Talk:2021 Pacific Northwest floods

Community response
I have some articles about volunteers helping to save the Barrowtown pump station, and a couple other grassroots community efforts to help others during the flood. Would it be appropriate to add in a community response subsection under the Aftermath and response main section ? If so, please add links here, and I can start compiling them. Phileo (talk) 18:26, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm not an experienced editor, but I think that is a good idea. There could also be some information about the losses of farm animals and the spontaneous efforts to save them. You could either do the edit yourself, or put the reference information on the talk page for someone else to pick up. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 12:33, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok then it's settled, the plan is to create a Community response section mostly about grassroots community or volunteer disaster response efforts that made a notable impact. The example I cited earlier was the Barrowtown pump station, where volunteers sandbagged the perimeter to prevent even worse flooding. Any other sort of community/volunteer efforts of a similar nature can go into this new Community response section. Here are the initial batch articles that need to be summarized and converted to an objective report. Additional content/article links can go into this section and of course all are welcome to contribute and edit.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/disaster/volunteers-flock-to-sumas-to-clear-flood-debris/281-24918aa1-ef1b-4c66-a6a6-6232435d1425

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/outpouring-help-whatcom-county-flood-victims-red-cross-opens-new-shelter/FOXE5PII4VA3BBPKKE5EQNSILI/

https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/qvzsg7/comment/hl0r4r8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

https://www.theprogress.com/news/overnight-sandbagging-in-yarrow-drew-more-than-150-volunteers/

https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article255869216.html

Phileo (talk) 16:26, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Lead expanded to cover disruption to transportation and the supply chain
Beyond life and limb, the lead on this story is quickly evolving into issues of transportation, agriculture, and restoration of the supply chain.

I had about an hour to contribute, so I banged something serviceable in place.

Of particular concern in southern British Columbia is the severe short term and long term disruption of the transportation corridor linking the coastal city of Vancouver, Canada's largest port, to the Fraser Valley, the rest of British Columbia and the rest of Canada. The Fraser Valley, which is heavily populated, is responsible for most of the agricultural production in the province, with limited ability to feed livestock in the absence of rail service. The Fraser Valley is particularly hard hit, as all major routes westward to Vancouver and eastward toward Alberta were impacted. Alternative routes into northern BC and southbound into Washington state are limited by the mountainous topography. The heavily used rail links of both Canadian National Railway (CN) and Canadian Pacific Railway (CP) were both disrupted, as well as "four [major] highways that connect the Lower Mainland with the rest of the province: 1 (Trans Canada), 3 (Crowsnest), 5 (Coquihalla) and the 99. ... They've all been closed by landslides and flooding brought on by an extraordinary "atmospheric river" event that dumped a month's worth of rain on some parts of the province's south over the course of two days."

Public concern over these extensive disruptions to the supply chain have lead to panic buying across the Lower Mainland. "Canada's two largest railways expect it will take another couple of days before their main lines in southern British Columbia reopen after service was cut by torrential rain, rock slides and mudslides that caused at least one partial derailment." Agricultural production will likely remain disrupted for a longer period of time, in addition to the disruption in shipments of grain, coal and potash to the Port of Vancouver.

Nothing here is sacrosanct. I've probably overused quotation, but I wanted my additions to stick close to the direct citations, as I didn't have time to weigh and balance and mince words.

I'm generally a tumbleweed editor. I might return, more likely I won't. &mdash; MaxEnt 16:56, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Re-title this article West Coast of North America
I apologise for the length of this post, but by including explicit information that task only has to be done once by one person.

This article is mostly about flooding in British Columbia. So, does "Pacific Northwest" include British Columbia? Here is what I found checking sources on the Internet. (Unfortunately, I could only find one source outside North America.)

As noted, there is no official definition of Pacific Northwest. Nevertheless, my impression is:
 * British Colombians don't consider themselves to be part of the Pacific Northwest. Look at a map of Canada. British Columbia is in the Southwest.
 * American sources include British Columbia in the Pacific Northwest when it is convenient. For example, if Alaska is to be included, they must account for the big gap in the middle.

