and consistent citations from the get-go.  That means a) respecting the date system in use when the article was created, b) adding a publisher, date and author, as well as accessdate, and c) for gosh sake, name the refs for reuse without those miserable parentheses, colons and quote marks.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:38, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Another decent source here:
 * Más de una década de corrupción e improvisación dejan a Venezuela a oscuras ZiaLater ( talk ) 15:38, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll work on that one.   Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:42, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Bump Las 120 horas que apagaron a Venezuela (Infografía) (Efecto Cocuyo). --Jamez42 (talk) 18:36, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * that's gone, can't find it. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:54, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I see the URL was changes, here it is again. --Jamez42 (talk) 18:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * PD: I think Efecto Cocuyo published more infographics, including one of the hours of electricity by day and by state. Love it! --Jamez42 (talk) 18:16, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:52, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Sky News today, re vandalism in Maracaibo Kingsif (talk) 19:03, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

More on Maracaibo
This source could help to add more detail/reliability to the happenings in Maracaibo during the blackout:
 * 'Horror, fear, despair': Venezuela's oil capital shattered by 'tsunami' of violent looting (The Guardian, 26 March) --MaoGo (talk) 10:11, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Are we keeping the article Zulia energy collapse? If so, I think we should develop in-depth there, and briefly summarize back to here.  Or are we merging Zulia energy collapse to energy crisis in Venezuela?  Until I understand how we are going to structure these articles, I am avoiding developing Zulia-only content.  16:59, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Comparison to Cuba
My impression from media reports is: The economic situation in Venezuela is worse than it is in Cuba even though Cuba has a more extreme form of socialism. Is this correct? If so, then how is it possible? That is, what else is worse in Venezuela which is causing this situation? JRSpriggs (talk) 07:53, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * My take on the question is that the alarming situation in Venezuela is the speed of decay. Imagine that 10-20 years from now, Chile goes into Zimbabwean living standards, that would surely make the news. This is what is happening in Venezuela, it passed from being one of the more stable, democratic, and rich countries in South America to one having the largest inflation in the world, a lot of food and health issues, and a significant emigration problem compared to the rest of the continent (The Economist says Caracas is the cheapest city in 2019 for somebody with foreign currency, normally Damascus,Syria or cities in war were in this place). If Chad tomorrow reports publicly that there are malnourished children all over the nation, not every media would care because it is not news, in Venezuela the situation seems to be getting worse every time. Anyway  this is WP:NOTFORUM and Wikipedia is not media. You should be able to read the rest of articles and draw your own conclusions. --MaoGo (talk) 08:56, 27 March 2019 (UTC)


 * One of the reasons that Cuba has managed to stabilize is because of the favorable trade relations with Venezuela. When the Soviet Union dissolved, Cuba entered its Special Period and started to improve when Chávez was elected. During Chávez presidency, Cuba has received at least three times more income than it did from the USSR. If I'm not mistaken, this was equivalent to at least 20 Marshall Plans. The corruption and the crime isn't as widespread as in Venezuela either. MaoGo makes a good point pointing out the democratic system that had place in Venezuela before, which in part is also the reason why there is so much political unrest unlike Cuba. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:51, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Summary of points that are missing
Here is a list of mayor points that I think have yet to be developed: I hope this helps.--MaoGo (talk) 14:30, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Transportation (subway, airport, others)
 * Internet censorship see Economía venezolana pierde 400 millones de dólares diarios por censura de Internet (Efecto Cocuyo) ,
 * Economic impact (oil production stopped)
 * Protests
 * More background
 * One or two lines to discuss the 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis.
 * One or two lines in 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis to discuss the blackout.
 * Education
 * Yes, this important info underdeveloped; meanwhile, excess detail in other areas. This is an encyclopedia, not a daily news report! We don't need street addresses for looting, and the name of every minor official in the country., what do you think should be said about the presidential crisis in this article?  I can work on that part, but am not sure what you are after ... Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * surely the problem is that the blackout has still not ended. We can wait, but it does not seem like there is going to be definite transition. Maybe just add some political implications like Guaidó investigation and plans to reopen the way for oil companies(?) . Again a line or two won't harm, but I have not been able to do it either, more suggestions are welcome. --MaoGo (talk) 14:51, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * We have that they are investigating Guaido, but the source above about PDVSA doesn't really go into the blackout; without getting synthy, I am not sure yet what else can be said. But something will come up for sure!  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:55, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * You are right. My only concern is that the presidential crisis in the one been displayed in Wikipedia's mainpage and not the blackout. --MaoGo (talk) 15:03, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * For now, I think we have it covered. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:09, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Censorship and news
Let us also add: to the list. --MaoGo (talk) 14:23, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Information and news ( El apagón también fue informativo Espacio Público)

Now that a section head has been added I can be more specific: --MaoGo (talk) 14:46, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Education (schools were closed, this should appear somewhere)
 * Airports (flights were stopped and X-ray scans were unavailable)
 * Information and news ( El apagón también fue informativo Espacio Público)
 * Protest(?)
 * More economic losses estimates (?)

