Talk:2021 Northern Ireland riots

Discussion about the number of citations
I was wondering if anyone feels like there is a high number of in-text citations in the article? Or because it is an article based on a current event, it makes sense for the article to have many citations? Ana34lang (talk) 15:34, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Officers wounded
41 officers injured as of April 6th - source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56646392
 * Updated, thank you. FDW777 (talk) 14:55, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Londonderry/Derry
The official name is Londonderry. The city shouldn't be referred to as just Derry it should always be referred to as Londonderry/Derry just using Derry is misleading and is clearly being used due to political preferences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unclehot (talk • contribs) 00:48, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * See WP:DERRY. Canterbury Tail talk 00:33, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:DERRY specifies the city itself should be referred to Derry and the county as Londonderry. Flalf Talk 13:21, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * As far as I can see, every instance of Derry in the article refers to either Derry city, or to Waterside, Derry which is a suburb of the city. The riots were in Derry the city rather than Londonderry the county. So this is all fine. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:29, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Surely they were in both? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:43, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

User:Pigsonthewing did create Derry-note a while ago for situations like this, although it's currently only used on Lyra McKee. It's worded so as to politely inform users of Wikipedia's house style on (D|Londond)erry, without being a disclaimer or self-reference. This might be a good place to use it; I don't have a particularly strong opinion—otherwise I'd BEBOLD—but thought I'd mention it. (And in the interest of evenhandedness, I'll also ping User:FDW777, who has expressed the opinion that the template should be deleted.) -- Tamzin (she/they) &#124; o toki tawa mi. 08:18, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I've added the template to the article. It is intended to prevent the need for discussions like the above, which occur frequently. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:46, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2021
Please change "the funeral of IRA head of intelligence Bobby Storey" to "the funeral of former IRA head of intelligence Bobby Storey". Storey was named in parliament as head of intelligence before the declaration of the cessation of activities in July 2005. Nobody knows if he was even in the IRA in 2021, or if the position of head of intelligence still existed then. 2001:BB6:4713:4858:9426:BCDF:F6E0:AEF3 (talk) 12:21, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ Seems reasonable. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:31, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Bus fire
Yes, a bus was hijacked, was set alight and was completely destroyed. But I'm not sure it was necessarily the defining characteristic of these riots. Is the use of Category:2020s fires in Europe justified? The article is already in Category:Arson in Northern Ireland. If we had a UK category similar to Category:Fireworks in the United States, would we also use that? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:27, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It's certainly a major part of the riots, prominently mentioned & shown in many mainstream media articles in the UK & elsewhere. That's similar (though on a smaller scale) to how the mainstream media mentioned & used photos of the bus that Hasib Hussain bombed in Tavistock Square when reporting the 7 July 2005 London bombings. A photo of the burning bus would be the most relevant image that could be used to illustrate this article. Both cats are valid & relevant; neither is a subcat of the other. Fireworks are a smaller part of the riots. Jim Michael (talk) 09:43, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I still feel grateful we don't have a category for UK fireworks in this case. Sorry, I'm still not convinced. Maybe it's because, in my own mind, I'm comparing a double decker bus with other examples in similar categories like this and this. I mean, buses do catch fire across Europe somewhat more often than these kinds of events? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:56, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree, these are riots or protests, not a fire. It's misleading to have this category.--Creoda (talk) 10:59, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd certainly disagree that "a photo of the burning bus would be the most relevant image that could be used to illustrate this article." As far as I can ascertain, the bus hijack and arson were performed by adults, while most of the throwing of fireworks, petrol bombs and other projectiles has been performed by children, being goaded and encouraged by older youths and "adult" men. The 7 July 2005 London bombings were a wholly different kind event. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:17, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Which image do you think would be better for us to use to illustrate the riots? In what way is the age of the attackers relevant to which images of the damage caused we or the media (should) use?
 * The 7/7 bombings were significantly different to these riots, though both were politically-motivated violent crimes in UK cities in the 21st century. In regard to the 2005 bombings as well as these riots, a bus was deliberately very badly damaged & the mainstream media in both cases made frequent use of images of it. Jim Michael (talk) 14:29, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The question of an image is a separate one that's probably worthy of a separate discussion thread. I'm unaware of any candidates. Sorry, but I remain unconvinced that Category:2020s fires in Europe is justified. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There are currently 2 images in this article, neither of which illustrates the riots, merely an indication of the lead-up to them. You've said that you disagree with my suggestion that an image of the burning bus is the most appropriate. No-one has suggested any alternative images, but some images of the riots would clearly significantly improve this article. Jim Michael (talk) 15:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I opened this thread to discuss Category:2020s fires in Europe. We don't want it getting hijacked, do we. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:28, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This article needs more relevant images. This can be discussed here, unless someone wants to start a new section about it. Jim Michael (talk) 13:08, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * And as if by magic... Martinevans123 (talk) 13:14, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The Primark building fire merits the inclusion of that category. Wild fires merit it too. A bus being burnt does not. Indeed Eleventh Night doesn't even include it and it involves bonfires being burnt every year on the 11th July. I do note however that it does have the category Category:Traditions involving fire. Might merit being used here seeing as it is a tradition for vehicles to be burnt out in NI every year. Mabuska (talk) 16:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Ha, yes, that Category seems marginally more appropriate. Consensus seems to be emerging here that Category:2020s fires in Europe is not justified. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:03, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Removed here. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:07, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Belfast Issue
There is a sentence in this part (Belfast) which says the police were attacked with "missiles." Perhaps better wording could be used, such as stones, rocks, etc.? 2601:85:C101:C9D0:95F7:5481:FF4:F8CC (talk) 21:17, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, The Irish Times does use that word. But agree it's slightly ambiguous, so I've changed it. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:02, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree with Martinevans123's logic as it makes sense. However, could we keep the word "missile" and simply add more detail from the article to help define it? Example: "The police were attacked with missiles such as stones, rocks..." Jurisdicta (talk) 22:38, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Feel free. Throw in a petrol bomb too there, if you like. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:42, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The problem with missiles is that it brings up Missile Exocet-mil.jpg, as in rocket missile, which usurped the meaning of this olden word.--Creoda (talk) 11:01, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * BBC News seems to be using "petrol bombs and other projectiles". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:39, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * projectiles works perfectly.--Creoda (talk) 12:16, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Projectile has the same problem as missiles in that it makes people assume things like rockets. Though missiles is commonly used for things such as rocks, petrol bombs etc. here. Someone would need to be incredibly stupid to think a street rioter could suddenly deploy a howitzer or mortar or other missile weapon system to fire Tomahawk's or whatever without widespread destruction and death. Jurisdicta's idea makes more sense, though we don't even need to mention missiles, we could just say "objects like". Mabuska (talk) 16:49, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2021
"There is a longstanding Derry/Londonderry name dispute. This article follows the approach that Derry refers to the city and County Londonderry refers to the county (outside of organizations' names, which may follow their own approaches)."

