Talk:2021 Meron crowd crush/Archive 1

Name of the article
Why isn't it called the Meron Stampede or the Mount Meron Stampede? GoldenPenny (talk) 04:48, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed that it needs a better name. &#124; MK17b &#124;  (talk)  04:49, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Also it's not really a stampede. Abductive  (reasoning) 06:04, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * So far, 60% of the article references call it a stampede. WWGB (talk) 06:15, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Is there yet a common name for this disaster? Jim Michael (talk) 06:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Seeing both "Israel stampede" and "Israel crush", though admittedly those are mostly Western sources – I figure most Israeli sources will use more local names. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 07:25, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * "Israeli crush" sounds like a Middle Eastern citrus drink. WWGB (talk) 07:28, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * That, or Natalie Portman. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 07:30, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest Mount Meron Stampede, or Mount Meron Disaster. there isn't a clear name yet, but its a far more descriptive name that still falls in line with references to the event Totalstgamer (talk) 07:45, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * As there was at least one prior event with multiple casualties - a collapsed roof in 1911 - I'll suggest keeping the year 2021 in the page name. why do you advise not calling this a stampede? -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:55, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I meant the replacement of "Israel Stampede" with the date remaining, i should've been clearer, that's roughly what should happen Totalstgamer (talk) 07:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The page name in the Hebrew WP, whose readers are largely Israeli and mostly Jews due to the language demographics, is highly localized. In English, it means: "The disaster at the celebration of Rabbi Simeon Bar Yochai (2021)" - understood to its readers with no need to mention "grave of" "Mount Meron" and "holiday of Lag Ba'Omer", and even who among the Jewish population were attending. The EN WP needs to take some of this into account in naming the page. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:10, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * That's right, and personally, I think the title is fine as is. Even if we were to change to "Mount Meron stampede" we would still need the year per 1911. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 08:16, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * We no longer need the year, because the disaster a century ago wasn't a stampede. Jim Michael (talk) 09:50, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The title should be 2021 Meron stampede. The incident occurred in the city of Meron, Israel (see coordinates at tomb of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai) not on Mount Meron. -  Eugεn  S¡m¡on  09:53, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Why would the year be needed in the title? Jim Michael (talk) 10:17, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Because another disaster took place in 1911, at least according to both this article and Mount Meron's article Totalstgamer (talk) 10:34, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It's not necessary, allow me to correct myself, the previous event was not a stampede Totalstgamer (talk) 10:36, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Crush is terrible. Hopefully this will never happen again, so maybe we don't need the year in the title. Maybe its to graphic for the title to call it a stampede? How about the Lag B'Omer Meron disaster as the title?  Unless the 1911 roof cave-in event also happened on Lag B'Omer, then we do need the year 2021. DaringDonna (talk) 14:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * We do not use euphemisms for the sole reason of the correct term being "graphic". See MOS:EUPHEMISM. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 17:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Just going to point out, that (AP News) & (Reuters) calls it a stampede. In school & on the Internet, it is fairly well known that both of those are the top 2 neutral and most trustworthy sources. If both are saying stampede, then Wikipedia should also be saying stampede. No one can change my mind on that, since they would be arguing against the two most reliable and neutral sources in the world for news. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:18, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * BBC and CNN both used "crush", so it's not like "stampede" is universal. Also, it should be Mount Meron crowd crush (or Mount Meron stampede). Meron is a town, which is separate from Mount Meron. The event took place on the mountain, not in the town 98.210.182.206 (talk) 23:24, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Despite the word used by the news media, "crush" is less accurate of a word to describe what happened than the word "stampede". "Stampede" is defined by one source as "a mass movement of people at a common impulse" (see https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stampede) which seems to accurately describe what occurred. "Crush" is defined by the same source as "to squeeze together into a mass" (https://www.merriamwebster.com/dictionary/crush). I would support the changing of the article to replace "crush" with "stampeded". Also, Reuters used the word "stampede" to describe the tragic event "Medical teams worked on Friday to identify 45 people crushed to death in a stampede" (see https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/dozens-hurt-disastrous-crush-israeli-bonfire-festival-2021-04-29/). The word "crush" is used in a way in the article that supports changing the title of the article. Jurisdicta (talk) 04:46, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

