Talk:2022 Tulsa hospital shooting/Archive 1

Victims' names
The surgeon was specifically targeted in revenge, so I can see the argument for including his name. The others weren't; they happened to be there & he doesn't appear to have had a grudge against any of them. In that respect, it's similar to someone carrying out a mass shooting a bar, shop, school, hotel etc. due to having a grudge against one member of staff. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

2022 St Francis Hospital shooting
2022 St Francis Hospital shooting merged into Warren Clinic shooting. Seth Whales  talk  06:09, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 June 2022 (1)
Warren Clinic shooting → 2022 Warren Clinic shooting – Per guidance at WP:NCEVENTS, rename article to When, Where, What naming convention Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Support as proposer. With an event that happened mere hours ago, it is far too recent to have any sort of WP:COMMONNAME. Guidance at NCEVENTS states that in the absence of a COMMONNAME, articles should be named with a When, Where, What pattern. This is consistent with consensus at a similar move at 2022 Buffalo shooting Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Did you even read that discussion? It was clearly marked as no consensus. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 01:42, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I did read that discussion, as I was a participant in it. That requested move was to move the article away from how guidance states articles such as this should be named. Accordingly there was not "no consensus", there was actually no consensus to move. That is a very different outcome than no consensus. Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Where is it written that "No consensus to move" means "a clear decision to adopt a policy has emerged"? WP:NCE also outlines that Some articles do not need a year for disambiguation when, in historic perspective, the event is easily described without it. If we assume that NCE is an order and not a guideline then why don't we rename the Virginia Tech shooting to 2007 Virginia Tech shooting and the William Morva incident to 2006 Virginia Tech shooting? Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 01:59, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * We've already had this exact discussion at the 2022 Buffalo shooting move request. I do not think there is any value in rehashing it here again. However as this is sadly a frequent occurrence, you may wish to contribute at the Village pump (policy) discussion on this broader article name issue. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:07, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose No other mass shooting in a location called Warren Clinic (although a better title could be Natalie Building shooting). Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 01:43, 2 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose Why "2022"? How many shootings occurred at Warren Clinic? Nythar (talk) 02:45, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose I believe for simplicity it would be better to actually rename the article something along the lines of "St. Francis Hospital shooting" or something along those lines. The shooting, while not occurring in the main building, occurred inside a building that was a part of the campus. RaskBunzzz (talk) 03:59, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose proposed move because it's the only shooting at that location. The year isn't needed in the title, and the insistence by some editors that the year should always/usually be included is misplaced. This article is named after the proper noun of the venue, so the current title is clear & precise, with no ambiguity. The 2022 Buffalo shooting is named after the city of its occurrence, not the supermarket it took place in, so it's not a fair comparison. Even better titles would be Tulsa clinic shooting or Tulsa hospital shooting. The clinic, building etc. are only well-known locally, so their names aren't included in most titles of news articles about this shooting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 06:57, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose proposed title; date identifier is not needed at such a specific location. Would support a move to 2022 Tulsa shooting. Bneu2013 (talk) 09:18, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose per nom, Agree with 2022 Tulsa shooting. It seems Warren Clinic is not a known location outside of the local area, and cities are given on other recent shootings, when they do not take place at a school. Eg. 2022 Buffalo shooting is not called Tops Friendly Market Shooting. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 16:45, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Move page to Saint Francis Hospital shooting
I think we should move the page to something like Saint Francis Hospital shooting because the shooting took place in the Natalie Building, which is on the campus of Saint Francis Hospital. Grey13z (talk) 12:26, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The vast majority of readers don't have a clue where in the world that hospital is, and there are other hospitals of the same name. Tulsa clinic shooting or Tulsa hospital shooting would be better titles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:31, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 June 2022 (2)
Warren Clinic shooting → Tulsa Hospital shooting – This name better summarizes the shooting in the title. This follows guidance from WP:NCEVENTS. It gives the name of the city and type of location where the shooting took place. Per the guidelines, the year is not needed as this is the only mass shooting that has taken place at a Tulsa Hospital. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 19:25, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose as written. I would support 2022 Tulsa Hospital shooting. The guidance at WP:NCEVENTS, particularly WP:NOYEAR does not support this interpretation. NCEVENTS is clear that In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors: When, Where, What. For the purposes of this article, the NOYEAR exception only applies to events that are identifiable in a long term historical perspective, primarily through a WP:COMMONNAME. For an event that occurred less than twenty four hours ago, at time of writing, we are far too close to try and use a WP:CRYSTALBALL to guess at what the COMMONNAME will be. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:35, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * My only objection to this is that these are the only notable shootings that have taken place at a Tulsa Hospital, which would make 2022 Tulsa Hospital Shooting less WP:CONCISE. Also, we have to discuss how likely this event is to occur again, which is something that is also named at WP:NOYEAR. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 19:43, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * A key part of CONCISE is to balance brevity with clarity. As a title "Tulsa Hospital shooting" only informs the reader that there was a shooting at a hospital in Tulsa. It doesn't inform the reader at a glance when that event took place. Adding the year provides that clarity, by informing the reader that there was a shooting at a hospital in Tulsa in 2022.
 * The text at NOYEAR does not state that it applies when there have been no other notable shootings at the same location. What it actually says is Some articles do not need a year for disambiguation when, in historic perspective, the event is easily described without it. Historic perspective requires time to develop, something which we won't have 24 hours after the event in question. Historic perspective is why we can name events like Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting and Virginia Tech Shooting without the year, because those events have common names and the article titles broadly matches them. Though even those articles have issues, Sandy Hook is the common media name for that shooting but it's also the name for village which is in itself notable, and the Virgina Tech Shooting page requires a hatnote to clarify which shooting it was.
 * So the question is, in ten years time will someone be confused by the article title? As it stands today, I'd say yes. Without precognition or a crystal ball we don't know how this event will be referred to next week, let alone next year or longer. As such, until we have a clear COMMONNAME, we should follow the When, Where, What naming convention that NCEVENTS says should apply for the majority of articles like these. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:00, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I understand that, and agree with you now.
 * Let me ask you this. Would it be bad form to edit the move request to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting? Sheehanpg93 (talk) 20:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * That I don't know. As we're the only editors who've commented so far, it might be OK. But I don't know for certain. I know one editor has already edited the title to address the capitalisation issue on "shooting", though that was more of a minor spelling/grammar issue. It might be best to ask at WP:HELPDESK for an answer on this. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:09, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The text at WP:RMCLOSE says a move request proposer may close their own move request as withdrawn if no one has commented yet, or if opposition is unanimous. As no-one else has commented bar us, I think you'd be OK to close and re-file it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:11, 2 June 2022 (UTC)