Please change that text to: "There is a longstanding Derry/Londonderry name dispute. This article follows the approach that Derry refers to the city and County Londonderry refers to the county (outside of organisations' names, which may follow their own approaches)."

The reason of that because ise is more preferrable spelling in modern British English. 36.77.73.119 (talk) 23:03, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ at Template:Derry-note. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 07:35, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Darn, that's on me, bloody Yank that I am. -- Tamzin (she/they) &#124; o toki tawa mi. 06:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Ordering of information
Currenly information on riots is organised by location - as the riots are continuing this may become unwieldy as there are riots in multiple locations. One possibility is to include a table which defaults to chronological order of individual incidents but which allows for resorting for other details - e.g. location. I'm sure there are plenty of ways of arranging events, some probably much better than my solution. Anybody have any more suggestions? Autarch (talk) 12:44, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Is there a WP article which currently has the format you'd like this one to have? Jim Michael (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Images
Does the article need "more relevant" images? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:14, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * As I've explained in the Bus fire section, yes. Neither of the article's images depict the riots. Jim Michael (talk) 15:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Belfast-Derry line
Last night's incident where a burning car was left on the rail line near Bellarena has been added to the article.

I can't see anything in the reference (or in any other media articles) that suggests it's linked to the riots. We've no idea who left it there or what their motivation was. I'd suggest it's removed unless further information becomes available that it is linked.

What are peoples thoughts? Whiteabbey (talk) 17:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree, unless there is definitive sources that link it to the riots, I say we leave it out of the article. Jurisdicta (talk) 22:45, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Railway attacks are the arena of republicans, so I doubt it has anything to with the riots. Mabuska (talk) 07:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Recentism
Just to point out this article could easily fall victim to WP:RECENTISM. Mabuska (talk) 16:36, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you think it has? Jim Michael (talk) 14:33, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not think this has necessarily fallen victim to "recentism" — these riots have been brought to the forefront of the news and intel has noted their importance so it important that they constantly be updated and detailed for historical purposes. Thehumancoughingcatmeme (talk) 17:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There is a case that it does fall victim to recentism, and treating it like a newspaper/news service with daily updates is one of those conditions. The tone and balance is also off. When it comes to the statement of claims of "ethnic cleansing", only one source is given, a newspaper no less. This is undue weight. The sentence should clearly state "according to one newspaper" or "according to the Belfast Telegraph". Similarly the lede completely ignores the nationalist rioting in Springfield Road that kicked off unprovoked before moving to the Lanark peace wall. Its highly notable as it is not quantified by the reasons for the loyalist rioting. Mabuska (talk) 08:12, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Whilst all contributions are welcome, I will note the fact you only have 5 edits to your name most of which are talk page edits. So your experience with Wikipedia policies and protocols I am not too sure about unless you have been editing under a different account, which you should declare on your page per policy. Mabuska (talk) 08:16, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with the changes you suggest. Jim Michael (talk) 17:17, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The Sunday Life retracted part of the 'ethnic cleansing' story today (not online). One of the families whose window was broken said it was not a sectarian attack and paramilitaries were not involved Whiteabbey (talk) 21:10, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Why is recentism a problem? People want to know what's going on.--Creoda (talk) 10:14, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Is the riot still going on?
, could you explain why you think the riot is still going on until present? You said in edit summaries that you saw smokes and it is on Belfast Telegraph. The sources I got are this one and I don't think that this disturbances is strongly connected to previous riots. Also, the article mentioned that situation is calm right now. SunDawn (talk) 07:02, 20 April 2021 (UTC)


 * To me, it's unclear. The riots never ended as such, as the Belfast Telegraph article says Protests were temporarily paused following the death of the Duke of Edinburgh. So we could be seeing the start of a second wave, but it might be too early to tell. FDW777 (talk) 07:21, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Anyone watching the news of the "resumption" would be able to tell it was an entirely different atmosphere where it was essentially a bunch of kids acting the maggot unlike the week prior. Mabuska (talk) 07:36, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * They seem to have largely died down, if they start again we can go from there. Flalf Talk 12:50, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Aye, no need to jinx it.--Creoda (talk) 10:16, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

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