Talk:2021 IIHF World Championship

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group seeding
Has there been any mention of why Russia and Canada were swapped. I know that the organizer can do that, curious why though.18abruce (talk) 19:54, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The ref says "The seeding for the groups is based on the IIHF Sport Regulations and the 2020 IIHF Men’s World Ranking, which takes into consideration the results in World Championships and Olympics during the last four years, with one horizontal swap to accommodate special organizational needs." So i guess that was the reason? Kante4 (talk) 19:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes I think so, but usually there is some practical reason for the 'horizontal swap'. Usually has something to do with selling tickets but I don't see any clear rationale for this one.18abruce (talk) 20:14, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Appears to be a practical decision. Russians do not have to get travel visas to go to Belarus, Canadians have an easier time getting travel visas to Latvia.18abruce (talk) 12:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks for the heads up. Kante4 (talk) 13:54, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Relegation
The article speaks of two teams being relegated but, as there is no Division I tournament in 2021, who would be promoted in their stead? Is the relegation information still current or outdated? Calistemon (talk) 03:50, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
 * No new info has come out but i would believe that no team will be relegated. Kante4 (talk) 09:04, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Controversy regarding location
Ravenswing has removed over 3000 characters worth of source referenced content discussing how the location of the Championships is controversial. His argument is that it dwarves other content. I don't know what other content he proposes to put into an article about an event that hasn't yet taken place. All the content is not irrelevant as has been duly explained for him (if reading the content was not enough), this is a politicized debate which there is ample reason to discuss. Rene Frasel the president of IIHF has done a public Q&A online where he answers very detailed questions about the situation in Belarus and IIHF's stand. Do the facts around the reason for why the event is hosted in Belarus, and why that is controversial not belong in the article about the event? But rather which article? Jabbi (talk) 17:41, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I think that what is currently displayed is enough, but I think the addition of comments from the Latvian organizers would be of value.18abruce (talk) 17:50, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Okay. What then about the fact that the Swiss Hockey Federation sees reason to issue two public statements, one saying "The political situation in Belarus has put a lot of pressure on the IIHF to reverse their decision regarding Belarus. Pictures of IIHF president René Fasel hugging Belarus president Aleksander Lukaschenko, which were released today, have now put fuel into the fire." Does that meet your relevancy criteria? Jabbi (talk) 17:53, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You REALLY need to read WP:SOAPBOX and WP:UNDUE. Wikipedia is not for political advocacy, concerning Belarus or anywhere else. This encyclopedia isn't for "discussing" the hot button political issues of the day -- be they "highly politicized" or not -- but to report neutrally.  If you are having problems imagining what could possibly go into such an article, it is the matter of a couple of clicks to review some of the previous years' competitions to see. That being said, it is not that I don't understand what you are saying.  It is that I do not agree with what you are saying.  The distinction should not be difficult to grasp.   Ravenswing      18:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Ravenswing So you are saying the fact that the president of the Belarusian Ice Hockey Federation received a travel ban to the co-hosting country of this championship because of his alleged involvement in a killing incident is irrelevant? So what are relevant facts according to you?--KastusK (talk) 19:01, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Ravenswing Why do you delete well-sourced information from the article including statements by the European Parliament, the Latvian Prime Minister and or the German Foreign Minister without giving a reason? How is the statement "We will do everything possible for the world championship to take place in Minsk. We will make every effort.” by Fasel more relevant acccording to you than the statement of the Prime Minister of the country which is going to co-host this event?--KastusK (talk) 12:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
 * KastusK, I can't help it if you are willfully not listening to what the other editors are saying. WP:SOAPBOX and WP:Advocacy hold that Wikipedia cannot be used for promotion of a political stance or other advocacy. WP:UNDUE holds that Wikipedia articles cannot be swamped with information beyond proportion to the prominence of that aspect of the article.  Those are the reasons. You need fish for no others.  It is enough to say something along the lines of "Several politicians and entities are protesting the hosting in the wake of  ongoing protests against the Belarusian government , and hang several sources off of that sentence.  It is over the top to include a paragraph on every entity that does so, however well sourced.  This protest is not more important than the event itself.   Ravenswing      12:27, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Alright, I have added this sentence. Thanks for the proposal. However I can still not understand how it might be irrelevant that the Prime Minister of the co-hosting country declares that "he cannot see how Latvia can co-host with Belarus". It is not just some politician but the head of government of the country which is able to decide whether it wants to host the event or not.--KastusK (talk) 12:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Mm, apologies; we seem to have crossed paths on a rewrite. I've combined it using a couple of your cites and some from a previous version Jabbi put up.   Ravenswing      12:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Reasons for controversy
As far as I can tell, there are two main reasons for it being controversial to co-host the Championships in Belarus:


 * 1) The unstable political situation in the country due to the 2020-21 Belarusian protests which started because of fraudulent elections of Lukashenko in the autumn of 2020.
 * 2) Lukashenko is an idiot who has made light of covid and is not trusted to ensure proper safety in terms of covid-hygiene.

In addition to this,
 * 1) Belarus Ice Hockey Association President Dmitry Baskov is alleged to have been personally involved in the well publicized murder of a Belarusian protestor. (IIHF has issued a formal statement explicitly mentioning its concern about this )
 * 2) Lukashenko has prisoned professional athletes for protesting and has stripped them of representing Belarus officially in their field of sport, which is of course a violation of their human rights and is not seen well by organisations of professional athletes

It is clearly within the scope of this article to explore these circumstances in fair detail. I find this December 4 news article to give a very good overview of what's at stake here.

Jabbi (talk) 01:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Naming actors under controversy
User:Ravenswing, you have greatly simplified the context of the controversy to "In the wake of the ongoing 2020–2021 Belarusian protests and the human rights violations by Belarusian authorities, several political groups, politicians and international entities have protested tournament matches being held in Belarus, and have called for Belarus to be stripped of co-hosting duties." while putting forward accusations of me and another user of having a political agenda. I do not think it is productive to debate those accusations but rather just focus on the objective facts of the matter.

I am content that we are aiming for a compromise and in that spirit I am suggesting a more accurate paragraph.

I take particular issue with: "several political groups, politicians and international entities"

This is vague.

This diminishes the severity of the issue.


 * 1) The International Olympic Committee has issued a ban against the National Olympic Committee of Belarus that: "Exclude[s] the currently elected members of the Executive Board of the NOC of Belarus from all IOC events and activities, including the Olympic Games. This includes in particular Mr Alexander Lukashenko, in his capacity as NOC President and legal representative of the NOC; Mr Viktor Lukashenko, in his capacity as NOC First Vice-President and the person responsible for the NOC’s operations and activities on a daily basis; and Mr Dmitry Baskov, in his capacity as an NOC Executive Board member and in view of the specific allegations raised against him."  Lukashenko and Baskov, the head of ice hockey in Belarus, are specifically named. In other words, probably the best known sports entity in the world views Lukashenko and Baskov as standing for values that are incompatible with fundamental principles of the Olympic Charter. This must weigh heavily in how both IIHF approaches the matter.
 * 2) the European Parliament adopted a resolution back in September 2020 asking "the national ice hockey federations of the EU Member States and all other democratic countries to urge the International Ice Hockey Federation (IIHF) to withdraw its decision to hold the 2021 World Ice Hockey Championship partially in Belarus until the situation and, in particular, the state of human rights in the country have improved;"  and 51 members of the European Parliament signed a letter sent to the IIHF to "[Fasel] of the values of the IIHF and demand the withdrawal of the 2021 IIHF Championship from Lukashenka’s Belarus."
 * 3) Co-hosting government's Latvian prime minister Krisjanis Karins says: "I want to say clearly that, seeing what is happening in Belarus, where peaceful protesters have been demanding fair and open elections, but the only reaction of the authorities is brutal repressions, I do not see it possible for Minsk to host the championship,"  And Latvian foreign minister, Edgars Rinkēvičs, has backed this
 * 4) The Danish Ice Hockey Federation has said it is opposed to Belarus hosting the championship  and has offered to replace Belarus
 * 5) The Swiss Ice Hockey Federation has issued a statement stressing it's safety concerns and stressing that hosting in Switzerland is not an option (which indicates discussions of the possibility)
 * 6) Heiko Maas, the foreign minister of Germany, has tweeted that ["anyone who is serious about solidarity with Belarus cannot seriously want to hold an Ice Hockey World Championship in this situation. It would be the greatest PR gift for Lukashenko and a devastating signal to the demonstators. I hope the organizers realize that."  Indicating very strong opposition to Belarus hosting the championships from what is arguably the most powerful country in Europe. Also, why has this quote been remove from the article User:Ravenswing?
 * 7) Although Fasel himself says "The first option remains to have a World Championship in Minsk and Riga 2021, under the conditions outlined by the IIHF. There are no other options being considered at this time." he also admits "We have received proposals from Denmark and we are in discussions with Slovakia."  So moving the championship from Minsk is clearly an option.
 * 8) Championships sponsors Nivea and Skoda have now said they will withdraw sponsorship if it goes ahead in Minsk  Skoda is a main sponsor.