I do not know how to look for the airports informations, Caracas Chronicles published some personal stories about it: Airport, Unplugged. There has to be an article about airport&blackout in some reliable source.--MaoGo (talk) 08:55, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

return of the blackout
Sputnik advises that Caracas was again without power on 18 March. Take that as you will Kingsif (talk) 01:36, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Caracas is always without power, and now that's going to get worse; we will sometime have to take up and deal with this and move over to Energy crisis in Venezuela. Twenty years of neglect aren't fixed in a year.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  04:02, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I can certify that. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah most media gave up on the coverage when most of Caracas got electricity, but even after that the problems continue with stations blowing up and zones (even in Caracas) that have inconsistent supply of electricity still. Also, I cannot tell if water supply situation is getting worse or it was already very bad weeks before the blackout. --MaoGo (talk) 20:09, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks like the film company Trasnocho Cultural only just got power back on 23 March Kingsif (talk) 09:38, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Today there is an on-going blackout in Caracas, let us see what happens. Se registra apagón en varias zonas de la Gran Caracas y Miranda(El Nacional) --MaoGo (talk) 18:32, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * (Reuters) --MaoGo (talk) 18:33, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think I read a source saying it affected about 80% of the country. The Caracas Metro is not working currently. --Jamez42 (talk) 19:16, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I do not have percentages but it affects many parts of the country, not only Caracas . --MaoGo (talk) 19:36, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 16 states out of 23/24, if I'm not mistaken. --Jamez42 (talk) 19:45, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Netblocks reports 57%. --MaoGo (talk) 19:55, 25 March 2019 (UTC)


 * "La falla eléctrica se produjo en la línea San Jerónimo - La Horqueta - La Arenosa afectando Guárico, Carabobo y Aragua, informaron fuentes de Corpoelec. El apagón en el resto del país responde a la sobrecarga del resto de las subestaciones. El apagón tiene relación con la inestabilidad del servicio eléctrico tras la falla ocurrida el pasado 7 de marzo. El incidente ocurrió en la misma línea 765 KV que viene de la represa El Guri." - HispanoPost. I'm terribly sorry that I can't translate currently. --Jamez42 (talk) 22:51, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * "The electric fault comes from the San Jeronimo - La Horqueta - La Arenosa line (cable network), affecting Guarico, Carabobo, and Aragua, according to sources from Corpoelec. The blackout in the rest of the country is from the overload of the rest of the substations. The blackout is related to the instability of the electric service after the fault that occurred on March 7th. The incident occurred on the same 765 KV line from the El Guri reservoir." Kingsif (talk) 15:35, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * BBC reports two "major power cuts", which are causing blackouts across the country. BBC. Kingsif (talk) 16:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I was on the road yesterday, and am just now catching up; I've got a list :) Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:50, 26 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I was about to add information regarding deaths, but I wanted to make sure the news were confirmed since there were debunked claims during the first blackout. Ten deaths in the Hospital Universitario were dismissed. Doctor Julio Castro provided an overview of the situation in hospitals. --Jamez42 (talk) 18:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I think waiting to be sure is a good idea, . I have never figured out how we ended up with 25 Pemon dead over on the Shipping article, when most sources say four.  I wish someone would sort that out; I have never seen any indications of 25 dead Pemon.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  19:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think that what the article says is that some deputy said 25 Pemon killed: El Universal source. This El Pais source also claims 25 dead but does not indicate Pemon. Maybe there was some misunderstanding (?). --MaoGo (talk) 20:50, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Mostly this. Deputy Guzamana is one of the indigenous representatives in the Assembly and he assured that he personally saw that amount of deaths; the thing is that at the time not all of the bodies were identified, so they were hoping to identify them to announce the complete list of names. Meanwhile, Foro Penal accounted a more conservative figure, but because they were deaths that were individually verified by the organization. They admitted the number could be bigger. In any case, I think the most important thing is to stick with the smaller amount, and if another estimate comes from a reliable source, it could be mentioned to, discussing it here if needed. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:45, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Update
Any update on the second blackout?? there is a couple of articles from Reuters and Guardian that could be useful but I was waiting to see if any new info was published today. I am not sure that everything ended yesterday.--MaoGo (talk) 15:40, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I understand that electricity has been "restored" with the same results as the first blackout: the supply is still unstable in several states and there are many where rationing is being applied, including Caracas, where there usually isn't. --Jamez42 (talk) 15:52, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * PD: I've heard/read experts saying that this situation will just continue because the system is overwhelmed with the demand. --Jamez42 (talk) 15:54, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes ... I don't believe there is going to be an "end" of the blackouts; that is why I had named the section "Ongoing". Counting them makes no sense ... how do we say when one ended and the next began?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:42, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I was bold and changed the "Ongoing" section title to "Second blackout". I think it's better to state the blackout is "over", like the first one was, leaving clear that now and then it continues to be interruption. If there's another nationwide blackout (let's say, over 80% of the territory is affected), we can include it's information, and so on. Médicos por la Salud has accounted four deaths attributed to the second blackout. --Jamez42 (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I also prefer second blackout. Most articles are calling it like that. But of course if this continues we could just call the section "sequels". --MaoGo (talk) 19:29, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
 * aaaaand it seems there's a third national blackout. --Jamez42 (talk) 00:31, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Just wow! Why do people call this third blackout if it is just the same/next day the other one ended?--MaoGo (talk) 11:27, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * As I keep saying, it is likely to be continuous and ongoing, so that counting them is not going to work. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:26, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The importance depends on the magnitude, this blackout happened at once affecting most states, while when a blackout "ends" there's still interrupted electricity; these latter power outages occur individually in each municipality or neighborhood, even if they're widespread. --Jamez42 (talk) 14:20, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

I restructured the lead to cover the recurring nature of blackouts and info about second and third, and moved some "reaction" text to the reaction section. I think that's all for now? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:23, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry I have been busy today. The call for protests during the 2nd-3rd blackout was called before what it states in the article, I think, I can update that later with the news articles of the actual protest. Also the whole "Operación Libertad" is missing. --MaoGo (talk) 00:07, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Protests April
So the protest of 6+ April are on-going and are partially manifested against the blackouts. were should we cover today protests? There has to be a limit of protests that we can cover here. Also the whole "Operacion Libertad" seems to go more into the 2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis picture (even if we do not know still what is the plan and how it is going to play). --MaoGo (talk) 20:31, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I am in favor for size reasons of developing protest text in the protest article, with perhaps a one-sentence summary back to here in reactions ... I could see adding it here if they had torn down Corpoelec or something like that! I am hoping I can focus on adding all the new sources over at crisis in Venezuela over the next few days. There is so much to be done there, so I do not expect to be able to help a lot on protests.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:58, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh sure, I forgot completely about the protest article. Now I get what we have it. I will try to update it accordingly. If I we update it properly we should link it with the main article. --MaoGo (talk) 14:07, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

More estimates

 * Blackouts savage Venezuela's already tattered economy--MaoGo (talk) 23:54, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I am taking a break from my huge sandbox task of adding the HRW report, so will look at this one now. Tired of reading bad health news :( Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  23:58, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks I saw the F24 article when leaving the house. Nice work also with the HRW report! It is hard, crisis article are not very spirit lifting.--MaoGo (talk) 07:58, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

More estimates Chevron
Bloomberg gives more estimates of losses due to blackout Chevron's Biggest Venezuela Oil Venture Hit Hard by Outages.--MaoGo (talk) 11:59, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

The Venezuelan electrical system is totally disconnected from the internet, really? Any pictures of the burnt power lines? If their system was so antiquated, then a "brain drain" shouldn't have been of any relevance. 2601:181:8301:4510:4416:F814:179B:9EF9 (talk) 01:58, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Please have a look at WP:NOTAFORUM. Also you can learn more about the faulty logic behind the idea that a complex and dated analog system does not require the expertise of highly qualified technicians by reading the numerous high quality sources in the article.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  02:42, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

oil problems unresolved
Two of Venezuela's four crude upgraders still shuttered after blackout: document--MaoGo (talk) 20:54, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Brand new blackout
Let's see if it lasts. Nuevo corte de electricidad deja a oscuras varias partes de Venezuela (Reuters).--MaoGo (talk) 07:22, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Does anyone have time to research and add:
 * Latest blackout reduced internet usage to 10% (apagon redujo a 10% la conectividad a Internet en Venezuela- Netblocks)
 * Cortes de electricidad en Zulia ahora seran de 12 horas diaras- NTN24 (Zulia state moved to 12 hours daily power cuts under rationing)
 * Elpitazo Mas de 20 estados del pais se quedaron nuevamente sin electricidad (the source above indicated less-- now have 20 states)
 * Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:10, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Al Jazeera also says at least 20 states Kingsif (talk) 16:42, 10 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Since I am not fluent in Spanish, let me ask this for the sake of clarity. When you say "... this blackout occurred after the announcement of a rationing plan", do you mean that places were blacked out at times when they should have had power under the rationing plan? We should say yes or no to this in the article. JRSpriggs (talk) 20:41, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The blackout occurred even after power was supposedly rationed, implying that rationing did not resolve the situation. I am always afraid to use the word even because it gets POV-y ... does the change I made address your concern?  Also, it got more complicated (see above); they seem to have admitted the rationing plan wasn't enough, as Zulia has now gone to 12 hours daily rationing.  I was out all morning and haven't gotten to this yet, and am hoping someone else will !  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

✅ I am just now getting back to this, and it looks like everything mentioned above is done. But we have huge lists up at the top of the talk page ... Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:00, 11 April 2019 (UTC)