A crush, not a stampede
The event was clearly a crowd crush, not a stampede as such. As it's described as a stampede in some sources (others correctly say "crush") Wikipedia supports the word, but I expect that "stampede" will fall out of use for this. For now I'd suggest that the title of the article should contain "crowd crush" rather than "stampede" (whether Israel or Meron). I'd expect the body eventually to be modified to indicate a crush as more reports come out. Pol098 (talk) 13:36, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Let's wait this out for a bit. Currently, most sources describe it as a stampede, although I do see a movement towards "crush". But no reason to rush before a new WP:COMMONNAME can be established with relative certainty. JBchrch (talk) 13:45, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I expect consensus may be to wait, but ultimately this should be done (FWIW my opinion is to change the title now). Indicative: Google finds about 300,000, and 1,500,000  (and some of the "stampedes" may be early reports, later corrected).  (Added later): The descriptions clearly describe a crush, possibly triggered by people falling on stairs (and initial, incorrect, reports talked of a stand collapsing; clearly even that is not a stampede). True stampedes don't kill many people; crushes kill many, by compressive asphyxiation not trampling. But of course what matters for Wikipedia is the wording of sources. Pol098 (talk) 13:54, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This is being discussed at Main Page/Errors. Pol098 (talk) 15:06, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * A practical reason (which can't really be applied to Wikipedia, not an advice manual) to use "crush" rather than "stampede": on reading about a terrible case (article: 2015 Hajj stampede) and looking into what happened, it was obviously a compression-asphyxiating slow crush, not a running-about trampling stampede. I use news to inform my own actions; what I learnt from this was not "don't run around in a crowd", but "if in a crowd you have people in contact with you on all 4 sides (density ≥ 4/sq.m), move as best you can to the side and out". I told all my family members this. I edited the stampede article with information from reliable sources. Pol098 (talk) 15:25, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd suggest Mount Meron crowd crush as the title; "crush" without "crowd" seems a bit vague. Pol098 (talk) 15:44, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Someone had changed it now to "2021 Meron stampede". While stampede is now in the title, the lead sentence still calls it a crowd crush. They should be consistent.  See  below about the various title changes to date.—Bagumba (talk) 16:45, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Page title combinations
The page is currently on it's fourth title (2021 Meron stampede). The combinations have included:
 * Year: Include 2021 or not
 * Location: Israel, Mount Meron, or Meron
 * Incident type: Stampede or crush

Please discuss, if needed.—Bagumba (talk) 16:23, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Re "crush" or "stampede": let's wait to see what develops rather than worry too much now and keep changing. I think "stampede" is just wrong, and prefer "crowd crush" as it's more explicit, but if its description in later sources once its known how it happened settles on "stampede", so be it. There is a clear tendency to blame crowds for crushes (speaking of panic and stampeding, which proper studies find do not happen), where the cause is bad organisation and control. There are sources, academic and news, in the stampede article. [I don't have a strong opinion on year and location; and they don't need to wait.] Pol098 (talk) 16:56, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I would lean towards including the year. As I argued at Talk:2021_Hualien_train_derailment, I think most single-event articles should do so, even where it violates WP:CONCISE. More important is to call it either crush or crowd crush though, so I certainly favour 's new title over the previous one. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 17:30, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There's no need for the year. It's a high-profile, well-known event whose current title has no ambiguity. Jim Michael (talk) 17:44, 30 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Mention year there was a similar crowd crush in 1911 when the railing break, mentioning the year is indicating that is somewhat a repeat event. Sokuya (talk) 20:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Does the 1911 event have a Wikipedia entry? — hueman1 ( talk •  contributions ) 05:57, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * , In Hebrew Wikipedia it does, here's link. Sokuya (talk) 07:48, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I can't read that (even with Google Translate on because it's still written right-to-left) but do you think it's worth translating here? — hueman1 ( talk •  contributions ) 08:23, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, yes it's worth translation. Sokuya (talk) 08:26, 1 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Mention year as per above. 98.210.182.206 (talk) 00:03, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Why? The 1911 disaster at the same location wasn't a stampede or crowd crush, so there's no ambiguity. Jim Michael (talk) 08:35, 1 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Mount Meron, not Meron - those are separate places. 98.210.182.206 (talk) 00:03, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You can see on the map that the tomb is located inside the paremeter of Meron town. Sokuya (talk) 07:57, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