I understand that you are enthusiastic about the sport aspect of ice hockey, which is all good and well. But this particular sports events has political significance, this article is where this content belongs because these are properties of the event, it's just that it holds further significance than it should under normal circumstances. Consider the Football War a brief war fought during and named after the 1970 FIFA World Cup qualification, it is very briefly mentioned under the content on the actual qualification because it merits independent coverage. We can't do that in this case so it has to go under event content. Jabbi (talk) 17:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I also agree that the statement of the Latvian Prime Minister as well as the refusal of Nivea and Skoda to sponsor the event are relevant facts which should definitely mentioned in the article.--KastusK (talk) 20:15, 16 January 2021 (UTC)


 * First off, Jabbi, you were the first one to ascribe "agendas" to people who disagree with you. You do not now get to complain when people suspect that you have a POV-laden agenda.  But beyond that, I've stated my position repeatedly: however lengthy your arguments, however many quotes you dredge up, Wikipedia policy forbids you from turning this or any other article into a lengthy "All the reasons why Lukashenko sucks" polemic.  Period.  Throwing another half-dozen quotes into the mix does not change Wikipedia policy, and certainly not my mind.   Ravenswing      00:24, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

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Russian Flag Issue
The tournament is under IIHF guidelines. The IIHF uses the official Russian flag on their website as well as the "RUS" abbreviation, whereas Wikipedia uses the Olympic flag for the Russian Ice Hockey something or other, in a tournament that has nothing to do with the Olympics. Here's the website: https://www.iihf.com/en/events/2021/wm Can someone either explain why that's the case, or change the flag to the Russian Flag? 47.144.159.125 (talk) 21:39, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Well.....Russia is not allowed to use their flag or anthem in any World Championship this year or next. I believe that the flag that is in use is based on what a report in TASS said it would be.  The IIHF website being behind should not be a surprise to anyone. Wikipedia's entry should definitely still link to their national hockey team though.18abruce (talk) 22:24, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * However, since the only source for groupings, group rankings, match results, player performance, and every other piece of statistics on this page is from iihf.com, we have to use same notations as the source(which uses "RUS" or "Russia" with the flag of Russian Federation) this includes their website and official PDFs published by IIHF. Modifying information form the source to fit any other criteria (be it decisions of WADA of IOC) would be editorialization, and against Wikipedia rules. If anyone thinks that IIHF doesn't follow the proper procedures from IOC, WADA or any other organization, they should contact IIHF about it, however, as long as IIHF is used as a source for the information on this page, the notation of the IIHF should be preserved.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.150.94.102 (talk) 00:53, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If you have watched the games you would have noticed that the IIHF is using 'ROC' and the flag icon that we are using. They have gone out of their way to be ambiguous on their website, so an informed discussion, that takes into account all information is what should be done. That is what is below.18abruce (talk) 03:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Good point, really wish Russia would redesign the flag for the World Championship though, it looks like someone getting high and is quite ironic. That said the Ice Hockey Federation of Russia links to Russia the country, whereas it should link to Russia's National Hockey Team. 47.144.159.125 (talk) 23:29, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Started fixing the links, sorry if I miss any.18abruce (talk) 22:30, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for politely and informatively answering my question and for fixing the links. Don't worry, I'll let you know if you missed any! 47.144.159.125 (talk) 08:24, 27 