Talk:2021 Kabul airlift/Archive 1

Name of general evacuation most 'Allies Refuge' : it has none?
WP:BOLDLY copied from Talk:Operation Allies Refuge'' Buckshot06 (talk) 05:47, 26 August 2021 (UTC) Operation Allies Refuge was originally "to support the relocation (flights) of interested and eligible Afghan nationals and their immediate families who supported the U.S. Government and applied for a Special Immigrant Visa (SIV)." However, since the Fall of Kabul, focus has shifted and the page has essentially become an article about the general US evacuation. The question is, has "Operation Allies Refuge" officially changed and expanded to include the general evacuation?

According to my Google search, the vast majority of the time "Operation Allies Refuge" is used to refer to the original operation to relocate Afghan nationals, and rarely used to refer to, or when discussing, the general evacuation. However, I did find several times where it does seem to be used to refer to general evacuation:

"Operation Allies Refuge is facilitating the quick, safe evacuation of U.S. citizens, Special Immigrant Visa applicants and other at-risk Afghans from Afghanistan."

"A U.S. Air Force C-17 Globemaster III, assigned to the 816th Expeditionary Airlift Squadron, flies to Hamid Karzai International Airport (HKIA), Afghanistan, in support of Operation Allies Refuge, Aug. 17, 2021. The Department of Defense is committed to supporting the U.S. State Department in the departure of U.S. and allied civilian personnel from Afghanistan, and to evacuate Afghan allies safely."

"U.S. Soldiers, assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division, arrive to provide security in support of Operation Allies Refuge at Hamid Karzai International Airport in Kabul" - Caption of image from Aug. 20 2021

This usage from the State Department Spokesperson may be indicative one way or the other, but not sure: "...we have dramatically increased capacity over recent days. And this, of course, is capacity that is on top of Operation Allies Refuge, which we launched in the middle of last month to begin the airlift operation for a segment of the SIV population... mid-last month announced the launch of Operation Allies Refuge, and this was the effort to bring – actually bring to this country SIV applicants who had completed a certain stage of the security vetting process. That effort is now very much still underway, although in a different form..."