I believe that we're now on the 6th different title for this article. There hasn't been a consensus for any of them. Jim Michael (talk) 10:00, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Update An WP:RM/TR request about reverting an undiscussed move led to move it to 2021 Meron stampede. As this page is but two days old, there is no stable title, per se, to move to. Per the WP:TITLECHANGES policy: If it has never been stable, or it has been unstable for a long time, and no consensus can be reached on what the title should be, default to the title used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub. Technically, that would be the original 2021 Israel stampede, though it seems likely there is no longer consensus for "Israel", leaving either "Meron" or "Mount Meron". Probably close enough. At this point, I've move protected this page for two weeks. This is not an endorsement of the current title, but an acknowledgement that a formal WP:RM is the best path forward to discuss a stable title.—Bagumba (talk) 10:08, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Meron stampede
It is a stampede Smtkos (talk) 18:22, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It was not. Pol098 (talk) 18:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No stampeding occurred. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 20:43, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

&, if no stampede occured, then why the heck is it linked in the lead sentence. My brain cannot comprehend that part since the media says "Stampede" (AP News), but Wikipedia is apparently saying no, it wasn't a stampede (What you just said), but it was (lead sentence). Please explain more and I believe the title should be "Meron Stampede", not crowd crush. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:13, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * A stampede is a deliberate mass running in a particular direction, with no regard for who's around you. It's usually applied to animals, and in human terms it's quite a loaded term as it implies there was intent. Crush is much more neutral, which matches our policy of neutrality. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:28, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * [I'd written this before Amakuru's reply was posted - says much the same] It's explained clearly in Stampede. It wasn't people running and out of control, it was a huge mass of people at the back slowly trying to move forwards relentlessly, unaware that those ahead were unable to move and being crushed. It's described in the press as both stampede and crush (plenty of sources for both); stampede is a loaded term, trying to blame the victims instead of the organisers (this venue had been reported as unsafe and at risk of crushes). See the article I've linked for detail. HTH, Pol098 (talk) 21:30, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This is original research. It is not our role to redefine what the news has already laid out plainly; they call it in most sources a stampede. If they go back on the term so should we, but not beforehand. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 22:28, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that we must follow sources, but there are a great many articles that talk of a crush - there's no clear preferred term. I said in a previous comment "Indicative: Google finds about 300,000 {meron stampede}, and 1,500,000 {meron crush}". This on a quick check; it would need to be done more carefully. Pol098 (talk) 22:38, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Looking at the front pages of the world, only UK sources use the term "crush" — the rest of the world uses the term "stampede". "Stampede" is used by the New York Times, The Washington Post , the Wall Street Journal , AlJazeera , Reuters and the Jerusalem Post . "Crush" is used by The Guardian , the BBC  and the Times . I'll let you guys draw the conclusions thereof. Regardless, I have to say that I am stunned by the number of moves that users have performed without doing any form of WP:COMMONNAME research or engaging in consensus building. I completely agree with  here (unsurprisingly). JBchrch (talk) 00:21, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Hebrew article link
The English and Russian stubs need to be linked to the Hebrew article: https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%90%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%91%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%AA_%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%91%D7%A8_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%97%D7%90%D7%99_(2021). Item https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q106651383 needs to be merged with the Hebrew article item https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q106651376. Ethanbas (talk) 02:00, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Earlier warnings and Kupershtok no longer the organiser
The passage was already reported in 2018 as dangerous, and in 2021 it was the first year in over a decade that the regular event orgenizer Rebbe. Z. Kupershtok(בן ציון קופרשטוק) which was commenly known as the Father Of Meron was not at the site. In previous years Mr. Kupershtok was in charge of preventing disasters and planning safety meassures but he had died due to coivd19 in 2020. Shouldn't that be in the background ?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.19.127.140 (talk • contribs) 06:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC) 

Reactions
@ - I noticed you removed the reactions from US and EU officials as you wrote it's "boilerplate". How is it more boilerplate than Netanyahu's? Would you prefer if it was summarized? (I had looked at this page which I had come across in the past: Reactions to the 2008 Mumbai_attacks) &#124; MK17b &#124;  (talk)  04:54, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Those predictable responses can best be summarised as "the leaders of Foobar, Goobar and Hoobar expressed sympathy and condolences" with appropriate cites and minus the flags. WWGB (talk) 05:03, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, I was thinking of removing that too, but probably the section will fill in with the investigation and other aspects of the aftermath. Abductive  (reasoning) 06:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, this is an important, WP:DUE chunk that is missing from the article. JBchrch (talk) 11:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

