Talk:2023 Al Haouz earthquake

Depth
User:Quake1234 and User:Dora the Axe-plorer, why do you wish to exclude the depth reported by Morocco’s seismic agency?

My thought is that since AP gave equal WP:WEIGHT to both figures we should do the same, and not second guess the source. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:A5BE:494E:58AF:9E7C (talk) 01:44, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Casualties
User:Quake1234 could you be more thorough in describing your table additions through edit summaries, thanks. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:A5BE:494E:58AF:9E7C (talk) 02:08, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok I will try Quake1234 (talk) 02:09, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, the 115 figure from BNO has the "27" deaths from Marrakesh added onto it, while BNO only reports four deaths there. Quake1234 (talk) 02:09, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should wait for more updated information due to the conflict. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:A5BE:494E:58AF:9E7C (talk) 02:16, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You reverted for source, BNO news reporting that state TV is claiming the death count is at least 632, with more than 300 injured. I'm assuming we have to wait for an official article? JasnReal227 (talk) 06:38, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * An initial edit mentioned 27 dead in Marrakesh. A more recent update from authorities lists 13. Which of these edits can be removed? Borgenland (talk) 07:42, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Number of deaths
@Quake1234 Please do not combine figures. You're hijacking and misrepresenting sources. There's no clear indication 115 deaths includes/doesn't include 27 deaths in Marrakesh. Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 02:09, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the inconvenience this may have caused. I will try and improve with future edits I make Quake1234 (talk) 02:11, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe some basic math is allowed, WP:CALC, but without edit summaries it is tricky to tell what is going on. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:A5BE:494E:58AF:9E7C (talk) 02:12, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Careful next time. @Quake1234 if you're unsure, the talk page is a place to discuss first, there's no rush to push for latest information. Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 02:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Protect page
Can someone please lock this page for autoconfirmed users only to prevent additional phalluses from being inserted into this page? Borgenland (talk) 06:49, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I made a RPP. User has been blocked and the revisions aren't visible to regular viewers. Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 06:51, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * If it is only one vandal do we really need protection? 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:A5BE:494E:58AF:9E7C (talk) 06:52, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * There was another attack again. Borgenland (talk) 10:16, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * See user:Tengil is a autoBUSER edits, which must be removed as soon as possible. זור987 (talk) 10:18, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Also see user:82.117.91.101 contributions. The article must be protected from anonymous users and new users. זור987 (talk) 10:21, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * A user can edit the page thru an IP and they can create multiple accounts. FYI this person is dropping these pictures onto my talk page as well. Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 10:22, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Epicenter
Which source should we quote for the nearest settlement given that USGS and the rest of the media give different locations? Borgenland (talk) 06:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe just say "variously reported as..." and provide all the ones with good sourcing. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:A5BE:494E:58AF:9E7C (talk) 06:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * So far I'm basing it on what the latest report said. But I do wonder if the USGS sometimes revises their location. Borgenland (talk) 06:56, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure it's all preliminary, and everyone will revise before this is over. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:A5BE:494E:58AF:9E7C (talk) 06:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Non-politics and non aid related
Should the International reactions include expressions and aids from countries and political expressions? Found Real Madrid expression here: https://frenchfootballweekly.com/2023/09/09/real-madrids-message-after-the-earthquake-in-morocco/. Toadette (chat)/(logs) 09:32, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Generally notable reactions are from entities that are in a real capacity to make a concrete action, usually state or strong economic, religious or para-state actors. In many cases statements of condolences are regarded as routine and are often excluded. I am raising my eyes though at statements of intending to send aid. It would be better if direct steps were taken such as actually ordering them. Borgenland (talk) 09:39, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * To quote Milton, they also serve who only wait. Furthermore they can undoubtedly plug into the well-established logistics of international and national agencies. (The condolences belong in a collapsed section in my estimation). kencf0618 (talk) 13:22, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You are displaying an arrogant attitude in this article, imposing your own viewpoint on how international reactions should be handled. If there is a rule or suggestion here on Wikipedia regarding this matter, please provide it. Otherwise, I suggested that we engage in a discussion instead of that youremoving my edits and ignoring my message to talk. This goes against the collaborative nature of contribution. Therefore, next time, if you have a different perspective, let's discuss it here instead of imposing your edits. Regards Riad Salih (talk) 12:48, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I was waiting for you to find this section. Anyways, the issue of bloating and flag soups was a holdover from the 2023 Turkey-Syria earthquake, during which other editors dumped the reactions from almost every country on the globe until the page became unnecessarily wieldy and clunky. What we and other editors realized that many of them were routine platitudes that could be condensed. I simply believe that it would be an unnecessary amount of bytes tabulating every country's reaction if they ended up saying the same thing. In short, I am trying to prevent WP:EXCESSDETAIL, WP:NOTNP and WP:BLOATED here before things get out of hand. At the very least, such statements should be condensed. Borgenland (talk) 12:55, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * First of all, I mentioned that we need to discuss, but you ignored the message. I didn't add flags, and once again, there is no specific rule, and contributions can vary so. I'm already aware of WP:BLOATED and WP:EXCESSDETAIL, it's not something new to me.
 * Maybe you're disregarding the complex relationship between Algeria and Morocco, as they are in a state of Cold War.
 * The message about condolences is important and sensitive, especially following the recent killing of two Moroccans.
 * The closure of Algerian airspace for Morocco since 2021 makes its reopening a significant event, and you removed references to the help of Algeria while leaving mentions of other countries.
 * You have deleted any condolences from Algeria six times without providing any explanation and refusing to talk, which is unacceptable. Remember, you don't own the article, and I would like to notify @Panam2014 and @M.Bitton to get their opinion on this approach of imposing edits. Riad Salih (talk) 13:04, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I did not remove the closure, I just rephrased it because it sounded like Algeria locked itself off from the rest of the world. And I did put a summary in my last Algerian move, it just so happened the presidency's statement were routine condolences and offers to send help and support without specifying which type exactly and can be condensed with the rest. It would be more unbalanced if Algeria stood out in that regard. Borgenland (talk) 13:10, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * And I know the Moroccan jet ski incident, but was that mentioned in your source? Otherwise it would be WP:OR. Borgenland (talk) 13:11, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Marrakesh-Safi_earthquake&diff=prev&oldid=1174592517
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Marrakesh-Safi_earthquake&diff=prev&oldid=1174590707
 * Here's my last edit summaries for Algeria before you say I did not explain anything. Borgenland (talk) 13:15, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I am already aware of all the rules here. I am familiar with Wikipedia in general.
 * Regarding the jetski, did I include that information in the article? NO.
 * You have repeatedly removed my edits and refused to include Algeria. Now, you have included it in the first line alongside other countries, which was not the case before. The edit history is there don't select the 2 edits.
 * Anyway please do not impose your own views on international reactions, especially by refusing to engage in discussion and continuously removing content. This is not a collaborative approach. Riad Salih (talk) 13:20, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * No reason to delete reactions. Panam2014 (talk) 14:29, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Nomenclature
1989 Loma Prieta earthquake alumnus here. As of this writing I haven't seen an official name for this one. Of course we'd defer to the Moroccan seismological agency, but undoubtedly several colloquial names shall be emerge à la the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami: Great East Japanese Earthquake, 3.11, etc., hence redirects would be in order. kencf0618 (talk) 14:02, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The following redirects are possible: 2023 followed by the following place names: Morocco, Marrakesh, Ighil and/or Oukaïmedene. Borgenland (talk) 14:06, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I began 2023 Morocco earthquake, which was soon enough redirected to this more scientific article, so kudos to all concerned. I also note that https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%B2%D9%84%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%84_%D9%85%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%83%D8%B4-%D8%A2%D8%B3%D9%81%D9%8A_2023 has the same title (translated) as this article: Province-level seems to be the best for now given the extent of the devastation. kencf0618 (talk)
 * The earthquake is officially referred as Al Haouz Earthquake by the official news agency (see here, which is the province-level. Reda benkhadra (talk) 18:19, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * In which case that should be the redirect. kencf0618 (talk) 11:27, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I second @Reda benkhadra's suggestion. The article should be moved to Al Haouz earthquake 2023 as per the local official sources. Ideophagous (talk) 08:31, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Question about adding the deadliest disaster in modern history in Morocco.
Can it add "Deadliest disaster in modern history"? Let's update on how many casualties are there. JimiDragon (talk) 14:14, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait until the official figures come out. It'll take a while... kencf0618 (talk) 14:22, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * For perspective, the death toll surpassed 2004 Al Hoceima. The previous record was 1960 in Agadir. And as for definition of modernity, the Moroccan state as it is became fully independent in 1956. Borgenland (talk) 14:24, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Maps
Regarding maps, would it be encyclopedic to have a few ranging from the smaller scale to the larger? The quake was named after the province/economic area, after all, and not everyone knows how Moroccan geography works! kencf0618 (talk) 15:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Maps of the concerned countries
Regarding maps, I think that since the earthquake was felt in Portugal, Spain, Canary Islands, Algéria, And Mauritania, we should put their maps too w/ the regions that felt the earthquake in red ?? What do we think ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.75.231.113 (talk • contribs) 17:25, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it's overkill. kencf0618 (talk) 11:26, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Table
Here is an editable table of the current death toll if people think it should be added to the page:

MyacEight (talk) 04:55, 10 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I like this table and think it should be added to the article as it breaks down the deaths by locaiton and can easily be updated. I would support it be added to the article. Jurisdicta (talk) 15:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

"Marrakesh-Safi" or "Morocco"?
Hello, I just wanted to ask if it would be more appropriate to include the whole Morocco in the title, in order to reflect the earthquake's impact on the country as a whole, or if Marrakesh-Safi was the only region that was struck significantly.

I'm also working on the it.wiki article for this disaster, so I'm trying to be as close as possible to this page while adding references and details. Oltrepier (talk) 09:14, 10 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The Moroccan official sources call it "Al Haouz earthquake". That's how it should be called in my opinion. Ideophagous (talk) 08:28, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Actual depth
On a side note from my previous message, has anyone figured out the actual depth of the earthquake?

I've noticed that Al-Jazeera correctly cites the USGS report, but their page now registers 26 km, instead of 18.5. Also, the fact that other international newspaper have all reported different values doesn't help me...

Oltrepier (talk) 09:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The measurement of this parameter depends on the seismometer records and the velocity model used. This tends to give rise to a large range of values. The depth will likely be further revised in the future. The USGS have recalculated their depth estimate to 26 km and may do so again as analysis progresses. Mikenorton (talk) 10:06, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mikenorton Got it, thank you very much!
 * So, I guess we should just keep following the USGS report and adjust along the way, right? Oltrepier (talk) 13:22, 10 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The USGS may stick with the 26 km figure, but within the next year or so scientific papers will be published that will likely revise all the parameters for the earthquake, so we'll just keep an eye on them using the ISC link in the infobox - for comparison the 2023 Turkey-Syria earthquake already has 56 papers published. Mikenorton (talk) 08:40, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mikenorton Right, thank you so much for clarifying this aspect! I'll definitely consider it while working on similar pages, both here and on it.wiki. Oltrepier (talk) 13:31, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Reaction section
On the news i saw that China offered aid. Can someone pls add this Thehistorianisaac (talk) 12:13, 10 September 2023 (UTC)


 * You need an actual source, not a claim that you saw it on the news. There is almost always a source, just search it up. TheCorvetteZR1(The Garage) 20:34, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I found the information that was mentioned above and will add it to the article. Here is the source: https://www.france24.com/en/africa/20230911-%F0%9F%94%B4-live-morocco-rescuers-race-survivors-earthquake-aid Jurisdicta (talk) 10:54, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Aftershocks
Where can an accurate tally of aftershocks be found? So far only two have been recorded in the media. Borgenland (talk) 02:28, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * USGS only lists M4.0 or greater. I am using EMSC to create an afrershock map. The EMSC coordinates data from IPMA and IGA.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 02:58, 11 September 2023 (UTC)


 * EMSC: European-Mediterranean Seismological Centre
 * IPMA: Instituto Português do Mar e da Atmosfera
 * IGA: Instituto Geográfico Nacional (Spain)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2023
Spectrogram source Iris.edu https://prnt.sc/zcZoTyjPbhZc 162.253.9.145 (talk) 08:03, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you have a more complete citation for this image?  Anon 126   (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 10:10, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

2023 Marrakesh-Safi earthquake.map
I have concerns about the provenance of this map and how informative it is. The Euro-Mediterranean Seismological Centre (ESMC) is cited via Map Data, but that link takes us to that organization's Wikipedia article. Following the external link and clicking around their site, this particular OpenStreet map is nowhere to be found. Furthermore, it has no legend, and there is no clue as to what the pushpins denote whatsoever. Whilst it looks pretty, it is not informative. kencf0618 (talk) 13:02, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You failed to click "Source: Search earthquakes". It leads to a table of earthquakes. See also above discussion . I "created" the map from the data by converting the data to GeoJSON, ESMC does not "publish" the map itself. The markers are self-explanatory. The numbers correspond to magnitude. I created a map for 2023 Turkey–Syria earthquake. If it is not informative, such a large size map could not exist there. If you still think the map is not informative, open an RFC to get the opinion of other editors. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 21:50, 11 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I had indeed viewed that table. If converting the data to GeoJSON is not WP:OR, you're good so far as it goes. (I thought however that the pushpins denoted an initial tally of deaths, not aftershocks; it still needs an appropriate legend.) I do note that neither 1906 San Francisco earthquake nor 1971 San Fernando earthquake nor 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake nor 1994 Northridge earthquake have aftershock maps, so the issue's probably moot. kencf0618 (talk) 22:32, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Sources from Anadolu Agency
Hello! I just wanted to note that some of the citations that are currently used throughout the article come from Anadolu Agency, a state-run Turkish news agency that has been deemed as generally unreliable in previous discussions.

Should we try to find better sources? Oltrepier (talk) 10:44, 12 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The agency sometimes reposts stories from other respected news orgs and so far, the current disaster has not yet been a serious political topic compared for example with the Turkish earthquake.
 * For reference: this is the exact status:
 * The 2019 RfC established no consensus on the reliability of Anadolu Agency. Well-established news outlets are normally considered reliable for statements of fact. However, Anadolu Agency is frequently described as a mouthpiece of the Turkish government that engages in propaganda, owing to its state-run status. See also: Anadolu Agency (controversial topics, international politics).
 * In the 2019 RfC, editors generally agreed that Anadolu Agency is generally unreliable for topics that are controversial or related to international politics. See also: Anadolu Agency (general topics).
 * Based on my understanding of this, I think Anadolu is considered safe for statements of fact pertaining to the disaster itself (damages, casualties etc) but not if reporting on the political aftermath of the disaster.
 * Borgenland (talk) 10:56, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Borgenland Right, thank you for clarifying it!
 * So, does documenting official humanitarian assistance offers from the Turkish government fall into the political aftermath, too? Oltrepier (talk) 12:16, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The offer, type of aid and numerical values are safe enough. What is probably controversial is speculation regarding the motives and where they actually go into. Borgenland (talk) 12:25, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

2003 Boumerdès earthquake
Hi, in the "See also" section, the 2003 Boumerdès earthquake is listed. I found this odd, as it has no connection to Morocco aside from occurring in the general area. Should it be removed? Grave8890 (talk) 16:25, 12 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I was the editor who included that. 2003 Boumerdès and this event were similar in geological aspects, both were oblique-thrusting earthquakes within the same diffusive tectonic boundary. It also had an identical magnitude and death toll in the 2,200–2,600+ range. Also worth mentioning I've never come across any source covering this recent earthquake mention the 2003 event, but they mentioned the 1980 one. The 2003 earthquake was the deadliest earthquake on the African continent since 1980, and now surpassed by this year's. I do like it mentioned elsewhere in the article if removed from SA considering its significance but overshadowed by other events. Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 16:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * With this in mind, I suppose we could keep it. However, I believe the text next to the article link should be edited to say "2003 Boumerdès earthquake, the previous deadliest earthquake in Africa" Grave8890 (talk) 17:22, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Controversies
Offers of assistance flooded in from countries including the United States, France, Turkey, European Commission, African Union, International Monetary Fund, and Algeria, which maintains tumultuous relations with Morocco.

I have been trying to add the word organization to emphasize that the IMF, the EC, and the AU (there is always a THE) are not sovereign states. Could @Dora the Axe-plorer and @Riad Salih please acknowledge this. Borgenland (talk) 17:51, 12 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Borgenland
 * it's just a problem of conflicting edits when everyone is overriding each other's changes. As for me, I'm done for now. I have translated the titles of the sources. Dora the Axe-plorer is also editing now, so I suppose after that user finishes, you can edit the article. Regards. Riad Salih (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I thought I got caught up in a crossfire earlier. Borgenland (talk) 17:56, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 September 2023
I request that you put about the people who heard or have been there at the time of the earthquake. For example, I heard it before I saw it.

Thank you for considering our request,

- Simnisia, Staicy, and Kaylabeth 174.31.29.108 (talk) 00:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Please use your own words and cite reliable sources when editing Wikipedia. Copyright violations—that is, content copied from copyrighted sources—are not permitted on Wikipedia. Additionally, please read No original research. — SamX &#91;talk · contribs&#93; 02:46, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Damage to historic monuments
Just a note: if anyone else reads French and wants to add more info about damages to specific historic monuments, this article provides the most detailed rundown of damages I've seen so far. (You can also click on the sites in the maps provided for additional annotations.) I've been adding some info to the articles for the monuments in Marrakesh. R Prazeres (talk) 07:05, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I have also uploaded pictures of the damaged Tinmal Mosque on Commons, at this link. Reda benkhadra (talk) 13:22, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I'll make use of them on the Tinmal Mosque article. R Prazeres (talk) 16:46, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 11 February 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerium (talk) 01:46, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

2023 Marrakesh–Safi earthquake → 2023 Al Haouz earthquake – I haven't come across any web page title that uses "Marrakesh Safi" when describing this earthquake besides some mirror sites. "Al Haouz earthquake" and "Morocco earthquake" are the two most common names circulating; I'm requesting to move to the former title as Morocco is a very large country and this earthquake only affected a limited area of the country. Al Haouz follows the ISC OEB event code, USGS event page and a number of scientific/local publications. Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 00:51, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ as per my comment above. Reda benkhadra (talk) 12:34, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support - working my way back through the various updates listed at the ReliefWeb page linked to in external links, "Al Haouz" seems to be the most often used, along with the non-specific "Morocco". Mikenorton (talk) 14:30, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support: Because of similar reasons stated above. Quake1234 (talk) 23:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment I'll ping and  to get their inputs as they were in the discussion about title previously.Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 04:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ Ideophagous (talk) 08:05, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.