Summarizing, YES: 2    NO: 6     MAYBE: 3

YES

* The Pacific Northwest is the region of the western United States located adjacent to the Pacific Ocean. It runs north to south from British Columbia, Canada, to Oregon. Idaho, parts of Montana, northern California, and southeastern Alaska are also listed as parts of the Pacific Northwest in some accounts.
 * ThoughtCo:

* The Pacific Northwest, sometimes referred to as Cascadia, is a region in western North America and bound to the east by Cascade Mountain Range and to the west by the Pacific Ocean. Although there is no official boundary defining the geographical region, the area includes the Candian province of British Columbia and the US states of Washington, Idaho, and Oregon. The coastal region of the Pacific Northwest is the Northwest Coast while the Northwest Plateau is the inland region.
 * World Atlas:

NO

* Pacific Northwest and Canada hit by heavy floods, with at least one dead
 * LA Times:

* Huge storms in Pacific Northwest & western Canada
 * USA Today:

* Heavy rains bring flooding and mudslides to the Pacific Northwest and Canada
 * Alabama public radio:

* The Pacific Northwest refers to the northwestern portion of the USA bordered by the Pacific Ocean and Cascade Mountains, primarily the states of Washington and Oregon, but more broadly including parts of California, Idaho and Alaska.
 * Visit the usa.com

* The Pacific Northwest includes the states of Washington and Oregon.
 * Endangered species coalition:

MAYBE

* The Pacific Northwest of the United States is best known for its beautiful coastline, green interior, rainy weather, and spectacular mountains. Sometimes the neighboring areas of northern California, western Idaho, Southeastern Alaska, and British Columbia are also considered part of the Pacific Northwest.
 * Wiki voyage:

* The Pacific Northwest of the United States is best known for its beautiful coastline, green interior, rainy weather, and spectacular mountains...Sometimes the neighboring areas of northern California, western Idaho, Southeastern Alaska, and the neighboring Canadian province of British Columbia are also considered part of the Pacific Northwest, also referred to as Cascadia.
 * Wiki travel:

* The Native American Tribes of the.Pacific Northwest inhabited territory that stretched along the Pacific ocean as far North as Alaska and as far south as California. 
 * Native American tribes practicum:

SOURCES OUTSIDE NORTH AMERICA

NO

* British Columbia and Pacific north-west storm wreaks havoc.
 * INDEPENDENT:

Humphrey Tribble (talk) 13:43, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

The concern I would have about renaming it to "West Coast of North America" is that that would give the reader the impression that the flooding affected California and Oregon. I think Pacific Northwest is an American term and like you said, includes British Columbia when convenient. But I don't necessarily see that as bad or inaccurate. Cascadia would more officially acknowledge the inclusion of British Columbia but I'm not sure if that term is appropriate either.

The flooding appears to impact British Columbia way more, but it did clearly impact a good part of Washington state. I'm thinking that the Washington state flooding may not have been reported on as extensively as it has in British Columbia. For example, I suspect (don't have evidence yet) that some of the flooding in the Nooksack region may not have been reported and I'm hoping that documenting community response may uncover some of that impact.

Phileo (talk) 16:52, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * FWIW, our article on the Pacific Northwest includes British Columbia in the definition. clpo13(talk) 16:59, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I think I read that there were, in fact, some effects as far south as California. But you are right, Phileo, the west coast of North America includes everything from Mexico to Alaska.

Thanks for pointing out the Pacific Northwest article, Clpo13. The discussions provided some entertainment: "...this whole article seems to be somewhat artificially blending us all together, but we are extremely different from each other." "I strongly disagree with the assertion that the adjacent region of Canada is part of the PNW" Both Wikipedians are American.

The publisher's blurb for the book cited as saying the Pacific Northwest most commonly includes British Columbia actually uses the phrase "The Canadian West and the American Northwest"!

I wonder if it has ever been thrashed out on Talk pages. People in the northern three-quarters of British Columbia are unlikely to consider themselves part of the Pacific Northwest. But this is not the hill I want to die on.

"Pacific Northwest" is a convenience for some groups such as tourism, indigenous, and ecologists. Wikipedia can use it on that basis. Just send pumps! Humphrey Tribble (talk) 05:32, 24 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Interesting, I didn't realize that some people had strong opinions about classifying BC as being part of the PNW. Is "Pacific Northwest" more convenient to say than "BC and Washington" ?  That's 5 syllables versus just 6.  But I suppose it has more to do with identity, and who/what group you identify with.  There appears to be no consensus in that respect, but for sure, it is completely inaccurate to even consider Alaska and western Montana as part of the PNW.
 * In the wikipedia search box, if I search for "BC Floods" it auto redirects to the article. If I search for "Washington floods" it does not redirect to the article, but it comes up as the first item in search result.
 * Perhaps if someone feels strongly enough, they can suggest an alternative name ? Phileo (talk) 15:43, 24 November 2021 (UTC)


