Talk:2020–21 snooker season

Calendar For 2020/21 Season
The calendar for the first half of the 2020/21 season has been released, nine events to take place before the end of 2020.

https://wst.tv/nine-events-before-christmas-as-world-snooker-tour-announces-provisional-calendar/

NOTE: A THIRD Championship League will now take place in 2020, after the 2019-20 edition that finished in March, and the second one that took place in June. The next one, will be played in 3 legs from September-October 2020, and will be a FULL RANKING event for ALL players on tour. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:1AE4:D658:2142:1B18:2E82:C9EA (talk) 09:20, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed - see WT:SNOOKER. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:10, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Challenge Tour rebranding to Q Tour
The "Challenge Tour" is no more, as it's being rebranded as the "Q Tour" for the upcoming 2020/21 season, with a new structure. All instances of "Challenge Tour" should be changed to "Q Tour".

https://wpbsa.com/wpbsa-q-tour-launched/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:1AE4:D658:2142:1B18:2E82:C9EA (talk) 13:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That's fine, but we don't really have much info for that yet. There are only two instances of the term on this page, with no events, so probably a little early be playing with it. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:12, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Page for 2020 World Seniors Championship
The draw for the 2020 World Seniors Championship took place today on BBC, for the event later this month. So the page would have enough information to be created. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:1AE4:D658:91A8:8590:F57E:AD04 (talk) 16:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's had enough info for an article for a while. It's on my to do list. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:53, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

2021 Seniors Irish Masters
This event was added to the calendar for March 2021, but the page itself could also be created with the draw: http://www.snooker.org/res/index.asp?event=867 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:1AE4:D658:8FF:497B:3471:5B4E (talk) 12:07, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * We generally need more than just a draw. The article needs to pass WP:GNG before we can create it. Is there many sources for this one (I haven't had time to check)? Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:11, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I've added the tournament to the Calendar as it has been scheduled to take place according to the Seniors Snooker website (https://seniorsnooker.com/wss-calendar/) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steveflan (talk • contribs) 16:27, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

What are we naming tournaments that are taking place twice in 2020?
The ranking Championship League starts in 1 week (and the draws for the groups have already taken place), and the European Masters starts in 2 weeks. Are we seriously naming these events "2020 Championship League (2)" and "2020 European Masters (2)"? I like Lee Vilenski's suggestion from the Project Snooker page, of a disambigator by month. So, 2020 Championship League (June) and 2020 Championship League (September-October), and 2020 European Masters (January) and 2020 European Masters (September), etc. There's been no further discussion of this issue on the Project Snooker page since 3rd August 2020.