1911 disaster
I think it is worth mentioning that there was a disaster 110 years ago in the same place on Lag BaOmer This is not the first time that tragedy marred the celebrations in Meron—in 1911, a roof collapsed on revelers and nine people died, ranging from an eight-year-old to a 65 year-old https://www.chabad.org/news/article_cdo/aid/5117886/jewish/Scores-Crushed-to-Death-at-Packed-Lag-BaOmer-Event-in-Meron-Israel.htm Sokuya (talk) 08:09, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Not only same place, but more significantly: same event, same population of celebrants. This content appears in the lead paragraph of the Mount Meron page and could certainly be added here. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:13, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ I've added information on the 1911 disaster to the background section. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 08:19, 30 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The following sentence fragment "a crowd of about 10,000 filled the compound and a surrounding a nearly overlook collapsed" is incomprehensible. Please fix. 73.81.122.188 (talk) 14:12, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Correct coord
I don't know if the coordinates are correct because the article in the hebrew language says that there are others (near the city of Meron) - Eugεn  S¡m¡on  07:36, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The site of the gathering is Mount Meron, not the city of Meron, Israel. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:40, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Look at the Google Maps incident alert - -  Eugεn  S¡m¡on  08:10, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I fixed it. The incident occured in the stairway of the Tomb of Rabbi Simeon Bar Yochai. Sokuya (talk) 14:30, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Map
So in User:Berrely/sandpit3 I have created a GeoJSON map using maplink, but for some reason, when I copy the exact same code into the infobox, it just shows a picture of the world map. WMmaps is a bit buggy, so if someone could get the map working it would be great. — Berrely  • Talk∕Contribs 09:26, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Condolences
I think it's good to have written which countries sent condolences. But I wonder how it is best to be written if it includes a lot of countries. Or is it just good to separate them by commas? Adam080 (talk) 18:14, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * A minor rant here. Nothing personal toward you: I'm aware that these sections are widespread, but after years of encountering them, I still don't really understand their purpose. It's pretty much a given that after a mass casualty, many countries will send condolences, in a manner that's essentially just a function of how close they are geopolitically. Occasionally you get a notable departure from this like Israel offering aid to Lebanon after the 2020 Beirut explosion despite being in a state of war, or, in the other direction, if a country pointedly didn't send condolences when you'd expect them to... But the rest of the time, I really don't see how it adds information to the article that is likely to be useful to our readers. -- Tamzin (she/they) &#124; o toki tawa mi. 18:28, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree in some point, maybe it would be too much to put all of them. Adam080 (talk) 19:05, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer just a summary at least. Officials from almost every country would probably be willing to say that an obviously bad event is bad and give their condolences, a list of twenty Country, Country , etc. serves little purpose, really. &#8209;&#8209;Volteer1 (talk) 21:16, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * We can do without the flag salad that tends to accompany recent disaster articles.--WaltCip- (talk)  23:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

"deadliest civil disaster in the history of Israel"
I undid the sentence, simply because its not true. In the original hebrew article, the sentence has been already deleted.

first of all, how do you define a civil disaster? also, there's bigger disasters, 1997 Israeli helicopter disaster was a bigger disaster in terms of fatality. and there's some disasters with more victims like the Versailles wedding hall disaster. Axinosinety (talk) 10:30, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The 1997 Israeli helicopter disaster wasn't a civil disaster, it was a military one, and less people died in the Versailles wedding hall disaster than in this event. The reliable sources reporting on it (e.g. or ) aren't wrong. &#8209;&#8209;Volteer1 (talk) 10:36, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * A "civil disaster" is one which is neither primarily within the armed forces (police, army, etc) nor terrorist. While terrorist is itself difficult to define, it's clearly the result of an action intended to kill, which would clearly exclude this incident. Animal lover 666 (talk) 06:03, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Thursday–Friday significance
The article currently says Additionally, for the first time in 13 years, the Mount Meron celebration happened between Thursday and Friday ... Is there a cultural significance or implication there? If so, can it be made stated more explicitly?—Bagumba (talk) 07:35, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Shabbat is the missing info. While the revelry traditionally takes place on Lag BaOmer, it is typically drawn out over a few days to accommodate the large crowds. However this wasn't really possible here because the following day is Shabbat, were no travel or bonfire lighting can take place (among other restrictions). As such there was much pressure to cram more people and bonfires in a short time. I'll try to edit the article to clarify (without too much original research). Rami R 08:23, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 08:30, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Also, Thursday night in Israel is considered to be like Saturday night in the West. Friday is like Sunday, because of the need to prepare for the Shabbat. Durdyfiv1 (talk) 11:42, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I've edited assuming that the festivities had to stop at sunset on Friday, the start of Shabbat. But they may well have been scheduled to end earlier (people had to travel back). It would be useful for someone who knows to state the actual cutoff time. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 20:47, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes but you removed my point about Thursday night being a busy night in Israel, which I consider a factor in there being larger-than-normal crowds. I added it back in. Durdyfiv1 (talk) 00:00, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Stairs were closed by police before stampede
the article don't mention the fact as per many witnesses on scene that the police closed the exit of the stairs before, which was the main cause why people were crushed to deathYeams (talk) 16:36, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I would think someone should cite a source for such witness reports e.g. several yeshivaworldnews reports and then post them in the article. This is a very important point that this being overlooked. Here's the link to an eyewitness report https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1970352/i-cried-to-the-policeman-take-the-barrier-away-or-people-will-die.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by POR613 (talk • contribs) 22:21, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeams (talk • contribs) 00:28, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * A witness in that source said "The gate eventually broke and people fell over it, and then... they were crushed". But that doesn't match the video footage here, where it looks like people are getting crushed in the middle of the crowd in the pathway, not right at a gate. Perhaps there was more than one place where people were crushed. I haven't seen a source that's had a clear timeline of events and how closed gates factored in.—Bagumba (talk) 10:04, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Crowd limit
I removed conflicting statements about the bonfire crowd limit, sinceThe New York Times reports that it was never implemented. The government’s plan — a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times — was never implemented because none of the government departments took responsibility for doing so, according to an official involved in the discussions, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the official was not allowed to speak publicly.—Bagumba (talk) 12:01, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I had reverted your change, the NYT talk about a different points, the sources are clear 3000 for each bonfire and 10,000 for the entire complex (which include the bonfrire platforms , a waiting area , tribune and the bridge.141.226.217.61 (talk) 15:27, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You can't selectively ignore sources any claim it's "clear". The Times of Israel wrote: A framework drawn up by the Health Ministry, in consultation with other government officials, police and others, would have limited the event to 9,000 participants but was not implemented.. If there were up to 20,000 just in that one compound right before the disaster, it's not consistent with those limits having been enforced.—Bagumba (talk) 15:50, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The rule says you shouldn't drive drunk, but people still drive drunk. 141.226.218.57 (talk) 16:09, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * But the article is not talking about a rule at: Three bonfires were lit at the same time, each by an Admor, with approximately 3,000 people at each bonfire. And there is a different expectation with permitted when it's a situation where the reader assumes there is active enforcement, such as a crowd with a fixed entrance and presumably guards, vs a drunk driving law where there isnt an officer at each vehicle and breath analyzers aren't standard equipment in cars.—Bagumba (talk) 16:26, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It would be wise to add in that section that even that limits had been mentioned, they had not been properly enforced, and to make it clear that the compund itself was built against regulations, permits. where the state commision,the fire and resuce services and Moshav chairman had mentioned it was not following regulation 141.226.218.57 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:33, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps move to 2021 Meron stampede, which already mentions a 9,000 limit and needing 4 exits.—Bagumba (talk) 16:40, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I moved the limits to the "Safety warnings" section. People can feel free to expand on the reasons they weren't followed.—Bagumba (talk) 12:33, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Background
What happened to the background? Seems like it was removed, perhaps by a Troll. Durdyfiv1 (talk) 00:22, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've restored it. For reference, you can check a page's history and see what happened and possibly recover it quicker. Cheers. —Bagumba (talk) 01:43, 8 May 2021 (UTC)