 * RENAME : Pacific Northwest is a term relating to USA as it is in the NW of that country. Any definition above that says otherwise is written outsiders from USA and Canada. Nobody in Canada use that term for BC : when it is mentioned in the news, it is always for NW USA. This article should be 2021 British Colombia and Washington State floods. Pierre cb (talk) 17:20, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I am a bit late to the party here, but fwiw I am originally from one of the affected flood areas in British Columbia, and people (obviously can't claim all people) do refer to Southern BC as being in the PNW. There is a cultural proximity to Washington State in the Lower Mainland of BC (it was not uncommon before the pandemic, for instance, to cross the border to buy gas), and all sorts of content gets posted in and around Vancouver and its neighbouring regions categorizing it as the PNW. Like, no one would casually refer to it as Cascadia, even though it may technically be that. Pacific North West is a bit more of an umbrella term. Just my two cents. 2620:22:4000:1202:1EBE:7C7F:AA5D:2681 (talk) 18:14, 14 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose renaming. "West Coast of North America" implies Oregon, California, and even Alaska. None of these places are affected by the current flooding, so using that as the article title would be misleading. I strongly disagree with the comment above mine. As a lifelong citizen of BC, I frequently describe southwest BC as part of the Pacific Northwest (and have frequently heard it described as such by other residents), so suggesting that it is an outsider term is, at best, anecdotal. A quick search for "Pacific Northwest" + "British Columbia" showed numerous book results (predating the flooding and of course less "of-the-moment" than news stories) where BC is described as part of the PNW. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 19:01, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

In favour of a RENAME to 2021 British Colombia and Washington State floods: GregV6G (talk) 20:33, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Canadian media (Globe and Mail, CBC, GlobalNews, Vancouver Sun) consistently refer to the "B.C. Flood(s)" or "BC Flood(s)".
 * The relevant New York Times article titles refer to "British Columbia's Flooding" and "British Columbia Flood Victims"
 * The Times of London (UK) describes the affected region as "southern parts of British Columbia and northern Washington state" and notes retail supply shortages in "western Canada".
 * The relevant Guardian (UK) headlines refered to "British Columbia and Pacific north-west storm" (same article as in the Independent, noted above) and "floods that hit British Columbia".
 * The Associated Press published a series of articles referring to the "Northwest Storm" and flood watches in "Northwest", but they are about residents, impacts and warnings in Whatcom county Washington along the Nooksack River.
 * Breitbart ran that AP "Northwest Storm" story, having edited the headline (but not the URL) to refer more precisely to "US-Canada border towns".
 * I can't prove this without running a survey or something, but as noted above by Pierre cb no Canadian calls B.C. the Pacific Northwest. In my observation living here for ten years, Vancouverites call the part of Earth we occupy "the Lower Mainland" or "Southwest B.C.". Around my conference and dinner tables "Pacific Northwest" refers solely to Washington and Oregon. When people here say they "worked up North", they mean the Prince George, B.C. or Fort McMurray, Alta. areas.
 * The French headline for this page, "Inondations en Colombie-Britannique et dans l'État de Washington en novembre 2021" is already accurate.

Article about grounded barge in Vancouver as attraction
"In Times Like These, Even a Beached Barge Can Spark Joy" I was going to add this to the article but there might be recentism and/or undue weight issues. Mapsax (talk) 22:36, 26 January 2022 (UTC)


 * There is already a photograph of a barge, presumably the same one, so I think it's in order to have a sentence with a reference. However, I would like it to be a reference which is freely accessible, unlike the New York Times. Chances are the story was picked up somewhere else. Or, there is bound to be a story in the Vancouver paper.
 * Years from now, it is things such as the barge story which will be highlighted as much as washed out roads and flooded fields. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 01:59, 27 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Found several CTV News articles, using one along with the NY Times one. Using AmE in the edit since article event was binational and article doesn't specify. Mapsax (talk) 22:53, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 22 March 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. Hadal (talk) 20:28, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

November 2021 Pacific Northwest floods → 2021 Pacific Northwest floods – Floods happened between November and December, so the title is not all-encompasing. Also since 2020 Pacific Northwest floods exists, and these are the only significant floods of 2021, it should be renamed to that. Jennytacular (talk) 18:28, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Support move, new title makes more sense. Schazjmd   (talk)  22:23, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. 〜 Festucalex  •  talk  05:55, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Who was this article made/published by?
? 2607:FEA8:1321:6F00:FD94:57CB:2A92:BF2B (talk) 22:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The article was created by Canuck85, and a number of editors have made significant contributions to it. You can view the article history to see their names. Schazjmd   (talk)  22:25, 22 March 2023 (UTC)