 * They are called "European Masters 2020 (2)" and "Championship League Snooker 2020 (2)" by WST.--219.79.94.208 (talk) 12:19, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Is that what their sponsors, snooker media, and the TV channels they'll air on, call them, though? How would one differentiate them in an oral conversation (including TV commentators), besides a "2" in parentheses?
 * Quite frankly we don't know. If that is how they are to be disambiguated then we must follow suit. I think it's safe to let them begin the coverage and we'll get an answer. It's a shame as I thought the month disambig was a decent way to handle it. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:39, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Masters vs The Masters
Hi all, there seems to be an edit war over the implementation of the Masters event, and if it should be "The Masters" or just "Masters". The argument for retaining "The Masters" is that is what we have on other articles. Personally, I think this should just be Masters, as this is the official name for the event. Creating this topic to discuss, and edit on previous articles if neccesary. and pinging and  who have been involved (I can't ping the IP, and it is changing, so a message probably won't work either. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski  (talk • contribs) 22:17, 19 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree that we should use the official name of the tournament here also. The only argument made for “The Masters” is consistency. And while consistency is important, it is more important to have it right. Otherwise nothing would ever improve. When going for consistency, you change the incorrect entries, not the correct ones. Two wrongs doesn’t make a right. And when going for consistency, I guess the name in the calendar and e.g. this infobox should be the same. Mrloop (talk) 06:30, 20 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Btw; I made the same adjustment on the Masters (snooker) page. Mrloop (talk) 06:39, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
 * For me "inconsistent" with previous seasons is not a reason to revert improvements. The IP's insistence that it must be kept consistent, despite it being pointed out that it's wrong, is borderline disruptive. It should be changed to "masters" (without "the") is correct and the corresponding change must therefore be made. SSSB (talk) 08:27, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I prefer just "Masters". Generally in text we say "the Masters" not "The Masters". The main article is called "Masters (snooker)". Nigej (talk) 12:41, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Well I don't prefer Masters. The event is called "The Masters" 92.251.205.176 (talk) 18:07, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * In that case you should be proposing that Masters (snooker) is renamed The Masters (snooker). And presumably next year's event is to be called the "2021 The Masters". Nigej (talk) 18:20, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I think that's the most persuasive argument, that you would call the tournament the "2021 Masters", and not "2021 The Masters". I've seen enough "O'Sullivan won his seventh Masters title", or "Hunter won his third Masters title in four years", etc. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:25, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * And I think there is also less weight to the "The Masters" argument since "The Masters" is a redirect to the golf event. How can the snooker event be "THE Masters" when everyone knows that "THE Masters" is the golf event. From that point of view "The Masters (snooker)" makes little sense. Nigej (talk) 18:54, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Use of "The Masters" in reliable sources is almost non-existent unless starting a sentence; common usage is "Masters" or "the Masters" (little "t"). There is no reason not to follow that lead. wjematherplease leave a message... 21:55, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Our opinions do not matter. However World Snooker's does. The WST who are responsible for the running and administrating of Snooker's professional events on the main tour, call the tournament "The Masters". There are two very clear references added to show this. 178.167.236.248 (talk) 19:56, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Two links does not a WP:COMMONNAME make. Here's a link (among many) from WST calling it simply masters. It simply isn't the common name for the event, and your repeated changes to articles outside of consensus here is getting disruptive Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:18, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * However WST is quite inconsistent: see: https://wst.tv/tickets/2021-wst-masters/ "2021 WST MASTERS" not "2021 WST THE MASTERS" or https://wst.tv/category/masters-news/ "BINGHAM CLAIMS MAIDEN MASTERS TITLE" not "... THE MASTERS TITLE" or https://wst.tv/2021-masters-tickets-on-sale-from-sunday/ "2021 MASTERS TICKETS ON SALE NOW" not "2021 THE MASTERS ..." Anyway, we don't necessarily have to follow WST anyway. see WP:THE: "If the definite or indefinite article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the Wikipedia article name. Otherwise, do not ..." Seems to me that it is not generally "capitalized in running text" (see eg https://wst.tv/bingham-claims-maiden-masters-title/ "Basildon’s 43-year-old Bingham is now the oldest ever winner of the Masters, ..." - lower case "the") - so I'm still in the "do not" category. Nigej (talk) 20:19, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Or see Masters (snooker) where we use "the Masters" in running text. So per WP:THE we should not have "The" as part of the article name. Nigej (talk) 20:23, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Woodlandscaley: "Regarding the Women's events - they're an integral part of the snooker calendar and are and should be included."
INTEGRAL??? In what way are the women's amateur events INTERGRAL to the professional event calendar? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:1AE4:D658:C08E:BB58:61CB:C2E6 (talk) 11:31, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Personally I don't see the women's events as any different to the masters events. Either both in or both out, in my view. The article is called "2020–21 snooker season". I know that someone (perhaps you) has added the word "professional" to the lead recently but we could just as easily change that to "important". Nigej (talk) 12:26, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Why don't we include all forms of amateur events then? World and National, from all governing snooker bodies? The word "professional" to the lead? It's been included in previous snooker seasons, too. Not only are women's event non-professional events, I disagree on calling them "important".
 * I don't know much about it but I'm assuming the women's event have prize money - so they're"professional" in that sense. If we're using the word "professional" to mean those on the main tour, then it seems to me that neither the masters or the women are "professional". Or are all the "masters" on the main tour? Nigej (talk) 17:45, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe the women's World Championship has a top prize of only £6,000 for the winner, compared to the professional World Championship's top prize of £500,000. And I don't think the women's World Championship (or any women's event) is televised. They're not important or integral events to the snooker calendar. Secondly, in what context are you using "masters" here? What do you mean "are all the "masters" on the main tour?" There's professional events that use the word "masters" in the title, and senior events that use the word.
 * Sorry I meant "seniors" not "masters". Nigej (talk) 06:52, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * This article is about the snooker season, this isn't an article on the 2020-21 world snooker tour (which would be a better title if it is only going to be the specific tour.) Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:19, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, my point being, if we're going to include the women's events, (which are very basic events with little prize money and hardly televised), then we should include stuff like the IBSF World Snooker Championship (and Under-21, Under-18, Under-16), the EBSA European Snooker Championship (and Under-21, Under-18), the ACBS Asian Snooker Championship (and Under-21), the ABSF African Snooker Championships, the Oceanian Snooker Championship, the WSF Championship (and Seniors), and the WSF Open (and Under-17). Unlike the women's events, winning some of those actually gets the winner a two-year tour card for the professional tour, so they're much more important than the women's events. Thanks.
 * I'm still not clear why the senior events are more important than the ones you quote. I'm also still unclear why the seniors events are "professional" but the women's event aren't. Nigej (talk) 06:55, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I never said they were? I don't care about the senior events. I certainly never said they were "professional" events, so I don't know why you keep implying that I did. My issue is including the women's events. If this isn't just a calendar for the professional World Snooker Tour, (including OR not including the Q Tour and World Seniors Tour), then we should list ALL IBSF, EBSA, ABSF, WSF, etc. events as well as the women's events. How big do you want to make this calendar? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:1AE4:D658:DDD4:88D7:D308:DDC5 (talk) 12:45, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Isn't that a bit presumptive? The women's events don't carry tour cards for the winners because they have their own tour. We are incredibly tour heavy (for good reason), so it needs to be established what the scope is for this (and previous) articles. I see it as either:


 * an article on the 2020-21 World Snooker Tour which would be just for the Tour events, with mentions for qualifying events and a summary of the season? This would mean other events, amateur, women's and seniors wouldn't be added, but would be somewhere like 2020 in cue sports.
 * an article on the 2020-21 snooker season, including all notable events but highlighting those that are professional.
 * This might get a better understanding of what we should be including going forward Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:03, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Generally I want to make it smaller not bigger. If the seniors events are not "professional" and the article relates to "professional" events we seem agreed that they should be removed. World Seniors Tour has a nice list of these events anyway and I don't see why World Women's Snooker shouldn't have such a list too. Nigej (talk) 19:13, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

World ranking points - 2020 Championship League (2)
Listed as £20,000 for the winner, but the winner will receive £33,000 in total AND the matching ranking points, the runner-up £23,000, £11,000 for runner-up in the final group but not making the play-off final, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:1AE4:D658:C08E:BB58:61CB:C2E6 (talk) 11:40, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That's true, since only group winners advance to the next stage. If you think that the article is unclear and could be clarified, feel free to add some text. Nigej (talk) 12:34, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Impossible currently, as Lee Vilenski has protected the page.
 * Make a request on the talk page (in the approved style). Nigej (talk) 19:19, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * User Woodlandscaley is reverting my edits to incorrect amounts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:1AE4:D658:2507:AD6A:30D4:AD64 (talk) 20:41, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * If a player wins the first two stages, they make it to the last 8 (two groups of 4), if they finish in 4th place in that last group, they're QF and win £8,000. Same for a player finishing in 2nd place in the last group, they've made it to the final 4, a SF, and win £11,000. It's easy math. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:1AE4:D658:4C32:2C6A:8F89:7FEB (talk) 14:03, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

What about 3rd place in the final group? Those 2 players both win a total of £9,000. They're neither semi-finalists or quarter-finalists. Where's that figure in your table? What about the 2nd group-stage players who win a total of £5,000? Not in your table. Or the players who win £1,000 from the first group-stage? Again, not represented in your table - which is a justifiable reason for it to 'go'.

Your disruptive 'editing' on this page is becoming tiresome. Woodlandscaley (talk) 15:46, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The constant edit wars is getting a bit much. If we continue to get nowhere, we can protect the page once again. Personally, I think a note on this particular event as the event isn't a straight knockout. We care about the ranking points on offer, but unlikely to fit in ideally with the table. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:02, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Propose deleting the "Champions by country" table
I propose that we delete the "Champions by country" table within the "Statistics of ranking tournaments" and the same table in the 4 previous seasons. Seems to me that the table lacks any interest. Summarising the nationality of the winners for such a small number of tournaments (about 20) really says nothing. In addition, the ranking events are individual events; players do not represent a country, so producing a pseudo medal-table is inappropriate anyway. Nigej (talk) 17:44, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree. We should only present information that is relevant and/or routinely reported. This is neither. wjematherplease leave a message... 17:48, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
 * perpectual remove all this statistic CRUFT. It's not something reliable sources talk about at all. At best it is OR.Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:57, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree. I don't see what the relevance of this table is. Steveflan (talk) 16:22, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

There is clear agreement that these tables should be deleted. Nigej (talk) 21:49, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Tour Championship article
Unfortunately I don't know how to create a stub article for snooker pages without messing up something (having tried to copy/paste some text from another page and being lost by the amount of categories and templates used), can someone make the 2021 Tour Championship page since its not been made? Will need seeding list and venue location, which has now been confirmed by WST. --CitroenLover (talk) 23:05, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I can take a look later today. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:55, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Gibraltar Open "venue"
We know its taking place at Milton Keynes, but according to an anonymous IP user, its in the Ballroom at Stadium MK (this seems to be an assumption made on the basis that on the Live Scoring website, it says "Stadium MK"). However, as per WST, its referenced as being played at the usual venue of the Marshall Arena. Which source is correct, or is it just the scoring site using "alternative names" to refer to the same venue? --CitroenLover (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * So the sources such as sporting life and snooker.org also suggest Marshall Arena, so we should go with that for now. Sadly, I have seen this on the broadcast as being advertised as being in the ballroom, so I have no idea on the specifics. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:01, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Checking the website, I'd suggest it was rather difficult to fit a 128 tournament into a room of that size, so it's likely to me that it's in the Marshall Arena. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:04, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thought as much. Only the CL has been in the Ballroom since its just 2 tables, but 4 tables or more? Unlikely to be there. Thanks for checking!! --CitroenLover (talk) 14:29, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No issue. I mean it's possible it is being played in both, considering it's the same complex (I was under the impression that the Hendry match was advertised as being in the Ballroom). From a logistical POV this would make sense, the tables aren't being removed, why not just use all the tables on site? We should, however, just say what the sources say, which is predominantly Marshal Arena. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:45, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * To the IP user who keeps saying commentators have allegedly said "Ballroom Stadium MK": those same commentators have also said "thanks for joining us from the Marshall Arena". Most sources say the Marshall Arena, and the live scoring site just says Stadium MK and does not specifically refer to the Ballroom at all: Stadium MK could also easily be referring to the Marshall Arena because the MA is part of the Stadium MK complex (its just a separate building which is joined to the Stadium MK).
 * Additionally, the images you see prior to matches starting are just videos captured using a drone from back in June when the Championship League was run as the first sporting event to return from lockdown. Its just generic footage which has been used many times across the season and is not in fact, live content. --CitroenLover (talk) 14:31, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Next season
With the World Championships the only tournament left of this season, I feel like having a placeholder stub article for the next season would be useful. Unfortunately, WST hasn't released any information about players on circuit, tournaments that will run and when the season will actually begin, so I'm not sure if the page will contribute anything to the wiki if its created prior to the Worlds? --CitroenLover (talk) 15:12, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I tend to think that we are ok to create articles on the individual events so long as we have official dates and venues for the event. I can't see why a season article would be different. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:44, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * See WP:REDDEAL which says that the red link is better, until there is some real information. Remember that we're not in a beauty contest and it perfectly ok to leave red links around, even though some folk think they look untidy. Nigej (talk) 15:45, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. @Nigej my intent of creating the article was not to get rid of a red link, but to prepare for potential announcements that are undoubtedly going to start showing up from next week (as next week is the qualifiers so we'll likely have some preliminary info prior to the main tournament start). --CitroenLover (talk) 19:44, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * As the date and other details about next years Masters are now up, I've created 2022 Masters, and would suggest that when a provisional calendar is created, then a page for the season would be suitable. That does seem to be a reoccuring thing, and normally comes out this time of year, (The last few years, we've created the season article in March (2018), April (2019, 2020) and June (2021). This article is the outlier, as the season finished so late in the year. I'm to expect a provisional calendar to be created very soon by WST Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:19, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

2021 Seniors World Championship
This page could be created? They've announced the 16 players, and the draw took place today on the BBC.
 * What happened to the page for this event? It was created, but is now red-linked again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:1AE4:D658:A06E:E74F:415E:F307 (talk) 23:07, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It was moved to Draft:2021 World Seniors Championship. Nigej (talk) 06:42, 1 May 2021 (UTC)