Talk:2022 University of Virginia shooting

Merge
There are two pages about the shooting, and I believe that the “2022 University of Virginia shooting” page should merged with “University of Virginia shooting”. Wikieism (talk) 16:14, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Jones' student/athlete status
Do we know why Jones was a *former* member of the UVA football team while still a student at the University? Had he aged out of eligibility for the team, or had he been cut previously? Mccartneyac (talk) 18:41, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * According to the UVa Sports website, he was a walk-on during the 2018 Football Season but left the team following the season. Petermcphillips84 (talk) 20:12, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 15 November 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Universal opposition, especially given how this was not the only shooting at this university. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 04:01, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

2022 University of Virginia shooting → University of Virginia shooting – This incident is the only notable shooting in the history of the University of Virginia. No school shooting articles with the school's name in the title have had the year in the title as well, e.g. Virginia Tech shooting, Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, Robb Elementary School shooting, Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, Columbine High School massacre, etc., etc. (That is, unless the year is needed to disambiguate one shooting event from another that occurred at the same school, but I don't see that case happening here to my knowledge.) Love of Corey (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This is not the only shooting at the University of Virginia. WWGB (talk) 04:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * That happened 159 years ago and only involved one victim. This is more of a mass shooting, which has never happened in the university before. Love of Corey (talk) 06:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * While there were 5 total victims, I don't think we have enough information to call it a mass shooting yet. For one thing, it doesn't fit every standard definition of a mass shooting. For another, we don't yet know the motive for the shooting, which could have been much more narrowly targeted in intent despite the number of victims. In that sense, it may not be all that different from the 19th century shooting. We don't have enough information to make this decision yet. Mccartneyac (talk) 22:05, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * It's already in mass shooting list articles like List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022. Love of Corey (talk) 02:27, 16 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose — My policy for mass shooting titles is that, unless an event is particularly notable (like those articles you mentioned), the year the shooting occurred precedes the actual title. If the gunman had killed a dozen people, the article would be moved. The Virginia Tech shooting is referred to in passing as such, but other events shouldn't have the same treatment. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 06:12, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Saugus High School shooting, Santana High School shooting, Oxford High School shooting, the list goes on and on. Love of Corey (talk) 06:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose - This move goes against the guidelines at Naming conventions (events), which give an explicit title format of When - Where - What. Given that this is a current event, and there has already been another shooting at this location, applying no year guideline prematurely could result in confusion, since this event could make the historic event more notable in current news coverage. I think it is too soon to decide if the year should be omitted. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 07:36, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This is not the only shooting at the University of Virginia, and also goes against Naming conventions (events) In ictu oculi (talk) 21:16, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Naming conventions (events). —Locke Cole • t • c 16:57, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose, see immediately above naming conventions. Omnibus (talk) 16:19, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removal of Mass shooting description in infobox
Hi all, it seems the description this incident has been called into discussion with specific issue called about calling it a school shooting and a mass shooting. I'm personally unsure of why this is being debated since it happened on a college campus, and caused a campus wide lockdown and multiple students were victims in it. As I'm currently on mobile I copied all definitions of a "mass shooting" from the List of mass shootings in the United States (hopefully its complete) that shows that this shooting would fall under multiple definitions of a mass shooting (for the year lists they have to at least fall under 2 or more). Definitions are below; From my reading of the definitions and as it occurred on a college campus, this would be a mass shooting and a school shooting. Thanks.Leaky.Solar (talk) 02:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Stanford University MSA Data Project: three or more persons shot in one incident, excluding the perpetrator(s), at one location, at roughly the same time. Excluded are shootings associated with organized crime, gangs or drug wars.[13]
 * Mass Shooting Tracker: four or more persons shot in one incident, at one location, at roughly the same time.[14][10]
 * Gun Violence Archive/Vox: four or more shot in one incident, excluding the perpetrators, at one location, at roughly the same time.[15][16]
 * Mother Jones: three or more shot and killed in one incident at a public place, excluding the perpetrators. This list excludes all shootings the organization considers to be "conventionally motivated" such as all gang violence and armed robberies.[8]
 * The Washington Post: four or more shot and killed in one incident at a public place, excluding the perpetrators.[7]
 * ABC News/FBI:[n 1] four or more shot and killed in one incident, excluding the perpetrators, at one location, at roughly the same time.[17]
 * Congressional Research Service: four or more shot and killed in one incident, excluding the perpetrators, at a public place, excluding gang-related killings and those done with a profit-motive.[18]
 * The incident is also called a "mass shooting" by numerous reliable sources, including CNN, ABC, New York Times, Washington Post, Fox and India Times. WWGB (talk) 12:29, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * This is indeed a school shooting and that is undisputed. It happened on a charter bus chartered by a class at a university. It also happened in a parking lot of a university campus. However: most but not all professional sources tracking mass shootings define those with four+ killed and/or indiscriminate targets, neither of which is the case for this incident. Reliable sources such as:
 * * As you said, The Washington Post: four+ killed in one incident at a public place, excluding the perpetrators;
 * * As you said, ABC News: four+ killed;
 * * As you said, Congressional Research Service: four+ killed;
 * * Everytown for Gun Safety: four+ killed;
 * * Mother Jones: four+ killed  in indiscriminate rampages in a public place;
 * * The Patterns and Prevalence of Mass Public Shootings in the United States, 1915–2013. is the prevalent textbook on the matter: four+ killed by a gun in the absence of other factors such as gang violence or disputes.
 * Omnibus (talk) 16:14, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, please note that based on agreed upon discussions from previous pages as the definition is widely debated about what is a mass shooting the incident only has to be defined as such under two or more of the definitions. In this case it is defined as a mass shooting from Stanford University MSA Data Project, Mass Shooting Tracker, Gun Violence Archive/Vox, and Mother Jones, more then qualifying it under these parameters. Leaky.Solar (talk) 16:16, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * That's a really poor conclusion, can you wikilink me to those previous pages where that was decided? (I thought it was just a meme that Wikipedia editors have a hard-left editing bias, but I never would have believed it until this discussion.) Omnibus (talk) 16:21, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi again, please note that the general consensus that I was drawing from in my first response was from the List of mass shootings in the United States and the note of "Only incidents considered mass shootings by at least two of the above sources are listed below." which is stated the various spin-off pages for the specific year starting in 2018 and running through this current year, in the definitions section. All of these pages definitions sections also begin with, "There are varying definitions of a mass shooting. Listed roughly from most broad to most restrictive:" or some variation, something which is echoed on the Mass shootings in the United States page. Leaky.Solar (talk) 20:56, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Ahhh, I see what you're saying. I'm (sort of, they should really list how many sources define each one as a mass shooting since it's not agreed upon) fine with those pages listing incidents that way, but I don't think we should put "mass shooting" in the infobox here since that isn't agreed upon by the majority of sources. If we did, we'd have to include broad disclaimers (such as I did previously and was removed) that many sources do not recognize it as such but some do. Omnibus (talk) 22:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I realize we as Wikipedia editors don't get to decide this, but it would be more informative to the reader/listener if no one ever repeated the ambiguous phrase "mass shooting" ever again, under any circumstance, and instead said multiple-victim shooting for commonplace incidents like this that have happened since well before the cowboy days, and spree shooting for indiscriminate assault-style shooting sprees that began 200 years later with Columbine. This incident has absolutely no resemblance to those and it's just a political movement, that is not acting in good faith, to label this a mass shooting in order to falsely increase the tally of "mass shootings in the United States"... in essence, it's a poorly disguised and bad faith effort to enact more gun control. That said, if it's been decided this way on Wikipedia in the past, so be it here. Omnibus (talk) 16:32, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTFORUM. Love of Corey (talk) 06:11, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
 * As stated, I realize this. Thanks though. Omnibus (talk) 12:08, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Multiple-victim shooting isn't a commonly used term. It's only a spree shooting if it takes place at multiple locations. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this correction. I didn't realize a spree shooting was already defined as multiple locations. Interesting! I think you're right about multiple-victim shootings not commonly called that yet, but I've seen that suggestion in the references above about the controversy of calling a targeted three-person shooting a "mass shooting" as the word "mass" usually means more than "a few" in common language. Omnibus (talk) 22:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

motive
may we please add a 'motive' 4 tha attack? Monkeylady999 (talk) 22:22, 6 December 2023 (UTC)