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Since the flag issue has gone nuts on this page, maybe look here. They cannot use the Russian flag at the event, the team is to be called ROC, anything else?18abruce (talk) 17:57, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I would agree but in the pdf documents and official site it's just Russia... Kante4 (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Referred to as Russia, but officially competing as ROC due to ban. In the games, only ROC is used, jersey with ROC emblem is used, and Russian national anthem is replaced with Chaikovsky's music. Website explains this in detail. Mellk (talk) 18:08, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes you are right Kante, but it appears to be similar to the IIHF disqualifying the women's team in the 2014 Olympics; the IIHF said it, but their pdfs and encyclopedias did not agree until 2019. It is quite clear that Russia cannot use their flag at any world championship, and the IIHF has stated that ROC is to be used, so we should.18abruce (talk) 18:15, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yup, like i said i agree with you. But i get why people get confused, as the IIHF itself is. Kante4 (talk) 18:22, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It is totally understandable to be confused; even their youtube highlight packages say "Russia" with the Russian flag. The men's curling started out with a mix of using "russia" but then even the broadcasters were informed that they had to use "RCF" a couple of days into the competition.  I actually expected more of the opposite here, people arguing that it should not be linked to the Russian men's team or something.18abruce (talk) 18:30, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * ROC is really just Russian team but with restrictions added, so it is referred to as Russia to avoid confusion where possible, however the IIHF use ROC officially and where they are forced to use it as part of ruling. Mellk (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Logo
Can someone make like low resolution fair use SVG file of the logo, I tried but Wikimedia Commons, but Wikimedia keeps telling me Found href to unsafe data: URI target'. —Pewdiepie12321 (talk) 12:52, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Germany, Canada, Latvia order in group?
Currently, they have all 9 points and are in order: Germany, Canada, Latvia. The info under table says: " Rules for classification: 1) points; 2) head-to-head points; 3) head-to-head goal difference; 4) head-to-head number of goals scored; 5) result against closest best-ranked team outside tied teams; 6) result against second-best ranked team outside tied teams; 7) seeding before tournament. " So, let's follow these: 1) all have same, 2) Germany 3 Canada 0 Latvia 3, 3) Germany +2 Canada -4 Latvia +2, 4) Germany 3 Canada 1 Latvia 2 So, according to these rules, I get: 4 Germany 5 Latvia 6 Canada. When tied in overall points Canada should always be behind Germany and Latvia because they lost to both of them. They seem to be ranked by overall goal difference, but that's not what the rules say. 109.240.202.49 (talk) 02:40, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * When there is a multiple team tie, and all h2h games are not played, the IIHF ranks them by goal differential. I can't say whether that is right or wrong.18abruce (talk) 10:35, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The official Rules have an Exception: "[...] in the case three [...] teams are tied and not all mutual games have been played [...] Highest Goal Differential [...]". Source: https://www.iihf.com/en/statichub/4719/rules-and-regulations (first PDF, Page 21)
 * Thank you, thought it was there, could not remember where.18abruce (talk) 17:11, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Statistics
The section 2021 IIHF World Championship is now completely broken - since the Template:Ihicon is being condidered from deletion. (The table is basically unreadable, the most place is taken by the announcement that this template is considered for deletion.) Can something else be used instead - at least until this is resolved? --Kompik (talk) 15:08, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I hope that the discussion will be closed rather sooner than later. Until then, i don't know... Kante4 (talk) 15:23, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

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