If creating a new article, it should probably be a general article on the Kabul Airport evacuations of all countries, or perhaps better yet, reactions to the fall of Kabul (which I've been considering anyway given how long the Fall of Kabul article is getting).Yaakovaryeh (talk) 02:44, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Has the usage changed, either officially or colloquially?
 * If only one of these is true, which should be followed?
 * If the operation now includes the general evacuation, should there be an indication that it changed?
 * If the general evacuation is not part of the operation, changes should be made?
 * Some possibilities may include: rename the article, create a new one, transfer content to Fall of Kabul (2021), etc..
 * No. A post on Twitter in the last few days indicated that the new, second, post-SIV operation was unnamed at the time. I may be able to find that again, but (a) would only prove a negative at the time; and (b) editors are being snippy about using Twitter as a reference. Secondly, Reactions to the 2021 Fall of Kabul has already been created, and has been nominated for deletion (Articles for deletion/Reactions to the 2021 Fall of Kabul). Buckshot06 (talk) 04:27, 23 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Of course a random post on Twitter is not a reliable source. Was is based on anything?Yaakovaryeh (talk) 05:15, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think you fully understand. Journalists write stories, yes; but they also post on Twitter just like everyone else, and data comes out that way before they submit the stories to editors (who may or may not approve them for publishing). See for example Clarissa Ward, a CNN correspondent who tweeted from beside the runway three days ago "Soldiers by the runway at Kabul airport tell me that there are 10,000 people here processed and ready to go… but nowhere to fly them to because Qatar is refusing to accept more Afghans because they’ve reached capacity. “It’s abysmal… someone needs to step up.” . Al Jazeera today indirectly confirmed the problems with backups in places like Qatar, as well as the Washington Post. So yes, very much so they can be "based on something." WP needs to at some point reevaluate its reliable sources rulings based upon the identity of some people posting on Twitter, who are the sources of the newspaper articles we accept as reliable sources (!!) Buckshot06 (talk) 05:26, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Move to "2021 Kabul Airport evacuation"
The current title is misleading as it implies the entire country is being evacuated (as in, it will ultimately contain zero people) this is evidently not the case. A more precise title is required and given that Kabul Airport is the only place where evacuations are occurring this is the best I can think of. Buttons0603 (talk) 21:11, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Strong support for swift name change The article title is very misleading. It implies to a global audience that all of the country is being evacuated. Also it makes the date dubious: Depending on who you ask, an evacuation from Afghanistan had already began in February 2020 by the US Military, so the perception of an "evacuation of Afghanistan" only beginning on August 15th 2021 is misleading. We should strongly narrow the scope of the article title, to either 2021 Kabul airlift or simply the Kabul airlift. I was going to Boldly change it on my own initiative but decided to reach a consensus first. RopeTricks (talk) 00:23, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment When I originally moved the article from 2021 Western evacuation of Afghanistan to 2021 evacuation of Afghanistan I realised I also needed to change "of" to "from." I did not however do so at the time. I have now remedied that mistake. Regards to all. Buckshot06 (talk) 06:56, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 27 August 2021
2021 evacuation from Afghanistan → Evacuation of Afghanistan – There is only one apparent evacuation of Afghanistan. No need to have the "2021" there. Paul Vaurie (talk) 00:18, 27 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Or simply Kabul airlift. For similar reasons stated in an above discussion. "2021 evacuation of Afghanistan" is way too general and is misleading. RopeTricks (talk) 00:30, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Evacuation of Afghanistan as failing WP:RECOGNIZABILITY; people have evacuated Afghanistan many times in the past, such as when the Soviets invaded. I'm open to other options though. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:15, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose there's also the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. Super   Ψ   Dro  10:07, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Evacuation of Afghanistan as failing WP:RECOGNIZABILITY and per Super Dromaeosaurus; The year is a simple clarifier until/unless a commonname prevails. Pincrete (talk) 10:54, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose The name is more descriptive, as there were many withdrawals from Afghanistan undertaken by many militaries.
 * Oppose For many of the same reasons posted above, namely that it is more descriptive and that previous evacuations have occurred in the past (though perhaps not as evident). The title also is inclusive of the whole evacuation of Afghanistan as members of the coalition force (including contractors) have been stationed throughout Afghanistan. These factors also support WP:CRITERIA as the title is recognizable, precise and concise in nature. Jurisdicta (talk) 14:59, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

What
Why does it say Ogust, the grammar is not proper. Youthoughtyougotmyip (talk) 16:18, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Is this vandalism Youthoughtyougotmyip (talk) 16:19, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Uppercase E
Shouldn't the E in the title be uppercase ?Maxime12346 (talk) 17:18, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Why? Neutralitytalk 17:53, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No, because it's not a proper noun. Jim Michael (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Question
Does anyone here know if the evacuation operation of Romania has any specific name? Super  Ψ   Dro  09:09, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Exodus via land routes
If there's no change to the article title, I suggest including content on the land exodus before the fall of Kabul:
 * In July 2021, at least 30,000 Afghan refugees crossed land borders, mostly illegally every week. Many trekked through Iran to enter Turkey, however border guards at Turkey are preventing entry into the country.
 * Iran had set up camps in bracing themselves for the influx of refugees from Afghanistan.
 * Pakistan has been preventing entry of Afghan through land border checkpoints, and has largely fenced up the 2,600km land border between the two countries.
 * Tajikistan and Uzbekistan had a couple of thousand Afghans crossing their borders. Some are Afghan army soldiers.
 * Talibans are letting those with valid visas to use the official border crossings.

– robertsky (talk) 12:37, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Total numbers of nations involved
The article needs an overview table, give numbers for all nations involved: number of planes, number of flights, number of people transported.--2A02:8109:BD40:65C4:C4DF:4CB5:BCE8:A01E (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC)