Talk:2021 United States Electoral College vote count/Archive 1

Title/format change?
This is my first ever created page since I am an inexperienced editor, so collaboration would be nice on title/format/refs.

I just created this page right now since so many events have changed the outcome of the Electoral College vote, notably that a usually ceremonial low-profile event is now at the height of public scrutiny. With an unprecedented number of objections to the certification of the electoral votes from 6 swing states, we are going to need more space to tally the votes with the usual background-event-aftermath-reactions format with edits.

I recognize that this article is brand new and is being put together on the fly. So the current title can do for now. But at some point we should discuss what its ultimate title should be. I would favor a descriptive title, maybe "2020 US presidential election EC vote" or "2020 US election Electoral College vote" or something more concise. What do you think? Phillip Samuel (talk) 19:18, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Include visuals
Should we include live streams of the Electoral College count with links from Youtube/C-SPAN/etc, as well as pictures of the GOP members of Congress that stated they will object to results? Phillip Samuel (talk) 22:33, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Title change
Move article to "2020 United States presidential election Electoral College vote count"? More accurate Phillip Samuel (talk) 07:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * We could rename this 2020 United States Electoral College and broaden the scope to include the Electoral College results generally. Onetwothreeip (talk) 07:44, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "2020 United States presidential election Electoral Vote count" sounds better IMO. Apoorv Chauhan (talk) 00:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Wiki-Categorization
I propose adding the following categories to this article:
 * Category:Attacks on legislatures
 * Category:Conspiracy theories promoted by Donald Trump
 * Category:Controversies of the 2020 United States presidential election
 * Category:Identity politics in the United States
 * Category:Political riots in the United States
 * Category:Right-wing populism in the United States
 * Category:United States Capitol Police
 * Category:White American riots in the United States — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.252.4.73 (talk) 20:51, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You're on the wrong article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 03:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Objection details
Should objections that lacked support in the Senate (and thus were not entertained) be labeled accordingly? E.g. "No Senate support" or something? AManNamedEdwan (talk) 05:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Failed objection to Nevada's votes
It seems that Rep. Mo Brooks of Alabama was the one who objected to Nevada's votes. Can someone with edit privileges update the page to reflect that? TehSausCabe (talk) 05:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Seems like someone has taken care of this. Thanks for pointing it out. AManNamedEdwan (talk) 05:28, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Objection from Georgia not sustained
Representative Jody Hice of Georgia raised an objection to the electoral votes from Georgia, but the objection was not sustained because of a lack of support from a Senator. (I just saw this on the New York Times live stream, but we can probably find a source when we need one.) How should we accurately reflect this information? --Dial (talk) 04:53, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

A similar situation has occurred with the votes from Michigan with Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene. --Dial (talk) 05:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks like these objections are now being labeled as "Objection not heard". AManNamedEdwan (talk) 05:30, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Or, were. Hmm. Rapidly evolving page. After the dust settles, should probably be done. AManNamedEdwan (talk) 05:32, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Why does this article exist independently of 2021 United States Capitol protests?
Is there a precedent of having independent articles for the joint session certification of the electoral college? A quick search finds nothing for 2016. As it stands, I wonder if the content here is mostly a fork of 2021 United States Capitol protests and we should move to merge this article into that one. It seems like most of the news about today is being covered over there, and will also take up a lot of the background material, a lot of which is also already covered in Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election. Or are there bigger plans someone here has for this article? ThirdDolphin (talk) 03:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * This page was created first as it initially covered the GOP members' intentions to object to the results of the election, the subsequent reactions to that, and then the actual event itself with speeches and full results for each objection, and then reactions to the EC count. I agree that usually EC counting is a ceremonial, low-profile event for previous election years, however with developments over the past few days, it has become a subject of national controversy in a last attempt to overturn the election, so it warrants itself this article with a fuller, more comprehensive description. Afterall, the Electoral College count is what triggered the 2021 Capitol protests. Likwise, the 2021 protests is a separate event with reactions to it that merits its own article, or that can be up for further discussion. Phillip Samuel (talk) 03:47, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * This article came first, and the article about the riot is essentially a sub-article of this one. Onetwothreeip (talk) 03:56, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There is limited precedent, but this is one of the few times there has even been an issue with regards to the Electoral Count. Past issues have been 1816 (regarding Indiana), 1820 (regarding Missouri), 1836 (minor; regarding Michigan), 1876 (significant; required the formation of a temporary commission), 1960 (minor; regarding Hawaii), 1968 (minor; regarding a faithless elector), 2000 (regarding Florida), 2004 (regarding Ohio), and 2020.  Please note that a number of these were minor enough to barely have a section while 1876 was the most significant issue (until 2000) that I am aware of.  This article was created as noted by Phillip Samuel and Onetwothreeip to have been created prior to the protest and is not a fork of that.  I personally do not believe that this should be merged with the protests as they are two connected, but separate events.  The subject of this vote is the formal tally of the Electoral College while the other is a protest against the actions of Congress which exceeded the definition of a protest.  This article is somewhat similar in format to other procedures of Congress like the 1974 United States vice presidential confirmation and other articles.  --Super Goku V (talk) 05:23, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I would support articles or sections for all those elections. Onetwothreeip (talk) 06:30, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Removal from the House
During Conor Lamb's five minute speech, there was an objection from another person to part of Lamb's speech. As a few minutes had past from when the comments were made, it was deemed to not have been a timely objection. There were further disruptions and after repeated calls to order, Pelosi ordered the person to clear the chamber. While it could be added as a sentence, I have no idea who the person was. Does anyone have a source as to who it was? (If not, then this can wait until the Congressional Record is updated with the proceeding of the House.) --Super Goku V (talk) 07:18, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * A source has appeared. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:46, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Formatting issues
I think we need a timeout as there are changes being made to the table and the text above. I would like to say that I would prefer the citations to stay (if possible) and would like to note that the N/A's are interfering with the sorting function of the table. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:32, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I have no issue with the citations. Clearly the multitude of edits is complicating things. Onetwothreeip (talk) 05:34, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Does the table need to be sortable, really? I can only think of three columns that would need to be sorted: the states, EVs, and objection result. I think we can turn off the seating for the other columns from a technical aspect. I assume Onetwothreeip isn't acting in bad faith and we're just getting wires crossed, so I agree we should all be a little careful going forward. Sceptre (talk) 05:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The table does not necessarily need to be sortable, but I was noting it because it is a formatting issue. If it is turned off or limited, then there would not be an issue outside of multiple cells just saying N/A, but that might be an acceptable problem.  --Super Goku V (talk) 05:42, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Needless to say, I have all confidence that neither of you are acting in bad faith as well. I would certainly prefer the table to be sortable, but I don't think this table needs 51 rows. We should only need to have rows for states with objections. Onetwothreeip (talk) 06:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That sounds reasonable to me. If a comment is needed before the table that this is the only objections, then I would be fine with that as it still keeps things neater.  --Super Goku V (talk) 08:28, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Under section 1.3.1, (reactions) the second paragraph contains large portions in present, not past tense. I can't edit this but believe that this should be changed. Patrick181918 (talk) 12:03, 7 January 2021 (UTC) Fixed. Patrick181918 (talk) 12:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Consistency in table is needed for objectors, Paul Gosar and Jody Hice's descriptions contain hyperlinks for the Republican Party, yet the other (6) members do not contain such a link. Patrick181918 (talk) 12:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Canvassing?
Is this process properly called as "canvassing"? Howard the Duck (talk) 21:07, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
 * No, unless you have any sources saying so. Onetwothreeip (talk) 01:01, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Based on this, it would be more accurately described as a final tally and certification. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:21, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There are highly reliable sources calling this as "canvassing" such as the AP and Business Insider, but most WP:RS do call it "certification" (I don't think they release certificates in the end though) and I suppose that's a better name. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:14, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

"Counting of the electoral votes" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Counting of the electoral votes. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 7 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Elliot321 (talk &#124; contribs) 14:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Adjusting width of congressional voting tables
I am requesting changing the width of the vote tables over Arizona and Pennsylvania from 50 to 80% because the current width causes line break. Furthermore, the width of these tables are set to 80% as used in Marriage Amendment (Definition and Religious Freedoms) Act 2017. Jay Coop &middot;&#32;Talk &middot;&#32;Contributions 09:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you clarify where the line breaks are occurring as I do not see them and it just seems to cause the table to stretch out way too far. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:11, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, the screen I'm editing on is smaller, but some line breaks occur where the states are mentioned after the specified members in the tables. Jay Coop &middot;&#32;Talk &middot;&#32;Contributions 10:25, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, now I understand. I just didn't consider that to be a problem as it was still readable.  If you think it is better to expand it then not, then I guess it will need to be done.  --Super Goku V (talk) 12:15, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * We definitely shouldn't be widening the table unnecessarily like that. The normal state of these tables is to display numbers rather than names, and 80% is far too wide for that. When the names are expanded, the state abbreviations make it clear where the names start and end. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:52, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Table CSS issue
When using the "Timeless" skin in Special:Preferences, a large blank space appears above each table tallying votes. Might have something to do with changes to table width proposed above? AManNamedEdwan (talk) 22:19, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Rep. Gohmert's unheard objection.
When Louie Gohmert objected to the count in Wisconsin, he mentioned that a senator co-sign rescinded their signature from said objection after the storming of the Capitol. Do we know who this senator was? Masterofpresidents (talk) 18:14, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * A news article cites that Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin removed his rejection after the storming of the Capitol. While the article does not identify who was involved co-signing the objection, most likely it would be the Senator from that same state. Here is the citation: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electoral-college-count-republican-senators-withdraw-objections-after-capitol-siege/ Jurisdicta (talk) 05:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! In continuation of that thought, should we add, as footnotes, the senators who rescinded their objection connected to unheard objections, or is it not necessary? Masterofpresidents (talk) 16:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 8 January 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: speedy moved. Now that certain constitutional nuances have been explained to me, I feel comfortable enough closing this request early per WP:SNOW. El_C 01:12, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

2020 United States presidential election Electoral College count → 2021 United States Electoral College count – The current title seems to be a bit of a mouthful. I think, for the sake of succinctness, we should try and shorten this to a title that more people could easily remember. I picked "2021" because that's when the count occurred, but 2020 United States Electoral College count could also work if people still want to address the presidential election in some way. Love of Corey (talk) 08:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. Still an open question whether it's 2020 or 2021, so we should look to the sources for that. If we don't have consensus for the year, the article should be moved to 2020 as default. Onetwothreeip (talk) 08:29, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. The article itself, citing United States Code, says "The session is ordinarily required to take place on January 6 in the calendar year immediately following the meetings of the presidential electors" which in this case means 2021. Brandmeistertalk  11:10, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Per “Counting Electoral Votes,” the vote occurs in 2021, so that should be the date given. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 14:33, 8 January 2021 (UTC).
 * Support per nom. --Enos733 (talk) 16:37, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Retroactively, I'd like to note my support for the move. Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 18:21, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Which, how is that even a question "open" or otherwise? I must be missing something. El_C 18:25, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It was the 2020 Electoral College, counted in 2021. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed; it was the “2021… count.” TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 21:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC).
 * Right, but when describing the count, it, as a body, should be automatically defined as the 2021 Electoral College, no? El_C 01:01, 9 January 2021 (UTC) Never mind, I see what you both mean now: 2020 as in a group of presidential electors required by the Constitution to form every four years. El_C 01:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


 * I can see it going both ways here. The election article is 2020, not 2021 or 2020-21, even though part of the election continued into 2021. Onetwothreeip (talk) 01:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I can see how that might make senses with something like https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/2020 having been titled as the "2020 Electoral College Results," but this article's focus is largely about what the process of counting the electors by Congress entailed, with it having taken place in 2021. As in referring to it as a singular (though interrupted) event: The 2021 United States Electoral College count took place during a joint session of the United States Congress on January 6–7, 2021. El_C 02:10, 9 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I missed the discussion, but it was the count of the 2020 election. Thus 2020 made sense in the wordy "2020 United States presidential election Electoral College count" as it referred to the election first and 2021 makes sense now as it refers only to the Electoral College count. (Personally, I believe the move is correct.)  --Super Goku V (talk) 07:50, 9 January 2021 (UTC)